Timing belt confusion

[garagestmarien]

Hi,

 

I am planning to change my timing belt, tensioners and water pump and will also be doing some work on the airco.

I have looked at various timing belt kits, Blue print, gates, aisin etc and all the ones that are listed for my model (1994 LS400 ufc10).

However, on some of these they show a 209 teeth belt and others a 211 teeth belt and they are all listed as correct.

Is this right, or do I need to get a specific tooth count?

Also, is there only one type of water pump for this model.

[Malc]

I don't know the specifics of your query but there are guys on here with that 1994 Ls400 car  knowledge I'm sure

However, both Gates and Aisin are very reputable ..............  I would personally avoid BluePrint for important stuff ......  personal experience

Malc

[Tinonline]

First time I've heard of variations for the earlier engines...always worth a double check with the supplier.

Agree with Malc on Gates & AISIN my jury is out on BluePrint: not cheap does fit but to me quality looks over-stated.

Some years ago I bought a Gates kit from RockAuto in a sale at a very reasonable/low price. That had water pump, belt pulleys, tensioner and all the required gaskets. Very pleased with quality and fit. If i'd fitted OE (with the mileage I do) next time i'd just fit the belt. As is...i'd probs just do the whole lot again. 

Simon

[Cotswold Pete]

From my experience would avoid BluePrint for anything (had them on LS and other cars owned), the cost saving not that great and as Tinonline says, quality overstated IMHO.

[steve2006]

209 teeth for UCF-10 engines so up to October 1994, 211 teeth for UCF-20..

Pretty sure Rockauto are selling an Aisin kit for under £200.00 landed at the moment.

[garagestmarien]

2 hours ago, steve2006 said:

209 teeth for UCF-10 engines so up to October 1994, 211 teeth for UCF-20..

Pretty sure Rockauto are selling an Aisin kit for under £200.00 landed at the moment.

Thank you Steve.

Mine is an Aug 1994 so the 209 kit is what I need.

Am I also right in thinking that there is only one water pump fitment.

I am trying to plan all my parts up front and hope they are correct. Rather than find out when my car is in pieces.

[steve2006]

Yep the water pump is the same across the range, the PS pump is also the same even on the later 430.

[garagestmarien]

okay,

I have ordered the gates kit (Bit more than the Aisin, But just personal choice - used Gates in the past on other motors and never had a problem)

Works out to about 166 pounds including pre paid customs. Not bad.

[garagestmarien]

Well, I have started work on the car and have come across something weird with the timing belt.

I don't know if I should do another post or just add it here, which for now I will do. Someone can tell me if that is okay or not.

I have got to the point of taking the harmonic balancer off, but thought I would line the timing up first. Now, I have seen a few photos on the 'net' that show the crank pulley at TDC and the timing marks lined up.

When I do mine, they are miles out, I would guess 40 deg.

I wonder how the car ran so well. I did for a few months after rebuilding the ecu caps have an odd starting problem. Sometimes the engine would lock, but second go on key and it spun okay. I thought it was some remaining damage from the ECU leaking caps, but now wonder if it's the timing belt timing.

Of course it will all be timed up properly when I get to that point.

I have added a photo of the timing marks. Maybe someone can tell me they are right, or that is is totally wrong.

 

[ColinBarber]

Turn the crank 360 degrees and check the camshaft marks again. A four stoke engine requires 2 crank revolutions for a complete cycle, you are probably at the mid-point.

[steve2006]

You beat me to it Colin, I was just thinking the same, the timing marks only align once every 2 engine revolutions.

Also ignore the marks on the belt they are only there to help initial installation of the belt, the new one should align both belt markings and timing marks wise.

This link may also help you.

http://www.lexls.com/tutorials/engine/timingbelt.html

[garagestmarien]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies. I have done as suggested, although I did not see it working as the crankshaft is basically 2 to 1 drive. So the cam shaft will only ever be 180 deg difference.

Following photos show:-

Photo 1 - 1 full turn (Camshaft marks 180 deg moved).

