IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Thackeray]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

(Google) is well on their way of becoming the mega cooperation running our lives......for better or worse

I'm not very keen on monolithic companies running our lives. I switched to Google from Alta Vista in 2000 and used it for many years for internet search. But now I've switched to Qwant as my default search site. It's as good as Google 90% of the time and it doesn't track your web activity. But I occasionally switch back to Google for StreetView which Qwant doesn't have.

[dutchie01]

Interesting thread developing into a philosophical discussion about the role of cars into society. I am a 60 yr old mechanical enthusiast and cannot think about beeing without one. When i turned 18 it gave me freedom and independance. It literally opened borders and especially the blood red alfa gt junior heavily improved my success with the other side!  But... society has changed in 40 years, there is more money going round and any low cost carrier will bring you to wherever for a few quid. Already youngsters see cars as different than i did back then. It no longer is a status symbol and when living in the city most prefer to live without one. Todays status symbols are hyper expensive mobile phones or bicycles costing thousands.

Car companies will have to adapt to this changing market and they also have to defend their market to newcomers from Asia. Yes selfdriving cars will be here one day but as long as the automatic stop system in my car scares the sh## out of me when braking when there is nothing in sight it could well take some time....  

[royoftherovers]

And avoid computer controlled systems designed by Boeing ?

[Linas.P]

On 10/25/2020 at 7:35 AM, ganzoom said:

I just cannot get my head around the idea of buying a brand new car that cannot offer near full autonomous driving now. Why would you spend so much ££££ on technology thats already been superceded??

And which car would you suggest? Tesla is nowhere near full autonomous... and will not be for very long time. If you claim otherwise, then you are denying the facts. Tesla "autopilot" is merely Level 2, and until it has at least Level 3 - "autonomous" will have nothing to do in same sentence with Tesla.

And again - "automation" for me is meaningless thing. Unless I can be in self-driving car when drunk or asleep, or if car can drop me off and pick me up from work. Yes I can see value in that, but for car to drive itself when I fit to drive and sitting behind the wheel - that is totally pointless. 

On 10/24/2020 at 2:36 PM, royoftherovers said:

You know as well as I do that they are both not without problems as regards Design,Build Quality, Reliability and Customer Service.

You are well aware that they are image manufacturers selling status vehicles, so if you wish to be seen as going up in the World, then off you should jolly well go.

Have you considered living in the States where you will find your Oyster ?

Yes.. those are all factors, but I have been there and had it... my car ownership history includes BMW328xi (e90), MB C350 4-matic (W204) and I know what I would be getting. BMW build quality was always quite good, but material choice was always inferior to Lexus... Unless you get "individual" at which point BMW becomes much more expensive. MB build quality was tragic, but since then I had tried W205/W213 and to be honest they are very well made. On MBs one sticking point for me is the gear-shifter on the steering column which I hate, but BMW are overall alright. As well I would like to note that whereas between 2006-2013 Lexus IS was king in terms quality of entry-level Luxury cars, head and shoulders above MB or BMW, this no longer the case since 2013. IS mk3 in my opinion is not as well made as mk2, and BMW/MB have stepped up their game. I agree BMW/MB will not be as reliable as Lexus, but they have "acceptable" quality, whereas Tesla does not have even acceptable levels. 

One key issue I have with Lexus is engines - apart of 2UR-GSE Lexus does not have any other engine on offer. Of course - there used to be 2GR-FXE - but it was never fitted anywhere else except of GS... (SUVs are out of question!) I strongly believe that 2GR-FXE should have been fitted to RC making it RC450h, hence RC having GS sub-frame, but for whatever reason that never happened. I could live with 8GR-FXS but it only fitted to LC500h... So as I have already stated - my only 2 options are to get into used RC-F or LC500 or 500h, which are highly price dependant. I mean I would need to get amazing deal and find the car exactly in perfect specification for me for this to happen, which is very unlikely. As well I can have BMW i8 for less than LC500 costs and that is very attractive proposition. Apart of these 3 cars Lexus have left me without any options... so as sad as it is - that is not my choice, that is what Lexus forces me to do. I will always be happy to comeback as soon as they have something reasonable to drive.

