Brake warping

[Shahpor]

Hello all,

First, let me say that I know that brakes don't actual warp, but I said it for simplicity's sake

I am in need of your assistance.

January last year I have my front discs and pads changed at Lexus Reading (there was some discussion regarding the price I paid on here at the time) because I was experiencing a judder under braking.  The new discs and pads appeared to fix the problem.

Fast forward to a couple of weeks ago and I started experiencing the same issue - juddering again.  So, today I popped into the dealer for a diagnosis and they came back with excessive disc run out on my NSF disc.

Now, here is the annoying part, not only do I need a new set of brakes 18 months (and 14,000 miles) later, but they are claiming it is because I hold the brake pedal down after coming to a stop!  I understand that a local heat spot is generated by doing this, but in 25 years of driving I have never had a car suffer from doing it.

So, I was wondering if anyone had anything similar happen?  Do you hold the brakes down at the traffic lights without any problems?

Thank you.

[OldTrout]

20 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

  Do you hold the brakes down at the traffic lights without any problems?

Yes. It stops the car creeping forward!

John

[royoftherovers]

I leave my foot on the brake too, sufficient to stop the car moving forward whilst stationary

[Shahpor]

Exactly as I, and I suspect a majority of people, do.

So you can imagine my surprise when they claimed galling I found it when they suggested such a thing!

I have sent an email to the service manager, so I hope to hear some better news tomorrow.

Thanks chaps.

[Shiner]

Lexus Reading , how can I put it without being rude! I bought my Lexus RX450h from them . The sales guy I was dealing with was brilliant and very professional. But when I went to buy the car, it was such a bad experience with his superiors , that I should have walked away!

They will never see me again. I’d go to Lexus Guildford instead and stay with friends as and when these crazy C-19 days are behind us

[Barry14UK]

Certainly holding the brakes on whilst stationary if car has just previously had the brakes strongly applied can cause pad material to transfer to the discs.  However, if this is the case, I would expect both front discs to be similarly affected.  Ask them to explain the discrepancy if you have not yet done so.  If the pads were sticking in the caliper this might be a possibility  but should have been determinable when individual brake performance plotted and was not offered as a base cause of problem.

[Mihanicos]

This is the first time I hear of such a lot of hot air from people who are supposed to be professionals. If this happens in uk  what would they expect to happen in hot countries like UAE!

I changed my front rotors by originals some time ago and as far as I remember, there is no brand engaved on them, only the minimum thickness.

I would conclude that they fitted rotors out of a rejected batch or non original rotors. Inferior quality and lower price is associated with poor casting  and machining resulting in poor performance.

Chris

 

 

[NemesisUK]

I would get brake judder after a lot of town driving, in my CLS55 but this disappeared after a couple of high speed stops. 

The most common cause of brake judder is not ensuring that the disc to hub interface is spotlessly clean when replacing the discs. Just the smallest spec of rust and crud can throw the disc out and after a period of use cause judder or more descriptively, a pulsing on application.

[johnatg]

You should always check run-out when fitting new discs. Far too many mechanics don't do it, because it is a bit time-consuming. It entails cleaning the hub/disc surfaces as Peter says, but also possibly changing the position of the disc relative to the hub to get the smallest possible run out. If you don't do it the disc may eventually wear unevenly and cause judder. Warranty claims for uneven disc thickness are almost always rejected because the manufacturers say they were fitted incorrectly, which is probably true.

And is probably the case here. But proving it after 18 months may be somewhat difficult to say the least.

[C Mclean]

Woo Hoo, a topic where everyone is calling them “brakes” instead of “breaks” great to see. Ha Ha.....

Never trust an English teacher from Germany, especially is he’s called Otto Korekt..

[Shahpor]

Thanks all, very useful suggestions.

I have actually been a customer of Lexus Reading for quite some time now and they have always been impeccable.

What is mentioned here makes sense, but as John alluded to, it could be hard to prove at this point.  The other issue is that this is the second this has happened, so it seems unlikely to be just a bad batch of discs.  My issue is that if the underlying cause isn't resolved, what's to stop it happening again?

I am glad that you agree with my assessment regarding holding the brakes at traffic lights.

Also, somewhat disappointingly, I have had no response from the service manager so far either.

At this point, I am thinking of getting the discs skimmed and see what happens.

Thanks again.

[ColinBarber]

20 hours ago, Shiner said:

I’d go to Lexus Guildford instead and stay with friends as and when these crazy C-19 days are behind us

And I've moved from using Guildford to Reading after they damaged my car on two separate occasions and did a very poor job on another occasion - although I may have to use them for a service coming up soon as Reading aren't providing courtesy cars at the moment 😬

[plexus914]

Known problem with cars in combination with an automatic transmission.

 

What's to stop it happening again?

How about avoiding dead stops and heat spots by pressing and releasing the brake a few times?

Always leave some meters for creeping forward on a traffic light.

 

[Shahpor]

Well, this is their answer:

"I have looked into the brake judder on your vehicle and there are a lot of different reasons as to why a brake disc can warp,

Lexus give a 12-month unlimited mileage warranty on the brake discs and ss they were fitted 18 months ago, they are too far out of manufactures warranty,

The cost of brake pads and discs is a fixed price repair, so it is already a heavily discounted price

 

I’m sorry but we will not be able to offer any discount on this repair"

 

Not a particularly helpful reply.  I am now looking into getting the discs skimmed but even that is looking like £200 ish

[royoftherovers]

Lexus Indie Garages (1).docx Time to consider an Indie Shahpor ? I`ve attached the current list.

