June 9th - 2021 Lexus IS

[DanD]

Launch is postponed until further notice

Sent from my Galaxy Note 10 Plus using Tapatalk

[Overland]

In Italy too, IS does not get any attention.

personally I am at my fourth, starting with IS200 sportback that I still miss. A real Lexus in every single detail.

I think it’s a great mistake thinking that in EU/UK the ES could overplace the IS: the ES is the same generation of NX or UX, I call them “fake Lexus” there’s nothing of Lexus heritage in them, if you drive them, you undertsand, or, at least, this was my impression after sevral trial.

Personally  I have to change my 2017 IS300H luxury with all the extra with a new one, in may 2021 at the end of the pay per drive contract, as I do with every Lexus since the beginning.

I was always lucky to find  anew model waiting for me every 3/4 year.

Sincerely I don’t think in this moment, that I would buy aN ES with all the problems was seen  in this car, or for sure I would not by a NX that here in Italy is the most fashion car as everybody want and everybody shown, I don’t like to be in the mass market.

After 16 year of Lexus, maybe it’s time go Tesla.

Sad to say.

 

 

 

[ganzoom]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:53 PM, Overland said:

After 16 year of Lexus, maybe it’s time go Tesla.

Just aware if you get a Model 3 you woudlnt get reliability or exclusivilty ;).

 

 

[LexIS200Sport]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:53 PM, Overland said:

personally I am at my fourth, starting with IS200 sportback that I still miss. A real Lexus in every single detail.

Nailed it.

  

On 6/7/2020 at 6:53 PM, Overland said:

I think it’s a great mistake thinking that in EU/UK the ES could overplace the IS

And again!

[Overland]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Just aware if you get a Model 3 you woudlnt get reliability or exclusivilty ;).

 

 

First of all I would like to point out that at the moment I can testify my opinion from Italy, I don't know the other markets. I'm a simple enthusiast, I don't have engineering skills.
I just buy a car and use it for my needs.

If I have to be really honest, Lexus has almost totally lost its exclusivity for at least a few years, when it has privileged an average consumer target instead of maintaining its shares in the medium-high segment and this has happened in Italy for two specific reasons:

1. closure of the historic Lexus showrooms and integration of sales and assistance in commercial Toyota facilities where the level of customer care and technical assistance is very poor, with a downward orientation, as well as sales.

2. these sales offices are pushed to sell the Lexus basic products, that is the cheapest of the range, they strongly push UX and NX basic models, without optional features or advanced features, aware that the consumer who buys a Lexus today, in 2020, in Italy, will not he knows nothing about the brand, has no experience with "the old Lexus range, performance, customer service, philosophy" so he also accepts cars like UX, very far from the Lexus philosophy.

Not bad car, but not Lexus.

3. the old mechanics of the historic Lexus service, with whom I have now friendships after 15 years of possession of Lexus cars and 4 IS cars purchased over time and 2 CTs for my wife, told me to keep away from the ES and the NX , because to them saying "they are not cars with the Lexus construction philosophy" it seems to me that it is enough to read the comments on the ES to be able, at least a little, to agree.

In any case, at least in my region (North East of Italy), I think the dealer has only sold a few ES, so it certainly isn't a car that hit the market like GS did.
I point out that I was really in love with the ES, but after driving it for a few weeks I realized that I wasn't driving a real Lexus: maybe it was a "masked" Toyota Camry.
A thousand noises, crunches, a disarming slowness, a build quality that my IS300 H surpasses.

The UX is given to me as a service car, but it looks like a toy and in my opinion:

• consumes too much if I make comparisons with my IS300H
• she is confused, too many buttons, too many niches, I feel uncomfortable
• certainly has an interesting design, but tired immediately.
(If the designers do not find other ideas, sooner or later they will be outclassed by other car manufacturers: the lights of the IS2021 are already the same as those of the SEAT CUPRA, take a look too.)
• I see it as a car without a soul, it doesn't convey the feeling I felt when I got into my first Lexus (I came from the German cars).

It is obvious that it is only my impressions, I am not a technician, I am not a mechanic, as in all things there will be enthusiasts and those who will say instead that the IS30H sucks, it is normal so, because everyone of us tends to protect his taste, his choice, a car or anything else: a watch, a clothing brand, etc.
Therefore I must say that in Italy, the word "exclusivity" no longer makes sense.

You have exclusivity if the car manufacturer remains true to its DNA, if it offers you advanced technologies and research, if it offers you an advanced and luxurious service and customer care.

