IS/CT/RC Discontinued in UK (and Europe?)

[Overland]

“Lexus has discontinued the IS sedan, RC coupe, and CT hatchback in the United Kingdom, presumably as a first step to stop sales of the three models throughout Europe. From Autocar:

All three models are now listed as having “limited availability of stock”, with a spokesperson confirming no more will be brought into the country. Lexus stock is held centrally rather than in different dealer networks, unlike most volume brands.

The only exception is the RC F performance derivative, which will continue to be imported and remain on sale for longer than the mainstream versions of the coupe.

There are no plans to release the updated IS sedan recently released in the USA, though Autocar mentions that a crossover smaller than the UX is “in the works” for an possible 2021 debut”

Imagine you have to change your car because your Pay per Drive or any other contract is going to end or from any other reason.

What you would to do?

Lexus could only offer a mini-Suv a mid-Suv or a Suv.

Also, a very expensive Sedan range: ES or LS

Let me know what will be your choice.

thanks in advance

[PaulWhitt20]

BMW Plug in hybrid! 😞

 

[royoftherovers]

Toyota Corolla Hybrid, no question,

[rayaans]

I suspect its only temporary. The IS is a refresh and is only coming in petrol form, no hybrid hence they didn't bring it to Europe. The CT is getting extremely old and of course, the RC is based on the IS/GS

I imagine Lexus are working on an all electric IS - or so Ive heard......

[Jayw13702]

I suspect its only temporary. The IS is a refresh and is only coming in petrol form, no hybrid hence they didn't bring it to Europe. The CT is getting extremely old and of course, the RC is based on the IS/GS
I imagine Lexus are working on an all electric IS - or so Ive heard......

I hope so......and I hope it’s got good range as well.

My is is due for replacement next year, would love another or maybe a GS300h


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[PRT68]

Corolla hybrid, top range model. Would definitely not go for an SUV thing. 

[Jayw13702]

Corolla hybrid, top range model. Would definitely not go for an SUV thing. 

Ive been looking at them and in comparison to the IS the materials and the feel of quality isn’t quite Lexus.

Plus it’s FWD and that may sound silly but the driving experience is different


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[Overland]

Thanks for your reply.

 

I wonder what would be the logic that many of us, in the lack of a IS, as we own and we love, would be buy a Toyota.

I had the same idea too. A Prius, so, to change totally.

From a  a luxury sedan to a basic car. I can't imagine me to be forced to buy a SUV or tu pay 70/80.000€ for a ES that it seems a car that is not born very well.

It is normal?

I means: we drive (n my case since 2004: IS200 Sportback, IS250, IS300H and IS300H MY2017 and two CT in family) one of the best car in the world, in a segment that is totally different of Toyota and we "go back to lower level" (let me use this words with irony!) just because Lexus decide we are not (all of us: EU and UK) "enough important" as a market for the new IS.

The want we buy SUV.

Or that we spend more a less qualitative car as the ES, or, at least, for  a big car that we don't want or don't like.

I find it weird.

edit: a IS300E? Full Electric. I don''t think to be honest. And if so, I'm afraid not in EU or UK. For sure not in Italy, Italy now, for Lexus is seen like the market of sheep: UX, UX, UX ... NX, NX, NX and nothing else.

edit 2: nobody think TESLA?

[Texas]

Tesla may be at the forefront in the technology stakes but the build quality of their cars Hmmm! I have heard  tales of the car ( interior trim wise ) falling apart around you! And that is where you ( and any passengers you are likely to influence ) are gonna be dwelling, not under the bonnet/hood and lots of other little niggles not necessarily drive train related!

[PaulWhitt20]

Tesla are expensive and Elon Musk has lost the plot.


Thanks
Paul

[Linas.P]

I have looked at several Teslas, not that I would be buying them any time soon - my driving habits does not fit EV and I don't have where to charge them, but more from curiosity - "what the future may look like".