[johnatg]

Not really surprising

Re skimming - don't bother. Look on the bay - you can get pads and discs for way less and the labour's the same - you would need new pads.

It's never worthwhile skimming normal cars brake discs.

Sent from my PSP7551DUO using Tapatalk

[Shahpor]

Thanks John's

Normally I wouldn't look at skimming either, except that it costs at least £345 for new discs and pads, whereas skimming is less than £200 and at my last service it was noted that plenty of life was left in them.

Although I have just had a call from the skimming place to say that they may not be able to do it because it is a hybrid, so I may have no choice but to go ahead.

[OldTrout]

Shahpor,

Has anyone actually measured the warping?

I wonder in view of advice on this thread if removing the rotors, thoroughly cleaning the hub and flange and refitting in orientation which gives least run-out might be worth a try.

John

[Vlady]

1 hour ago, Shahpor said:

Thanks John's

Normally I wouldn't look at skimming either, except that it costs at least £345 for new discs and pads, whereas skimming is less than £200 and at my last service it was noted that plenty of life was left in them.

Although I have just had a call from the skimming place to say that they may not be able to do it because it is a hybrid, so I may have no choice but to go ahead.

Shahpor, you are right regards the price of the new discs, our cars have massive front discs and they cost much more than lets say GS300h would. 

If you remember we were all surprised at the price Lexus charged you initially, it was a very good price.

What I want to say, I had a very similar issue (I think I still some times do) with brakes - pulsing, and whatever I did it didn't help, I tried a few hard stops, I lubricated pins and slides, I changed pads and at the beginning it was slightly better but then judder was coming back, actually it got worse after a few hard brakes. 

So I phoned a couple of places in Glasgow regards skimming the front discs, the price would be just under £100 per disc, the main reason is that they are massive!

So, some company have you remove the front discs and some can do it while the brake discs are on the car, bare in mind. Anyway, none of the companies were able to help as one of them had a broken machine and a 2nd one i can't remember tbh.

So I started to talk to my wife, preparing her basically that I need to spend quite a few pennies on a new brakes hoping it will fix the problem, bare in mind, at that point I already had 4 new sets of pads all round, when she said that her workshop at work (she works in a big factory that do pumps) might help, next day she phoned me and said that the guys can do it and they do brake discs ALL THE TIME but they need to be removed. By then, for me to remove both front discs (I re-lubricated them twice within 2 months) would take 20 minutes, so I removed both discs and the guys skimmed them, I tell you, these brakes were never that good, it actually made me stop thinking of changing the car as by that time I was really ****** off with the quality of braking! 

So, it was all done about 8-9k miles ago, when I said it sometimes comes back, I was not joking, I am not sure why it is though, it is mostly at slow speeds, just before stopping but in most times the brakes are fine. May be yours do need to be lubricated, cleaned and put back together, now I do it to Lexus brakes this procedure every 4 months or so, last time it was done in April, took me couple of hours.

So, if your discs have plenty life in them, take them to any machine shop around and get them skimmed, with the mileage you do they will easily last another couple of years! Especially if no one can promise that new discs won't have the same issue, get more out of your old ones!

Do check any machine shop 1st, before you go to people who specialise on it, you might pay half the price and for a distance cnc machinist it is a pretty simple operation!

Shahpor, keep us updated and good luck, I do hope you will sort the brakes!

By the way, I do hold the car as well by brakes while stationary at the traffic.

[royoftherovers]

A great post Vlad.

[Vlady]

19 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

A great post Vlad.

Thanks John, I usually do not write that much, unless I experienced it myself which is in this case I did. I also would not suggest above if the discs brakes were worn close to a minimum but I know Shahpor's discs should be almost new, so little skimming won't heart them, well, unless you have money to pay for all new discs and pads. 🙂

[Britprius]

3 hours ago, Shahpor said:

Thanks John's

Normally I wouldn't look at skimming either, except that it costs at least £345 for new discs and pads, whereas skimming is less than £200 and at my last service it was noted that plenty of life was left in them.

Although I have just had a call from the skimming place to say that they may not be able to do it because it is a hybrid, so I may have no choice but to go ahead.

The front brakes on the GS450H are no different to the non hybrid versions as there is no drive to the front wheels. So I do not see the problem of it being a hybrid. If you find a local machine shop, and take the discs to them to be skimmed they will probably charge you less than £50 to skim them.

John.

[Shahpor]

Thanks chaps (and especially Vlad)

So the latest is that Lexus Reading are refusing to budge and are saying there is nothing they can do.

Anyway, I tried a local skimming place and they won't do it because it is a hybrid.  He mentioned something about needing to plug it in to a computer to wind the pistons back into the calipers?  Also, they were afraid the pistons would jump out because of the electric accumulator.

So, the only options I now have are:

1. Get the dealer to change the brakes again
2. Find a company that will skim brakes on a hybrid in the local area
3. Live with the juddering for now

I am loathed to get them changed again, especially since, as Vlad says, they are not that worn.  Another annoying aspect is that my brakes weren't worn out the last time either, so I probably changed them unnecessarily then as well.

[Britprius]

The pistons on the front of the GS just push back the same as any other non hybrid vehicle. Disconnecting the 12 volt Battery or pulling the two ABS relays will prevent any risk of piston movement.

John.

[Shahpor]

Thanks John.

I figured as much but I think the garage just didn't want to take the risk.