Photo 2. - 1 full turn, camshaft marks back to about 40 deg out. I count 7 teeth off.

Now I know the camshaft and crankshaft pulleys are keyed in place, so can be sure they haven't slipped. I cannot see any indication of the belt jumping any teeth and although it is well within the stickered mileage from when the last belt was done, I don't really trust it and so decided to do a major overhaul, just for my own peace of mind. 

This includes, timing belt, water pump, oil, oil filter, fuel filter, plugs, distributors, transmission filter etc etc.

But I still do not understand how the timing belt could be so far out and more to the point the car still run.

I don't think it matters how many more times I turn the engine, the marks will always be in 1 of 2 places.

I guess I will know better when I get the belt off and of course the new belt is marked up inlt cam/exh cam/ crank, so in theory should be correct.

 

 

Also, just as a matter of interest to steve2006. Your link to lexls. Photo 17 shows the marks correct, so you can see how far mine are out.

[Mihanicos]

Always and before you remove a timimg belt or chain, you need to verify the engine's timing marks and align the engine to them.

With the crankshaft at TDC,  both intake and exhaust valves are closed. If you have a distributor, the pointer should be pointing at No1 cylinder ignition cable. If they are not, rotate the crankshaft one more revolution and bring it to the TDC mark. All camshafts should align with their respective fixed marks on the cylinder head of each vee.

Make sure that the engine timing is correct and turn the engine two revolutions and verify it rotates freely. If you have an interference valve timing and your timing is off, the pistons may hit the valves with catastrophic consequences. 

Emanuals have repair manuals for lexus and they are about 25 euro each.

Chris.

[garagestmarien]

40 minutes ago, Mihanicos said:

Always and before you remove a timimg belt or chain, you need to verify the engine's timing marks and align the engine to them.

With the crankshaft at TDC,  both intake and exhaust valves are closed. If you have a distributor, the pointer should be pointing at No1 cylinder ignition cable. If they are not, rotate the crankshaft one more revolution and bring it to the TDC mark. All camshafts should align with their respective fixed marks on the cylinder head of each vee.

Make sure that the engine timing is correct and turn the engine two revolutions and verify it rotates freely. If you have an interference valve timing and your timing is off, the pistons may hit the valves with catastrophic consequences. 

Emanuals have repair manuals for lexus and they are about 25 euro each.

Chris.

Perhaps[s you are missing the point of this post. 

Aligning the timing marks showed the result of the cams being out.

I do not need manuals, I have all the info I require. I have been working on different vehicles for the last 50 years, so I am quite sure I know what I am doing.

My question was how far out I found the timing marks.

 

[John N]

I changed my timing belt on my LS430 a few years ago, that requires you to turn the crank aux drive belt pulley, which has the timing mark on it, to 50 deg past top dead center before removing the timing belt, at that point the three timing marks on the belt should all align with the the marks on the left and right camshaft pulleys, and with a mark on the bottom of the timing belt pulley at the front of the crank, which is behind the aux drive belt pulley. These are the sections from the repair manual I have.

John N

Timing Belt Refitting.pdf

Timing Belt Replcement.pdf

[ColinBarber]

ah ok I see your confusion. I believe there are TDC marks on the cam pulleys but they are small marks on the back edge not the white tooth on the front - cannot be seen on your photo.

If you rotate the engine 50 deg past TDC, to the end of the plate where the TDC marking are on, you will find the white marks line up as expected, and if you have an original timing belt there would be white lines across the belt matching the white tooth and marking on the engine.

The reason for this is to allow all the pistons to be down a little from Top, so if a camshaft rotates it cannot hit the piston and cause damage.

[John N]

Out of interest, how much have your parts cost?

When I bought a new timing belt and water pump last year from my local main dealer I paid £45 for the belt and £130 for the water pump, inc Vat.

John N

[nicnac]

24 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

ah ok I see your confusion. I believe there are TDC marks on the cam pulleys but they are small marks on the back edge not the white tooth on the front - cannot be seen on your photo.