To be honest I must agree with above - build quality is tragic! And I don't mean 200k miles cars, they were brand new show cars on display! And it is not even that they falling apart, they simply were not put together right to begin with. Worst are Model 3, I have looked into 4 different cars and all had doorline misaligned by half an inch, not by millimetre.. half an inch. One bright red car in Zurich airport has such a poor paintwork that it looked like painted in a shed - it hand literally a hair under clear-coat. Panel gaps .. my god! - please don't get me started! I would argue Dacias are better built.

I know that some people may not be as "pedantic" as me and just needs a box to drive from A to B, but Tesla really needs to fix their quality issues before it could be consider "a mainstream automaker". Admittedly, most issue are with Model 3 and I was told that later Model S'es are becoming better. But at this price range I think competitor would be Model 3 specifically.

[ganzoom]

On 10/16/2020 at 6:02 AM, Overland said:

“Lexus has discontinued the IS sedan, RC coupe, and CT hatchback in the United Kingdom, presumably as a first step to stop sales of the three models throughout Europe. From Autocar:

 

Thats a shame but as a current owner its probably a good thing for residuals given the reliability of these cars and on going sales drop in diesels.

[ganzoom]

7 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Tesla really needs to fix their quality issues before it could be consider "a mainstream automaker". Admittedly, most issue are with Model 3 and I was told that later Model S'es are becoming better. But at this price range I think competitor would be Model 3 specifically.

 

Tesla is going to easily out sell Lexus in Europe, and currently on track for 500K sales end of 2020. Am not sure how the COVID has effected Lexus sales but they aren't going to be much more. Come 2021 Tesla will outsell Lexus quite comfortably as Y production ramps up globally. Its quite amazing to think less than 10 years ago the company only made one car, and that was essentially a hand build converted Lotus Elise.

 

Tesla do need to improve their initial factory quality, but the German factory that's been built should help introduce better quality control. However overall their long term reliability appears better than what poor QC at the factory suggest. Ours is now over 3 years old and 37K covered, the interior literally looks 'as new' despite daily usage, and no real attempt from me to look after it. 

 

Perhaps what's more extraordinary is that our IS is feeling more out dated day by day interms of infotainment, our Tesla still looks/feels as 'fresh' as any of the new cars coming to market. Tesla is also going to retrofit the latest infotainment computer into our X and upgrade the Autopilot computer to the latest version in the next few weeks. This means our 2017 car will soon get access to all the latest software changes - like having Netflix/YouTube streaming, side camera views on screen, traffic light recognition etc. Can you ever imagine Lexus updating a 3 year old IS to the latest infotainment hardware??

 

Elon Musk is nuts, and Tesla operate some very 'odd' practices, but their cars really are fantastic and have driven everyone else to improve their own products interms of tech and innovation. Our IS300H isn't going any where soon, but the latest Model 3 now starts at £40K, our IS300H had a list price of £45K, so interms of cost - which is a far bigger issue than build quality, Tesla is getting there. 

 

Personally my next car is likely to be Porsche Taycan, and that's where I would put Tesla interms of comparison of how good their cars are, as good as Porsche. Compared to our Lexus, our Tesla is better car in every single way apart from reliability, there is nothing Lexus sells that comes close to even tempting me away from our X. 

 

[Overland]

It’s hard to tell, as my English is not so good, but what I feel is that Tesla have pro and cons, here in Italy it’s start to see more Tesla than IS300H as the most famous Lexus is the NX for obvious reason.

I have seen and try a couple model 3 in person and to be honest I have not see all the problem told above.

At the same time I was astonished by the technology. 

Coming back into my IS look like I come back to a car of another century. The infotainment look poor, the graphic look so old, font and resolution are very bad if you compare with Tesla.

This is an important aspect I think, as many customers probably  does not care this things, but there are a generation of customers that really want an evolution in technolgy in his car.

