A wobbly problem.

[The-Acre]

I wonder if anyone can impart some words of wisdom here.  I'm getting a wheel wobble at about 70mph(🤭) but perhaps not the usual feel, it just feels like there's some play somewhere.  I've got new shock absorbers, new drop links and D bushes, plus I've got four new tyres and I've had a four wheel alignment done and the balancing checked twice. It's just past the MOT without an advisory and I've had two competent mechanics check it but both say there's nothing amiss.  Any ideas, can you think of anything else that would cause a wobble?  Brake calipers are fine and tyre pressures correct.

[cruisermark]

brake discs not sitting true to hub?

Buckled alloy?

maybe start with swap tyres front to back and see

[skyway]

Maybe try fitting your old set of wheels on Phil if you still got them

[The-Acre]

15 minutes ago, skyway said:

Maybe try fitting your old set of wheels on Phil if you still got them

Difficult one that as I've sold them! I think I'll try Mark's suggestion of swapping the wheels around as it's one I've considered.  It does feel as if there's play somewhere but everything is tight.

[Tinonline]

Argh this is annoying. Careful spending money from now on. Agree try swapping wheels but if you’d had them balanced they should be ok.

I bought and fitted good quality new discs but have a bit of shimmy under some braking conditions...oh well. OE parts...

Mine went away with lower ball joints and lower suspension arm bushes at around 80k miles. Also a track rod end drivers side was replaced.

The lower Control arms were very worn even at modest use and mileage...the years count more than or as much as the miles. Original equipment.

You’ll pass the MOT for example but it doesn’t mean you are at optimum...

Sounds like your car is in good order but worth checking aux belt, steering fluid but I think suspension bushes/parts most likely culprit.

 

[skyway]

I must admit I had my lower control arm bushes for ages (on my 1st LS)  that knocked but kept passing mot's  I also think that they were a cause of a wobble now I think back.

Just bought a set of bushes already Pressed in, just waiting for them to arrive and a sunny day to fit them.

I was looking at these's for the future   

https://www.shopfigs.com/v3/by-vehicle/cat-lexus-ls/cat-G3-LS-CAT/G2ISHP-FRLCA-SP3491K-IN-BRKT

[steve2006]

Similar problem here.

I’ve checked the wheel alignment and bearings, all the swivel joints, no crash damage and the pull down child seat is free to move but it still tends to pull to the left.

After complaining to the store manager the camber on all the aisles has been checked and found to be fine but it still seems worse approaching the frozen food section which may indicate temperature is a factor.

Really struggling to find a solution now, if I don’t soon it’s going in the river.

[The-Acre]

20 hours ago, Tinonline said:

Argh this is annoying. Careful spending money from now on. Agree try swapping wheels but if you’d had them balanced they should be ok.

I bought and fitted good quality new discs but have a bit of shimmy under some braking conditions...oh well. OE parts...

Mine went away with lower ball joints and lower suspension arm bushes at around 80k miles. Also a track rod end drivers side was replaced.

The lower Control arms were very worn even at modest use and mileage...the years count more than or as much as the miles. Original equipment.

You’ll pass the MOT for example but it doesn’t mean you are at optimum...

Sounds like your car is in good order but worth checking aux belt, steering fluid but I think suspension bushes/parts most likely culprit.

 

Now not withstanding my car being associated with a supermarket trolley!  I was driving locally today at very low speeds (20mph) and even at that speed there is a definite sensation that feels generally "loose" Hard to explain really but I don't have that tight, solid feel that my Volvo has for instance, or my wife's Astra. No play in the steering wheel but noticeable when driving, even over bumps to some extent.  So annoying as I've been in there with a pry bar and so have the two mechanics.  I'm thinking it has to be bushes, track rod ends or lower ball joints.  When I replaced the shock absorbers some months ago the UCA's felt solid.  Just odd that no one can find any play anywhere.

[John N]

It may sound silly but check your wheel nuts, had a similar feel to mine that turned out to be wheel nuts not as tight as they should have been!

I also experienced a similar wobble at around 70 mph that I couldn't trace, but I cured it by fitting new front wheel bearings. Paid less than £40 each for some from Germany on eBay.

John N

[The-Acre]

8 hours ago, John N said:

It may sound silly but check your wheel nuts, had a similar feel to mine that turned out to be wheel nuts not as tight as they should have been!