But if having a Lexus becomes having a mini-suv that costs a little more than another brand and makes you conform to fashion, there is no longer any exclusivity.
The same applies if you have an IS or an RX (which are truly exclusive) and you have to take it to a Toyota workshop where you are treated poorly.
I am fortunate to have and still have a dealer about 100 km away from a distance that is part of the historical network, he is trying to resist with all its strength the paradigm shift imposed by Lexus.

I turn to my comment on Tesla.

I have no idea of the reliability, which you say is very low and I will certainly inquire, as you understand I don't think it is the exclusivity that today guides me in the purchase (although in Italy Tesla offers a service that we can compare to that of Lexus of the origins ) and certainly we do not see as many Tesla as UX / NX which are now the practice.

Tesla is very rare here, although in my mountain village, with the first largest inhabited center (Treviso) at 30 km .. I have a TESLA Supercharge charger 600 meters from my house so Tesla looks very ahead.

My IS300H will stay with me until May 2021 or at the end of the payment plan and I will have all the time to study and try various Tesla, if I consider doing an important step like this I will think about it a lot.

Certainly, if Lexus' philosophy continues to focus on cars with outdated engines (technologically speaking the new IS300H 2021 will have the 2014 engine) and on the declaration of enhancing a medium segment (if we exclude the very rare ones that can buy an LC) sooner or later all customers will have to ask the same questions I am asking to me.

Apologize for my bad English.

[mpls]

On 6/3/2020 at 8:21 PM, doog442 said:

 

The new BMW 4 series pics just been released . 

 

The side profile has the look of the 2021 Acura TLX (in USA) which to me looks like a HondaAcura that should be sold in the UK. It's bee a long time since Honda made good looing cars since the Accord or current NSX

[mpls]

Overland...

 

A very interesting post, i think for Lexus EU in cutting costs ( as evident from your info provided) shows the lack of vision and staying power for lexus in the long term. On one hand low sales is the reason they are cutting modes such as the GS/IS, but on the otherhand they do nothing about it.  What is Lexus reknowned for excellent service, reliable cars, unique and divisive and sharp design (whch I like). In cutting corners as described by you, it is chopping off one of its strengths. To be honest the way lexus is going here in UK.. I see it happening too. My local Lexus franchise used to be owned by Sytner, now has been sold to Inchcape ( as of 2018). I think under Sytner servcie was much better.

,To stay relevant and in peoples minds they need to refresh, push the boundries, otherwise Lexus will remain low volume only known by existing owners and unable to attract future younger buyers who in turn could become futyre entusuasts. The way Lexus is heading ( will be just Toyota's tarted up). For a company like Toyota, the most profitable csr company in the world to neglect Lexus in the EU/UK will be a big mistake.Surely they have the resources to push the boundries..Lexus should be cutting edge and drivig the company forward with tech and innovation, but it seems it is actually dictated by Toyota and its products.. If I were  driving a Toyota now,and i wanted to move to something more luxurious it would not be  a Lexus, essentially the same csr with slower tech nzd same powertrainetc.. I'd move to another brand. Lexus truely needs to wake up in the EU/UK and oush HLQ to do something about it..

Lexus marketing in the UK has really let down Lexus for the past 15 years.. first for the GS, then for the IS... e..g the clueless IS TV adverts... ( strong poise, control.. ballet dancer and Athlete), what was that ? rubbish ? Where was the refinement  push ? where was the comparisons to diesels which was at a criticl juncture at the time..  Total lost opportunties for increaed sales through better marketing.. Lost sales and therefore low sales  that became the reason for dropping GS/IS etc...  I'm', wondering how :exus EU/UK can give account to their actions/performance back to Lexus/Tpyota  HQ in Japan...

[dutchie01]

To me it all shows that todays Lexus is not focussed on the European market. They design and sell the vast majority of cars in the states and asia. The european market is moving to EV with lightspeed at the moment and is leading in that aspect. Germany yesterday announced that all petrolstations in the country must offer EV charging as well. Lexus is not a marketleader nor a trendsetter, they seem to simply follow demand and have turned into a manufacturer of SUV/Crossovers. all the rest does not seem relevant anymore.

UX/NX/RX and more to come soon, that is where the brand is heading. In europe sales have fallen to such an extend that independent dealerships are now moving into toyota dealers and with regard to EV development they have been sleeping with their eyes open ( or made the strategic decision to not participate in that market). Lexus to me seems to have a much weaker position than 10 years ago and like Overland say what is there to choose if you are in the market for a new car? the current range is small and long in the teeth. I too am eyeing Tesla which offers a very competitive package with government support of course. The 3 series is the best selling car in the netherlands at the moment. Lexus sales are so small they disappeared off the card alltogether.   