Lexus is the same thing for me - a status symbol, just more subtle, not every motoring commoner knows what it is which makes it even more exciting.

I am explicitly allergic to anything and everything Amurican, I hate US, their cars (with some exceptions) and their culture... sorry. I know Lexus is perceived as american, but that is not really true - it is more like Japanese "guess" of what typical Amurican would like and end result is very interesting.

On 10/24/2020 at 5:16 PM, Martin J said:

Entering this discussion at my peril, but I'm an NX owner who likes driving. Please do not try to convince me that I do not like driving!

You have different perspective - "Driving" means totally different thing for you then it does for me and that is fine. You value things like comfort, I value things like handling -obviously SUVs will be more comfortable, but will handle worse, so here is the answer - you will get SUV and I won't. 

My definition of driving is - "blasting on the A roads, taking corners at near limits of the grip, launching the car hard, pinging of the rev limiter and listening to roar of the engine". You can define yours, but my guess it will be more like - "comfortable cruising at 5MPH below speed limit and just chilling". Neither is better or worse, I just explaining that when I say "people who don't like driving" I have my definition of "driving" in mind, not yours.

On 10/24/2020 at 8:21 PM, doog442 said:

so I've been squeezed out unless I do an RCF....which I may do to scratch the eternal itch but the truth is it may well be the M4 or M2 or Merc C43 or C63...with a warranty of course, however many with a GSF/ RCF have a warranty. 

That is my precise feeling - I feel squeezed out of Lexus club... and this only going to become more acute once RC, IS and GS are discontinued.

[Martin J]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

You can define yours, but my guess it will be more like - "comfortable cruising at 5MPH below speed limit and just chilling".

I should have known better 😉

[Linas.P]

1 minute ago, Martin J said:

I should have known better 😉

Just to be clear - I didn't mean it in demeaning way, I am just saying "driving pleasure" means different thing to different people.

[Sazabi2001]

I think Toyota abandoned the N and TNGA-N platform (along with Mark-X, IS / GS, RC and Crown..). Current Lexus IS is the best selling car in this platform and its sales volume is less than Porsche 911(992), which make no economy sense to continue. I have to say Lexus is doing very bad in promoting their RWD cars, a lot of 'car guys' don't even release IS is a RWD car; I used to work in a motorsport consultancy firm and my colleagues still think its FWD.

Currently Toyota has 3 RWD platform, the L / TNGA-L platform (LS/LC), the N / TNGA-N platform (IS / GS / RC / Crown...) and the SGP (Subaru Global Platform, all Subaru and GT86). I assumed the N platform will be dropped and the current Crown would be the last model shared platform. In the future, L platform would remain as the flagship platform and 1 or 2 SUVs (Lexus and Toyota each) will be added to the L platform too. Currently there is no Toyota SUV based on a luxury car platform so I guess that's where Toyota would focus on. The Subaru platform is an interesting thing, it's not as good as an luxury car (McPherson strut front suspension), but proofed to be reasonable successful as sporty cars, so we may see some new Toyota as rebadged Subaru in the future, possibly new Mark X and IS.

 

========

So yes, there will be no IS / RC anymore. Even there is a next gen, it will be a completed different thing, no more double-wish-bone front suspension and 5 links rear suspension for sure.

[Linas.P]

@Sazabi2001 - yes I think we are going into very disappointing future. Majority of population lives in cities, hence having the car is not even that necessary anymore. Car is no longer considered as a thing of freedom or status, so it's driving characteristics and the way it looks is increasingly becoming irrelevant. With this in mind SUVs starts to makes sense - driving/handling characteristics are irrelevant so they are bough simply because they are "practical", spacious and "comfortable".

With autonomous future in mind I think soon we will have literally boxes driving on the wheels, another good car to base predictions on is London Black Cab... which is ugly but centred around being efficient passenger carrier ... and that is likely how future autonomous vehicles will look like:

[dutchie01]

no need to say more me thinks.....

[Spacewagon52]

10 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

no need to say more me thinks.....

That is gorgeous! Apart from the front grill.

Or is it the other way round?

