Hydrogen cars

[RgrWynne]

Malc, just announced this morning that Germany are investing 7 Billion in infrastructure for the above. That is the scale of investment needed, probably driven by the fact that Germany closed its nuclear power stations. It also gives them an interesting dichotomy, because the country is the main centre in Europe for the development and manufacture of Battery technology. Will be very interesting to see how this all pans out, methinks a bit like Beta and VHS technology years ago.  

[BigBoomer]

I'm interested in Fuel Cell and Battery cars and have driven both (Tesla Model S and a Honda Clarity), but nothing on the market really interests me yet, at least not in a price bracket I would consider. 
The Clarity I drove was a nice car. It felt like an Accord with better acceleration and LS levels of quiet.
The Tesla was impressive w.r.t. power but handling was heavy and build quality was not up to Honda/Lexus levels, but did have LS level quiet.

Hydrogen still has storage issues which effectively limits range, but does have the advantage over Battery of a 3 minute refill.
There are also issues w.r.t. safety, but those can be mitigated and really are no worse than petrol cars.

Battery cars are currently quite heavy (at least if they have a decent range) so the Fuel Cells have the advantage there as well.
However, you can recharge your Battery car at home where Fuel Cell still ties you to Fuel Stations.

Either way, neither of these are as "clean" as some people like to believe.
The cost of manufacture is currently very high for both Battery and Fuel Cell and the environmental damage is also high, especially when you consider that the energy used to charge the batteries or to produce the Hydrogen is very much not clean.
Are they better for the environment over their lifetime than petrol/diesel/hybrid cars, yes, but not as much as their marketing would like you to believe. At between 3-5 years is where the cost of manufacture is offset by the greener energy use compared to an equivalent Petrol/Diesel but that rises to 5-8 years compared to equivalent Hybrids.

If you are choosing between a new Battery/Fuel Cell car and a new Petrol/Diesel/Hybrid car, then given similar cost the former will be cleaner but more limited.
If you are in the used car market, then the greenest options for most of us will be Hybrids.
Soon we will start seeing high mileage Battery cars at more reasonable prices and they may be a good buy, but I guess that depends on the Battery and drive-train reliability.

If Germany has decided to go down the Hydrogen route, then good for them.
I look forward to seeing more choices of Fuel Cell cars, and maybe once they become available, the infrastructure will follow here in the UK.
Whichever route we go down, we will all need to invest in a shed-load of electricity generation capability in the next 10-15 years.
 

[Malc]

17 minutes ago, BigBoomer said:

I look forward to seeing more choices of Fuel Cell cars, and maybe once they become available, the infrastructure will follow here in the UK.

seems to me that simple refuelling at a normal " petrol " station is best for me as I have absolutely nowhere at home to recharge any electric car  ..  no car parking at home and no street lamp that the council or anybody might make into an electric charging point that me and my dozens of neighbours wouyld be able to use

Reality will set in for Govts and the EV brigade ...............  there are probably tens of millions of car owners in the UK like me where a simple fill-up at a " petrol " station will be the only way to go.......................well, that's unless we all Q up at the supermnarket car parks to recharge

Malc

[Cotswold Pete]

1 hour ago, BigBoomer said:

Whichever route we go down, we will all need to invest in a shed-load of electricity generation capability in the next 10-15 years.
 

That is always going to be an issue as all non-fossil fuels require energy to be created and are not as calorific as just pulling oil out of the ground and refining it, not so sure a world covered in wind farms and/or solar panels is one that would be pleasing, and in this country the local authority would not allow me to put panels all over a 250 year old house.

An interesting challenge, with no easy answers if we all want to travel (by bus/train/car) more and more, not forgetting planes.

[royoftherovers]

3 hours ago, RgrWynne said:

Malc, just announced this morning that Germany are investing 7 Billion in infrastructure for the above. That is the scale of investment needed, probably driven by the fact that Germany closed its nuclear power stations. It also gives them an interesting dichotomy, because the country is the main centre in Europe for the development and manufacture of battery technology. Will be very interesting to see how this all pans out, methinks a bit like Beta and VHS technology years ago.  

Germany IS, not Germany are Roger.

Have you been missing Lockdown lessons again?

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, BigBoomer said:

I'm interested in Fuel Cell and Battery cars and have driven both (Tesla Model S and a Honda Clarity), but nothing on the market really interests me yet, at least not in a price bracket I would consider. 
The Clarity I drove was a nice car. It felt like an Accord with better acceleration and LS levels of quiet.
The Tesla was impressive w.r.t. power but handling was heavy and build quality was not up to Honda/Lexus levels, but did have LS level quiet.

Hydrogen still has storage issues which effectively limits range, but does have the advantage over Battery of a 3 minute refill.
There are also issues w.r.t. safety, but those can be mitigated and really are no worse than petrol cars.

Battery cars are currently quite heavy (at least if they have a decent range) so the Fuel Cells have the advantage there as well.
However, you can recharge your Battery car at home where Fuel Cell still ties you to Fuel Stations.

Either way, neither of these are as "clean" as some people like to believe.
The cost of manufacture is currently very high for both Battery and Fuel Cell and the environmental damage is also high, especially when you consider that the energy used to charge the batteries or to produce the Hydrogen is very much not clean.
Are they better for the environment over their lifetime than petrol/diesel/hybrid cars, yes, but not as much as their marketing would like you to believe. At between 3-5 years is where the cost of manufacture is offset by the greener energy use compared to an equivalent Petrol/Diesel but that rises to 5-8 years compared to equivalent Hybrids.

If you are choosing between a new Battery/Fuel Cell car and a new Petrol/Diesel/Hybrid car, then given similar cost the former will be cleaner but more limited.
If you are in the used car market, then the greenest options for most of us will be Hybrids.
Soon we will start seeing high mileage Battery cars at more reasonable prices and they may be a good buy, but I guess that depends on the Battery and drive-train reliability.

If Germany has decided to go down the Hydrogen route, then good for them.
I look forward to seeing more choices of Fuel Cell cars, and maybe once they become available, the infrastructure will follow here in the UK.
Whichever route we go down, we will all need to invest in a shed-load of electricity generation capability in the next 10-15 years.
 

w.r.t. = do we all have to guess George ?

[Malc]

59 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

all over a 250 year old house.

come come, let the mind wander a little ..........  you could have a heat exchange pump in the ground spitting out oodles of calories  ..............  no, I jest, my house too is old, maybe 400 yrs, bit hard to tell, there's no one around who remembers and god bless the Land Registry who I guess hold all my original deeds somewhere as all I hold is a silly piece of paper that says it's a Land Certificate 

I digress a little, sorry

no roof solar panels for me either i guess  BUT as I live on the side of the tidal Queenborough creek perhaps I could install some sort of tidal power barrier and plant .....  now there's a thought .......  maybe a bit of a daft idea but I've had others too from time to time

Malc

[BigBoomer]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:31 PM, royoftherovers said:

w.r.t. = do we all have to guess George ?

Sorry Roy, it's a commonly used abbreviation that stands for With Respect To. 🙂