 

[mpls]

For those who haven't seen, the RAV 4 Prime ( not sure if it will be in the UK) looks like a fine machine, this is the kimd of powertrain that should  have be on their saloons..T The ony saving grace for Lexus if at all possible is if Toyota woild be the first to develop a Solid state Battery and that lexus would be the fiest to use them, and if they ever do they should be re-releasing the GS/IS as EVs, now that would be cool. Just saw video where Clarkson drove a Tesla X, where he commented it was a fast heavy car ( though batteries were at the bottoms for low centre of gravity). There is a limit to Lith-ION and maybe Toyota don;t want to invest heavily in current tech batteries, though I think they are losing out in not even dabbling in EVS for lexus with Lith-Ion batteries. Surely the most profitable car company in the world has all the resources at its disposal to keep Lexus relevant and in peoples minds! Otherwise prepare to be run of the mill company that fades away... might as well throw in the towel now and shut down Lexus division, concentratrng on Toyota  only, if making money is the only objective...

[rayaans]

27 minutes ago, mpls said:

For those who haven't seen, the RAV 4 Prime ( not sure if it will be in the UK) looks like a fine machine, this is the kimd of powertrain that should  have be on their saloons..T The ony saving grace for Lexus if at all possible is if Toyota woild be the first to develop a Solid state battery and that lexus would be the fiest to use them, and if they ever do they should be re-releasing the GS/IS as EVs, now that would be cool. Just saw video where Clarkson drove a Tesla X, where he commented it was a fast heavy car ( though batteries were at the bottoms for low centre of gravity). There is a limit to Lith-ION and maybe Toyota don;t want to invest heavily in current tech batteries, though I think they are losing out in not even dabbling in EVS for lexus with Lith-Ion batteries. Surely the most profitable car company in the world has all the resources at its disposal to keep Lexus relevant and in peoples minds! Otherwise prepare to be run of the mill company that fades away... might as well throw in the towel now and shut down Lexus division, concentratrng on Toyota  only, if making money is the only objective...

Lexus sales in Europe are going fine to be honest. 

The NX450h+ is a plug in and will use the RAV4 prime drivetrain. It's coming next year

[Charlie Alder]

I have been a Lexus owner for 16 years. Unfortunately in todays world money is everything. In a world where car ownership and car technology is changing rapidly, the philosophy that launched Lexus has gone, stifled by Toyota I suspect. I see it in their cars and service provided by their dealerships. What has sunk Lexus I think is too much Toyota in their cars. My first Lexus was an IS200 which was a true Lexus. I replaced that with a CT which while being a good car is really an Auris in disguise. Lexus  are trying to convince people that they're cars appear to be different, charge much higher prices and hope nobody notices. Apart from  the US Lexus  is now a liability for Toyota so much so that in the next 5 years or so Lexus in Europe will not exist. Shame really because for me Lexus,  back in 2003, were something special.

 

[Mincey]

2 minutes ago, Charlie Alder said:

My first Lexus was an IS200 which was a true Lexus. 

 

The IS200 was a rebadged Toyota Altezza.

[mpls]

1 hour ago, rayaans said:

Lexus sales in Europe are going fine to be honest. 

The NX450h+ is a plug in and will use the RAV4 prime drivetrain. It's coming next year

Fine for now, but they are treading on thin ice. Norway bans the use of the term Self Charging.. Slow product development for Lexus ( behind Toyota) will not sustain Lexus for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts.

 

[rayaans]

27 minutes ago, mpls said:

Fine for now, but they are treading on thin ice. Norway bans the use of the term Self Charging.. Slow product development for Lexus ( behind Toyota) will not sustain Lexus for all the reasons mentioned in previous posts.

 

I don't think they care to be honest. They know Germans are mass market. And Toyota as a brand is like that 

Lexus was all about exclusivity and for the American market. Actually it's all in the name 

[LexIS200Sport]

1 hour ago, Mincey said:

The IS200 was a rebadged Toyota Altezza.

Just like the LS400 is a rebadged Celsior? Not sure about that...  😉

 

[jevestobs]

The problem at the moment is the new car market is in a period of major contraction, already underway before Covid hit and may never return to previous levels. The paradigm of the car as the predominant form of transport is going to be challenged by many factors, not least the fact that post-Covid many more will work from home and travel less frequently. Many countries will increasingly prioritise good quality public transportation solutions. 

All of this, coupled with rising costs due to modern cars needing to meet eleventy-million regulations, means that manufacturers are up **** creak without a paddle.

Strategically, Lexus have always prioritised profit over volume. I suspect the UK division is throttling back and waiting to see what happens at the end of this market reset before committing themselves to too many product launches.