If you come into a UX, if possible is even worse. All the buttons are confused (too much buttons!) the infortaiment look the same I had in the IS200 early 2000’s the only improvement is that you can have the HUD, that in the iS, event in the 2021 model, you can’t have.

Said all that, the problem remain.

Lexus does not inted to offer us a consisten alternative to IS in EU and UK.

The possibility of a reliable full electric sedan in my opinion is very far and, after all, always remember that others car manufacturers are working hard and in some case the are now more ready than Lexus.

It seems impossible to me to imagine to change for another brand, absolutely, but at the same time it’s also a non-option I start to drive a NX, forced by the commercial Dept. of Lexus/Toyota.

I can’t find a solution.

[Linas.P]

On 10/17/2020 at 7:55 AM, ganzoom said:

Justification for Tesla poor quality...

What Tesla Model X goes for? £115k or there about? Not exactly comparison I would make for ~£30-40k market. Surprisingly I have not heard about quality issues with it either, but if we compare against other £100k cars I am sure it would not score very well. So In conclusion - Tesla comes last when we consider build quality for price. Further, it is still niche - very few people can actually drive Tesla considering current infrastructure. Yes Tesla doing well at the moment, but eventually they will reach hard limit of people who could buy Tesla.

You right to say that Lexus does not do too well in Europe and I always considered it is because they "don't want to"... I know sounds counter intuitive, but by bringing 1 in 3 model to the market I don't understand what they expect. As well in US Lexus is "value" alternative for BMW and MB, where you could get Lexus at good 10-20% cheaper and better equipped. In Europe Lexus is actually more expensive and that is not the way you take over the market. The way Lexus took over US was by having LS400 as a loss leader and it really worked. However, there is little to convince me to pay premium on new Lexus over BMW in Europe, especially considering very limited choice. Why they do it the way they do - I have no clue, but clearly they do not have competitive offer in Europe and even worse offer in UK.

This whole issue is not made better, by Lexus axing another 3 models and going into total obscurity in following years. There are prediction that they will comeback to EU with EV or PHEVs, but it will be at least 2-3 years before that happens. If they would consider Europe as important market surely they could have prepared PHEVs for the launch at the same time.

 

[royoftherovers]

The LS was introduced to the U.S. market as a "loss leader", but, a "loss leader" of the highest quality.

I have spent the last 6 months on  a Tesla Owners Forum and could not believe the appalling quality of the finished product which the American buyers were essentially, forced to accept. Paintwork, Fit Lines and Software all come to mind.

[Linas.P]

4 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

The LS was introduced to the U.S. market as a "loss leader", but, a "loss leader" of the highest quality.

I have spent the last 6 months on  a Tesla Owners Forum and could not believe the appalling quality of the finished product which the American buyers were essentially, forced to accept. Paintwork, Fit Lines and Software all come to mind.

Loss leader doesn't have to be a bad product and argument is that LS wasn't true "loss leader", because in the end of the day Lexus made profit over few years after introduction. Even if they lost money in the first year - that is not unusual for introduction of new brand, setting-up dealership network, training mechanics etc. But the point remains - they have never done that in Europe and one has to pay premium to get into Lexus here.. which makes it hard sell considering brand does not have much recognition yet.

I wonder if Lexus being so successful in US made mistake by considering themselves an established brand when they started sales in Europe? Felt, like they didn't need to discount their models to get traction in the beginning. Whereas reality is that they made a move on the stronghold of European makers. Or did they realised that they will have uphill battle and never really bothered to really compete with BMW and MB? Who knows.. 

[ganzoom]

6 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

 

I have spent the last 6 months on  a Tesla Owners Forum and could not believe the appalling quality of the finished product which the American buyers were essentially, forced to accept. Paintwork, Fit Lines and Software all come to mind.

 

It depends on what youre priorities are in a car. If its reliability than don't go near Tesla, if you want the best tech Tesla is so far ahead its not even funny anymore.

Lexus will soon be a niche brand if they don't get competitive EVs to market. 