I also experienced a similar wobble at around 70 mph that I couldn't trace, but I cured it by fitting new front wheel bearings. Paid less than £40 each for some from Germany on Ebay.

John N

It doesn't sound silly but the wheels nuts are tight.  I think I need to get it up on a ramp and get more time spent on checking absolutely everything, something is clearly not as close fitting as it should be.  I'm more than happy to spend money to get it sorted but finding the problem is, well, a problem!

[PCM]

Weight fallen off, stone stuck in tyre, all fluids ok?

[steve2006]

OK I’ll put my serious hat back on now after my comedy moment.

Every since I bought my Celsior back in 2006 I have always thought the steering was a little vague, safe but vague. There is a section of road leading off the estate where I live and despite tyre replacements the car has always tram lined on it, the MOT tester who collects and redelivers the car has also remarked the same but nothing has ever been found amiss on the MOT.

I also have the wheels balanced of course and the tracking checked and adjusted if required when a tyre change is performed but I wondered if being designed for the Japanese market if there are any differences in geometry settings between it and the UK Lexus LS400 version to suit the road types in Japan.

Have you also checked the rear suspension Phil? Pretty sure I have heard of situations where a rear problem has a cause and effect on the front end. Another possibility may be the drive train like transmission, diff supports and prop shaft couplings.

 

[shanra]

Steering rack bushes ok?

[Razor61]

11 hours ago, John N said:

I also experienced a similar wobble at around 70 mph that I couldn't trace, but I cured it by fitting new front wheel bearings.

That is a good shout for the possible cause. Steering wobble at around 70 mph normally points to wheel balance out but thats been eliminated. So using the process of elimination - if wheels/tyres or ok - suspension is tight with no wear/play in tie rods/track rod ends - upper/lower ball joints - bushes etc are ok - steering rack itself is ok then there isn’t much left so it could very well be wheel bearing/s.

I have recently replaced the tie rod/track rod ends because the rubber boots were split and over rough ish road surfaces the steering felt annoyingly loose and steering ‘rattled’ too much. They seemed ok apart from the split rubber boots and so, before I started replacing the lower ball joints and uca’s ( which I have ready to be fitted when the time comes ), I figured it was worth replacing them first and see what happens. They cured the issue I had and I’m pretty sure the tie rods that were on the car were not original oem and knackered even though they seemed ok but I didn’t experience the wheel wobble you have. 

[The-Acre]

24 minutes ago, shanra said:

Steering rack bushes ok?

Yes they're fine.

[The-Acre]

21 minutes ago, Razor61 said:

That is a good shout for the possible cause. Steering wobble at around 70 mph normally points to wheel balance out but thats been eliminated. So using the process of elimination - if wheels/tyres or ok - suspension is tight with no wear/play in tie rods/track rod ends - upper/lower ball joints - bushes etc are ok - steering rack itself is ok then there isn’t much left so it could very well be wheel bearing/s.

I have recently replaced the tie rod/track rod ends because the rubber boots were split and over rough ish road surfaces the steering felt annoyingly loose and steering ‘rattled’ too much. They seemed ok apart from the split rubber boots and so, before I started replacing the lower ball joints and uca’s ( which I have ready to be fitted when the time comes ), I figured it was worth replacing them first and see what happens. They cured the issue I had and I’m pretty sure the tie rods that were on the car were not original oem and knackered even though they seemed ok but I didn’t experience the wheel wobble you have. 

Hmm, now a steering "rattle" is probably a good word to describe what I have in local driving situations over small imperfections on the road. 

[John N]

3 hours ago, The-Acre said:

It doesn't sound silly but the wheels nuts are tight.  I think I need to get it up on a ramp and get more time spent on checking absolutely everything, something is clearly not as close fitting as it should be.  I'm more than happy to spend money to get it sorted but finding the problem is, well, a problem!

Phil

The problem does sound exactly the same as I had with my present LS430 which I bought in early 2019. It only had 95k on the clock but it had been off the road for 5 years and one of the issues it had was a front wheel vibration at 70 or 80. I tried all the normal things, tyre balance, wheel tracking, suspension bushes etc. all ok. 

Naturally I did the normal wheel bearing checks, jack the wheel up, hold the wheel top and bottom, and left and right and pull hard to check for free play in a worn bearing. Nothing appeared wrong and the wheel turned freely, which left me scratching my head! But I did notice I could faintly hear the bearing turning, so I did the same test on my old LS430 (which had a major engine problem but no suspension issues) and I found the wheel on that car turned in absolute silence!