 

Confused.com

[dutchie01]

introduced in China, Malaysia and i think Thailand this year. Based on the Toyota Alphard and off the scale expensive selling for bentley prices. Hyper luxurious and meant for passengers, you are not suppose to drive this thing but get chauffeured around. This could well outsell the LS..

Linas, seems your predicted future of the brand is already here?

[Mincey]

Oh God - it's real? I thought you'd photoshopped that!

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Spacewagon52 said:

That is gorgeous! Apart from the front grill.

Or is it the other way round?

 

Confused.com

It`s Lexannyong ?

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

Based on the Toyota Alphard and off the scale expensive selling for bentley prices

Just to explain a thing - in China cars are mo expensive ~ 20%, then you have 120% tax on top, so if car costs £100k here, it will cost £240k in China. As well driving habits are quite different there, they are literally ~ in 1920's when it comes to driving culture. Not in a bad way, just that whole privately owned vehicle thing is very new phenomenon for them. Privately owned cars only been in china for last ~25 years, and western car brands for more like ~15. So habits are vastly different, as well they have very different market there e.g. Maserati, WV=Audi, BMW and MB are pretty much equal competitors.

I think European price for the car would be ~£80k which is ok for luxury car, but not great for ugly minivan. But yes that is likely the future, the only difference is that when chauffeur become unnecessary due to automation, there will be no need to for drivers place, or to establish where is front and where is back, so the style will be further improved:

I reckon inside you will have 6 seats around the table and you will instruct AI where to take you whilst having a business meeting or a drink 😁

[Martin J]

22 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Just to be clear - I didn't mean it in demeaning way, I am just saying "driving pleasure" means different thing to different people.

You're absolutely right about that. But your guess about what I mean by "driving" was wrong. After I bought my NX I was pleasantly surprised by the good body control, lack of roll, and steering feel (though some road tests had noted this too). So for example on my most frequent long run, of about 250 miles, if I'm not in a big hurry I avoid the motorways and enjoy throwing the NX around some of the fantastic driving roads of mid Wales. Obviously the NX is no sports car, and I wouldn't keep up with you, but I love the fact that a practical, good looking SUV can also deliver some dynamic pleasure on a great road.

[royoftherovers]

2 minutes ago, Martin J said:

You're absolutely right about that. But your guess about what I mean by "driving" was wrong. After I bought my NX I was pleasantly surprised by the good body control, lack of roll, and steering feel (though some road tests had noted this too). So for example on my most frequent long run, of about 250 miles, if I'm not in a big hurry I avoid the motorways and enjoy throwing the NX around some of the fantastic driving roads of mid Wales. Obviously the NX is no sports car, and I wouldn't keep up with you, but I love the fact that a practical, good looking SUV can also deliver some dynamic pleasure on a great road.

Well said Martin.

Now if only Linas would read and interpret and assimilate the contents of the Highway Code as many of us wish he would!

[Linas.P]

@Martin J - maybe I misread you, or maybe I am too big of the purist to appreciate it.

I have driven NX and it is just like any other SUV. Granted SUV came a long way since the early models on ladder chassis and body roll and handling has improved. However, no mechanical improvement can change physics - tall and top heavy car will never handle as good as lower car with lower centre of gravity... well until we drive on round wheels instead of levitating above the road. So I am sorry to say - NX is not special, it may be relatively good in SUV world, but it is unacceptably poor in normal car world. Obviously, unacceptable here is completely subjective - so let's say it is unacceptable for me.

Even RC isn't great handling car for my liking, it is too heavy, under-powered, suspension is set-up to under steer and even weight distribution isn't great, but at least that all weight is low to the ground, car body is very stiff as well, comfy yet supporting seats and overall it has right "from" to perform well, just set-up more for comfort and less for handling. I have accepted it as more of GT car and not pure sports car... and it is acceptable.

Either way, I am happy that you enjoying your car and wish this joy never ends. That said I will stay with my opinion and just consider SUVs as unacceptable to drive and a bit unnecessary to be honest. Which then basically results in me leaving Lexus brand as from next year there will be no car I can choose - except LC or used RC-F, not exactly the models available to wider public.