If you rotate the engine 50 deg past TDC, to the end of the plate where the TDC marking are on, you will find the white marks line up as expected, and if you have an original timing belt there would be white lines across the belt matching the white tooth and marking on the engine.

The reason for this is to allow all the pistons to be down a little from Top, so if a camshaft rotates it cannot hit the piston and cause damage.

I concur. with this ..............disregard any non standard marks that have been put previosly and use the tiny marks on the pulleys and back plate

[John N]

The easy way to see it explained is to go on YouTube and search for 'LS400 timing belt replacement' the videos show the process quite clearly.

John N

[garagestmarien]

Thanks for the replies.

The timing belt kit and water pump I got from rock autos and including prepaid import tax and shipping was about 166 pounds. That's to the Netherlands and in comparison to the cost over here was a huge saving.

The timing marks on the cam pulleys in the photos are the correct ones. They are the stamped ones that have been tippexed (I guess- existing marks).

However, now I have the harmonic off I think I can also see another problem which solves the issue.

I do not think there is a standard harmonic balancer fitted. I cannot identify the one I have removed and on inspection, it looks like the timing marks are made on the other side of the crank key position.On all the pulleys I have been able to find in manuals and online, if you have the crank key at 12o/c, then the TDC mark is to the left. On mine it is to the right, so if I rotate it clockwise further to where the key should be, the cam timing is almost correct. So, on reassembly I will go by the crank (timing belt) pulley which seems to be in the right place.

I thought that maybe the pulley rubber was bad and the outer section had slide round a bit, but it is solid.

Here is a photo of the pulley.

If you make a straight line with the pointer I used for the crank key and take it to the outer edge, I think that is the correct area where the timing mark should be. I also note it has a solid center and all the models I can find have an open center.

The pulley fits fine and is in line for the drive belt, so my guess is, it is off some Toyota. But so far I cannot identify which one and a new pulley is too expensive for me.

[ColinBarber]

I guess it is possible for the outer part of the pulley to have slipped around and moved out of time with the inner key, especially if someone tried to previously undo the bolt by using a strap around the outside of the pulley and not the correct tool that will hold the centre to stop the engine rotating. As you say, check the timing using the markings on the timing belt pulley rather than the drive belt pulley/harmonic balancer to be confident that the timing is correct.

I think you have the correct pulley. It matches the diagram in the workshop manual for an engine of that age and seems to match this part which is the correct part code for an 1994 LS400.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13407-50040-GENUINE-OEM-DAMPER-SUB-ASSY-CRANKSHAFT-1340750040/174061597539?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D7c2868a3a9c0491ea426d2cb7c422787%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D9%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D332610540639%26itm%3D174061597539%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DToyota&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

On the workshop manual for a later revision of the engine the pulley looks more like the ones you have found pictures of online:

[garagestmarien]

2 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

I guess it is possible for the outer part of the pulley to have slipped around and moved out of time with the inner key, especially if someone tried to previously undo the bolt by using a strap around the outside of the pulley and not the correct tool that will hold the centre to stop the engine rotating. As you say, check the timing using the markings on the timing belt pulley rather than the drive belt pulley/harmonic balancer to be confident that the timing is correct.

I think you have the correct pulley. It matches the diagram in the workshop manual for an engine of that age and seems to match this part which is the correct part code for an 1994 LS400.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13407-50040-GENUINE-OEM-DAMPER-SUB-ASSY-CRANKSHAFT-1340750040/174061597539?_trkparms=aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20200520130048%26meid%3D7c2868a3a9c0491ea426d2cb7c422787%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D9%26mehot%3Dpf%26sd%3D332610540639%26itm%3D174061597539%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DDefaultOrganic%26brand%3DToyota&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

On the workshop manual for a later revision of the engine the pulley looks more like the ones you have found pictures of online:

Thank you very much.Yes, that is definitely the same as mine, which I see is the correct one.

It looks very much like it must have slipped, although it is tight, so I will re-use it and look at a replacement in the near future.