[ganzoom]

6 hours ago, Linas.P said:

What Tesla Model X goes for? £115k or there about? .

 

 

Ours was £71k after options, within £5k of an equivalent spec Q7. The £100k version is the one that does 0-60 in sub 3 seconds, and 1/4 mile quicker than a Ferrari F40 or most Lambos. In that regard given most Ferraris/Lambos can only seat 2, and cost more than £100k the top spec Teslas are "cheap'.

 

Both the Model 3 and Y are much cheaper than the S/X. Though ideally Tesla needs the prices to be about another 10%.

 

Tesla is just about the only car manufacturer whos busy building new factories at the moment rather than shutting in them down.

 

The NX/RX is whats keeps Lexus afloat right now, Q4 sales of both in the US will show just how much Lexus has to worry about the Model Y eating into sales.

[royoftherovers]

10 hours ago, ganzoom said:

 

It depends on what youre priorities are in a car. If its reliability than don't go near Tesla, if you want the best tech Tesla is so far ahead its not even funny anymore.

Lexus will soon be a niche brand if they don't get competitive EVs to market. 

I understand what you say Gang. But what is the point of me sitting in my Tesla, communicating with interstellar-space when the flipping car can`t even get me to the launch pad ?

[Overland]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

I understand what you say Gang. But what is the point of me sitting in my Tesla, communicating with interstellar-space when the flipping car can`t even get me to the launch pad ?

I honestly don't think the question is "interstellar travel" but what kind of client there will be in the future.

If we think that future customers will love the smoky rumble of petrol or diesel engines, then in my opinion, we are wrong.

Perhaps today it is easy to make fun of Tesla's technology, but we must also take note that ALL the car manufacturers have accelerated strongly (and much faster than Lexus) on the technology of electric vehicles, precisely because in that of hybrid vehicles all have failed to technological level, while Lexus was the leader.

It is therefore clear that they no longer looked at Lexus, but at Tesla: and they were inspired by it.

We know today that the problem of autonomy is almost over.

Today, most vehicles have minimalist and integrated consoles with suitable screens, Mercedes has a single global screen that includes the entire dashboard: while Tesla develops this vertically, Mercedes has developed it horizontally, but the creative matrix is the same: before of Tesla nobody had integrated the LCDs in this sense or as control units.

Lexus, on the other hand, does not have any car, not even the LS with an advanced infotainment system truly connected (the "connected services", if you remember we talked about them for a long time, are totally obsolete) that allows you to know the status of the car at any time, to command it, to manage it as Tesla has and as other car manufacturers are doing, with keys that can be controlled from smartphones, management from apps and so on.

Lexus launches the UX for a young segment, accustomed to more minimalist touch screens and interior design, and fills it with a thousand buttons scattered around the dashboard, with a mini screen that I had, as I said, practically the same in my early IS200 2000.
I had some difficulties in orienting myself when driving.

In short, I understand the irony about Tesla and the technology that revolves around it, which after decades LED to a NASA mission in space by freeing the cockpit of the shuttle of old potentiometers and levers and using only two touch screens, and a pair of iPads. , fixed on the leg of the astronauts.
But at the same time, as observers and customers, we cannot avoid the fact that sooner or later, like it or not, all cars will at least be like this.

Even Lexus, like it or not, will have to think ... of course if it will be interested in staying on a certain type of market and maybe it is already doing it ... or maybe it will surprise us with hydrogen technologies ... nobody knows what they are doing in their laboratories What we do know is that instead they are losing a specific set of customers, including many of us here who will have to change their cars soon and can only choose between SUVs or sedans that are much more expensive than their IS.
Or maybe buy an RC, as I would like, but it will probably be discontinued.

Could it also be that on a marketing level this is exactly what Lexus wants, that is to cut out the "old dads" who drive a sedan and invest in the "young fashion people" who drive an SUV and only the "rich people" who can afford an ES or an LS?

Who knows?