@royoftherovers - I actually follow Highway Code to the letter in all circumstances but one, I would say more so than majority of British drivers, with one exception - speed limits do not exists for me, I completely disagree with them, they are just arbitrary numbers set for no good reason and not justified by any acceptable means. I take particular issue with 70MPH national limit which is literally outdated, I am against 20MPH limits... and expect of that I have issues how certain "road users" are allowed to outright ignore Highway Code and only cares about their rights and not about their responsibilities. And worst there is nobody to enforce their responsibilities.

I drive based on concept of "safe speed", which is specifically speed which I consider safe considering my car, technical condition, road condition and my experience. It could be far less than posted speed limit, it may be double the limit (when driving past speed cameras it is usually below the limit though 😁)

So far (14+ years) it works great for me, never had an accident which was my fault and only once I got speeding fine which was completely unjustified and far too high as well. I did 52MPH in 70MPH motorway at 4AM in the morning, but it was set-to 50MPH for "roadworks", without any roadworks or workers anywhere to be seen. So I ended-up on "Speed Awareness" course for 2MPH which just further reinforced my views on speed limits being a total joke.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, Martin J said:

You're absolutely right about that. But your guess about what I mean by "driving" was wrong. After I bought my NX I was pleasantly surprised by the good body control, lack of roll, and steering feel (though some road tests had noted this too). So for example on my most frequent long run, of about 250 miles, if I'm not in a big hurry I avoid the motorways and enjoy throwing the NX around some of the fantastic driving roads of mid Wales. Obviously the NX is no sports car, and I wouldn't keep up with you, but I love the fact that a practical, good looking SUV can also deliver some dynamic pleasure on a great road.

Well said Martin.

Now if only Linas would read and interpret and assimilate the contents of the Highway Code as many of us wish he would!

[royoftherovers]

22 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

@Martin J - maybe I misread you, or maybe I am too big of the purist to appreciate it.

I have driven NX and it is just like any other SUV. Granted SUV came a long way since the early models on ladder chassis and body roll and handling has improved. However, no mechanical improvement can change physics - tall and top heavy car will never handle as good as lower car with lower centre of gravity... well until we drive on round wheels instead of levitating above the road. So I am sorry to say - NX is not special, it may be relatively good in SUV world, but it is unacceptably poor in normal car world. Obviously, unacceptable here is completely subjective - so let's say it is unacceptable for me.

Even RC isn't great handling car for my liking, it is too heavy, under-powered, suspension is set-up to under steer and even weight distribution isn't great, but at least that all weight is low to the ground, car body is very stiff as well, comfy yet supporting seats and overall it has right "from" to perform well, just set-up more for comfort and less for handling. I have accepted it as more of GT car and not pure sports car... and it is acceptable.

Either way, I am happy that you enjoying your car and wish this joy never ends. That said I will stay with my opinion and just consider SUVs as unacceptable to drive and a bit unnecessary to be honest. Which then basically results in me leaving Lexus brand as from next year there will be no car I can choose - except LC or used RC-F, not exactly the models available to wider public.

@royoftherovers - I actually follow Highway Code to the letter in all circumstances but one, I would say more so than majority of British drivers, with one exception - speed limits do not exists for me, I completely disagree with them, they are just arbitrary numbers set for no good reason and not justified by any acceptable means. I take particular issue with 70MPH national limit which is literally outdated, I am against 20MPH limits... and expect of that I have issues how certain "road users" are allowed to outright ignore Highway Code and only cares about their rights and not about their responsibilities. And worst there is nobody to enforce their responsibilities.

I drive based on concept of "safe speed", which is specifically speed which I consider safe considering my car, technical condition, road condition and my experience. It could be far less than posted speed limit, it may be double the limit (when driving past speed cameras it is usually below the limit though 😁)

So far (14+ years) it works great for me, never had an accident which was my fault and only once I got speeding fine which was completely unjustified and far too high as well. I did 52MPH in 70MPH motorway at 4AM in the morning, but it was set-to 50MPH for "roadworks", without any roadworks or workers anywhere to be seen. So I ended-up on "Speed Awareness" course for 2MPH which just further reinforced my views on speed limits being a total joke.

Linas, thank you for responding.

One has to follow the letter and the spirit of the contents of the Highway Code. One cannot choose which content to follow and which to ignore and in doing so, one is in breach. Some contents are advice and some are mandatory whether one agrees or not.