Because I couldn't find anything else wrong I decided to fit a new wheel bearing, although I was put off by the £354 + vat quoted by my local main dealer just to supply a new bearing! 

eBay though when I searched for,  - Fit For Lexus LS430 LS 430 2000-2006 Front New Hub Wheel Bearing With ABS Sensor - , I found Titan Autoparts in London selling German made bearing units with a 2 year guarantee for less than £40 (£31 now) so I fitted one of their bearings and the problem went away. 

After that solved the problem I chanced the other bearing as well, both bearings have now been on the car for 15k miles and work fine.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fit-For-Lexus-LS430-LS-430-2000-2006-Front-New-Hub-Wheel-Bearing-With-ABS-Sensor/282998928611

John N

 

[Razor61]

43 minutes ago, The-Acre said:

Hmm, now a steering "rattle" is probably a good word to describe what I have in local driving situations over small imperfections on the road. 

I would hazard a guess that the tie rod ends are not in the best of shape then, judging by my experience and maybe the cause of your issue. I doubt it but you never know.........

 Lower/upper ball joints have the weight of the car on them and normally show symptoms when you go over a pothole or speed bump or something similar and the weight of the car comes off then back on again, if there is play then you feel/hear a clunk. Tie rod/track rod ends don't have the cars weight on them so they are free to move and 'rattle' if worn, that's my thinking anyway and there is probably a proper 'technical' explanation/description somewhere. If you think they are worn/knackered then they probably need to be replaced anyway, it's a good place to start and see if it has any effect on your wobble problem. I did a post about replacing them (see below), I can/have done most things on my car but Lexus replaced mine a few weeks ago.

 

 

[Razor61]

Just had a look at the difference between the LS400 and the LS430 tie rods. The LS400 tie rods connect to the hub from the bottom with the ball joint underneath and the nut on the top. The LS430 is the opposite, the tie rods connect from the top with the ball joint at the top and the nut underneath. Maybe that would result in different symptoms if they are worn and could cause a wobble on an LS430 but not on an LS400.

.

[cruisermark]

When I had the 400s - the steering on them was very smooth and lighter than the 430 - part of the reason is probably the narrower tyres

Since having the 430 I have never got the steering perfect:

• It is slightly heavier to turn than the 400s
• here is more road feel especially uneven surfaces
• It has a tendency to jerk a little when going over bumps and uneven surfaces
• I tend to feel a slight wobble when going over uneven surfaces

I have so far replaced, tie rods, ball joints, steering rack bushes and gone through different brand of tyres - but never go it 100%

I think part of the reason is the profile of the tyres

The pre-facelift ones are smoother with 17 inch tyres

 

 

[lex - eleven]

Excuse me if someones already said this but I've looked at this without the benefit of my glasses. I understand that overtightening the wheel nuts can distort the discs....that's it, that's my penarth...good luck.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[The-Acre]

Thank you all for taking the time. Mark, although mine is a facelift it still has 17" wheels being a Celsior.  I think I'm going to get it on a ramp, have a really thorough check of the bearings and other joints, maybe it's been too rushed by those who have checked it.

[39buss]

23 hours ago, The-Acre said:

Hmm, now a steering "rattle" is probably a good word to describe what I have in local driving situations over small imperfections on the road. 

"Chattering"  I've heard it called. What about the top mount under the suspension turret?.

[The-Acre]

58 minutes ago, 39buss said:

"Chattering"  I've heard it called. What about the top mount under the suspension turret?.

Another good word to describe it!  The suspension is only 9 months old and being air it has a different top mount which is all sort of moulded into one. I have since checked that the top nuts are tight but I guess it wouldn't hurt to check again.

[Cotswold Pete]

Just read this and one other thought came to mind, as it sounds like similar problem I had on Omega over 15 years ago when I had new tyres fitted.

Tyre separation.  One of the new tyres had the tread wall coming away from the inner belt, and I had wobble at really low speeds  15mph to 25mph (like I was constantly hitting small patches of ice) at higher speeds like the wheels were totally unbalanced (but balancing showed things to be perfect).

It was AA man who suggested I just get a tyre depot to have a proper poke of the tyre, and hey presto new tyre found to be seperating.