Although the path of the hybrid, as far as I'm concerned, could still be widely practicable given its technological potential of which Lexus is the master, as it is now and with current technologies, in my opinion it will not lead the Japanese house anywhere and this will happen very, very soon.

Probably, seeing how they are moving here in the EU and the UK, much sooner than they themselves think.

[royoftherovers]

Cris, that is a wonderful post, thank you. You have taken a wide ranging view of tomorrow and the day following.

Me? I am lucky enough to not be able to see "tomorrow" and in terms of Carl Sagan`s Cosmic Clock none of us alive today will get past 2 seconds to midnight that we are currently fixed at in the last hour of the last day,of the last month of the last years that have existed since the Universe began.

Seriously, do let us have some more Posts like that one. Brilliant.

[Linas.P]

I do not make fun of Tesla technology by the way, I agree that their infotainment system is one of the best (form millennial standards), they EV tech is leading... Although I think BMW, Porsche, Audi and several other manufacturers are very close nowadays, their "autopilot" system although flawed is the only one which could practically use today... so there are a lot of thing which they do well.

What they don't do well is build quality and even materials, it may have something to do with veganism, but I don't think they even have proper leather seats anywhere and to be fair all materials feels really cheap to touch... I cannot find comparison in car world, but if you imagine cheap sofa which says "PU Leather" on the sticker as if it is good thing.. that is the level of Tesla quality. To put it mildly - it is bad. How much of an issue it is? Depends what type of person you are and what is important for you in the car. When I dove LC I was blown away by build quality and material quality, but that is because I am person who cares about it - I have not seen car in  the same league as LC (and I seen a lot of cars!). Some people care more about feeling like they are "environmentally friendly" and don't care about build quality that much, and that is commendable... 

Now what I feel is major issue for me in Tesla... they typical client and their propositions is middle class american who lives in suburban area in massive detached house with garage and proper charging outlet, and travels ~60-80 miles to work in the city daily. That is where Tesla shines - it has enough range to go both ways even if you not going to charge it at work and have some range to spare. Beautiful!... yet completely useless in UK and most of EU. Yes there are some people who do travel 60-80miles to work each day in the city, but it is small minority. Majority who have to travel into city and especially that far will use public transport.

So what niche Tesla has in European market? They are trying to appeal to city-dwellers, EVs have favourable tax rates and can access city centres free, as well can find parking more easily. However, with their 200-300 miles range they are massive overkill for city driving, yet they are still not suitable for longer journeys and higher speeds on European motorways. Even worse, compared to american suburbs cities do not have infrastructure required for EVs, majority of residents live in blocks and majority of blocks do not have charging facilities or even parking, to potential customer base in EU is much lower. You need to be high earning middle class to own Tesla, live in house with at least driveway and commute to work in car - that is very rare. So what are current buyers - either EV believers/promoters or minority which fits the target market. EVs in EU are not mass market product and it won't be for a while.

But I am not saying there are no future for EVs in EU, for example there is British company Arrival (just received £100million investment from Kia/Hyundai) and they are making EV delivery vans. And they have solid business plan and the target market where they can take majority stake shortly. You see so called "last mile" delivery truck/vans do not cover wast distance ~120-140 miles on average, 200 miles tops. And they are used all day every day in city traffic where EVs are most advantageous. Not only they can deliver price parity for sales, but they can deliver real business advantages in form of reduced maintenance and ownership costs to the business. It won't be long before all amazon, DHL and Post Office vans will be made by them. But Tesla... not they don't have short terms future in EU or UK... maybe in distant future when ICE get's banned they will become relevant... And that is why other automakers are not rushing into this market. And the same reason why Honda E, eGolf or even Leaf makes much more sense here.

[dutchie01]

What i will go for?  AUDI Q4 E-TRON.   just have a look at the Audi website.

[Linas.P]

It is SUV, so my interest ends there 🙂 

But as I said competition to Tesla is not far behind and I think soon it will get interesting.