Your return to the Forum is welcome to me and others I am sure and your experience and knowledge is wide and varied. Your apparent new found ability to be more lucid, courteous  and relatively brief is more than welcome. Less than half a page of A4  is always preferred.

 You in my opinion, will benefit other members considerably if you spend more of your talents in advising others rather than telling members what you do not want or like or disagree with about the subject of this Forum i.e. Lexus Vehicles. 

Please continue to give your advice freely,wisely and widely. Be more supportive and less opinionated as such advice given from someone who is less respectful of the Highway Code than he should be does not carry the value that it should.

[Martin J]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Either way, I am happy that you enjoying your car and wish this joy never ends.

👍

[Linas.P]

Thanks, many wise words there - keeping in A4 page and being detailed enough is hard for me to bring together, but I am trying!

As well, I generally do not go around the forum spreading my opinion, but when challenged I feel entitled to defend my position, in this case to particular statements:

• SUVs handles well enough nowadays, hence cancellation of saloons and coupes is not as big of an issue. This I think is related to the topic - only having choice of SUVs is absolute disaster for me and I will rather move do different brand then drive SUV.
• and that I have lack of understanding or appreciation for Highway Code. I understand this is devised from me stating that I like to drive fast and take corners at speed, near the grip limits etc. I would note that it isn't necessary a proof that the Highway Code rules are ignored here, but I would be lair to say I don't do that sometimes. So I would rather accept consequences for what I do then lie to please everyone.

I think I have already explained everything in detail, so not much more to add there. I guess the only thing I would say - I don't take law, rules, instructions or anything else without considering their validity. So I always critically asses what it says and if it is wrong then then I won't follow it - Highway Code is not some sort of sacred document which is perfect or cannot be faulted. Nothing is perfect... and especially sacred documents! That is my position, so if anyone care - that is the same logic I would apply to any of my responses. Anything I say will be said after careful and critical assessment and consideration, not just on the whim. If somebody finds it to reduce the value of my comments, then surely it is their right to have their opinion.

Finally, I will always be advocating for what I believe is right, sadly this sometimes means I have to face consequences and it won't please everyone. It is reflected in number of reactions I get and I feel I would have better reputation if I just say "nice" things, but having best reputations was never my goal - I would rather say what is right.

[royoftherovers]

Thanks for responding.

Ignoring the Law is not an option. The prosecution rests M`Lud!

[Linas.P]

Understanding it and using to your advantage is - by the way Highway Code is not the law. Either way that is off-topic. 

Would hybrid Toyota really do in place of GS? perhaps LS is not so bad as an upgrade for GS?

[dutchie01]

Not so sure as the LS is a pretty big vehicle. Depends on where you live but the replacement could well come out of Corea. The Genesis G80??

[Linas.P]

That would be true for last Gen LS, but the new LS looks very "slender", not even sure if that is good thing but sometimes I almost mistake it for ES. Overall, it doesn't feel as big as last gen and does not look bigger then GS gen4. But it does have to reasonably neat engine 500h - I guess nice upgrade coming from 450h.

My point being - GS owners still seems to have a choice to "upgrade", whereas IS owners do not. I guess it could be argue that with the same logic RC owners have an option to upgrade to LC, but here are other factors at play. First of all RC in my books is IS-Coupe, and GS always been larger, better built, better equipped vehicle and RC just doesn't get same treatment. Perhaps if it would have been fitted with 450h engine, perhaps if it had better standard equipment and materials like GS.... 

In short - I think step from GS to LS is rather minor one and even cost difference on used cars isn't that big. Going from RC to LC, or from IS to LS is almost double the price in each case, so normal IS/RC owner would not be looking at purchasing the car in that segment, whereas GS owner might be.

Genesis is interesting option and not bad shout-out. They literally have 3 saloons as their primary cars (targeting IS/GS/LS) and upcoming SUV.. (surprise surprise)... As well I would argue they took interior design cues from LC/LS and it actually looks very nice. Their cars RWD, which is very important to distance it from Hyundai past so they have right recipe for nice upcoming Luxury brand. Obviously, my issue is that they have no coupes at the moment, only some concept arts.