For us, it's a shame because we love the brand. However - modern cars are generally rather boring and offer less of the qualities we always loved in our older models. So given Lexus vehicles are so reliable and long lived, why don't we just stick with what we have?

I have a GS300h (used to have the IS) and a previous gen RX450h and to be honest, none of the new stuff from any brand offers any truly valuable improvements. I'd rather stick with these with less cost and see what happens in the world over the next five years than buy an adolescent product that is in the middle of changes and therefore doesn't know what it wants to be. Like the new ES.

[Overland]

I like this post because it is offering interesting discussion points.

I see that Lexus' strategy in Italy is also present in other European countries and the United Kingdom, this makes me understand that it is no coincidence then: they decided to follow the path "Toyota for all, Little service for all".

It makes me think a lot about some aspects.

1. we all agree that the strategy is to save money, there is no other explanation: however, if a company decides to commit suicide slowly in terms of image, it means that it needs savings which outweighs the need to maintain a high level of the image, I don't think Toyota need money;

Anyway: You save but you pay a price that can cost you your image on the customers.

2. by choosing the strategy of expanding the mass of customers, offering slightly lower products on those quality and design factors that made the difference compared to other car manufacturers, you can try to increase sales a bit on the concept of "quantity, instead of quality" but here too, it is only a temporary benefit, because it increases new mid-range customers (who are mostly curious, unstable and are not loyal to the house and, generally, do not have much spending capacity in the medium-long term) but lose those historic loyal customers who see interest in the brand waning, given the lack of innovation and proposal.

However this strategy is the opposite of the Japanese mentality, I work with the Japanese in my sector that is textiles, and I assure you that their strategic thinking is very different from this, almost in this filed of fabric, fashion, and design.

Therefore it means that all this sense of change and downward strategy is European / UK, this makes us think.

In my small company in times of crisis like this, I have chosen the path of giving a better service, offering new products, engaging the client in the best way, showing that I am always active, proactive, and strong in my philosophy, this reduce my margin and the profit on the short term, but in the medium long therm I keep the customer with me, and I experience that during lockdown when everybody was afraid and terrorized, keeping a proactive e positive position help me lot.

Then, a few words on aspects such as innovation and design.

Yes, I agree that the IS200 in Japan was marketed under the name ALTEZZA and even today, the IS in Japan has another name, as also the Toyota version LS is called in another way.

But the Toyota versions, honestly, have nothing to do with the cars when offered under the Lexus brand.

Ultimately, I think that as you said above, what is missing is a real evolution on the engines.

Although I am very happy with the Hybrid Synergy Drive engine (and very opposed to the "Self Charging" pay-offs or as seen now in the "Lexus Electrified" commercials in Italy because they only confuse people) I must say that they are starting to appear many other proposals, all the brands are hyper-active on this front, little is missing that they can become at Lexus level.

It seems to me that Lexus is dozing, arguing too much inside, that there are many fears, little vision, and little courage.

Yes, there is a crisis, yes we are in a difficult moment, but nobody can say that there is not yet that customer in the IS segment who has the interest and potential to spend a certain budget, integrating even more value, such as a leather seat, a Mark Levinson system.

If there wasn't such a market, there would be no Tesla growth, just to give an example, in Europe.

So I think that an IS, with a more modern Battery pack and a more updated Hybrid Synergy Drive and with a redefinition of its aesthetic aspect, with the snap of the range towards the higher, perhaps adding the option for the head-up displays, would have had a clientele that would surely have stayed in Lexus for sure.

Rolling the dice on the table in some marketing meeting hoping that all IS customers move towards ES or NX is too big a risk and in my case, this will not happen for any reason:

One aesthetic: I don't like is suvs, half-suvs, mini-suvs, pseudo-suvs,

The other reliability: at the moment I do not trust the quality of ES, I am used too well with my experience within the IS range that has been in 15 years and in 4 different cars driven, from its origins to today, perfect, without a more small flaw. And finally, the ES is more expensive.

We have the RC, yes and I like too...  an IS with 2 doors, more sportive: but if you don't like the F SPORT package and prefer the more elegant e classic style (as I prefer) you miss lot of features.

Another incredible decision by Lexus marketer, that I will never understand.

[dutchie01]

Honestly it does not matter what we think. We are enthusiasts and therefore visit this forum. However we are a minority. Most owners buy a new car( mostly company cars as i dont know anyone buying a brandnew motor privately) and just drive long for 3 to 5 years and get another one.

Lexus seems to go where the business is and i cannot blame them. The 4 door saloon segment is almost dead, nobody wants one everybody wants a suv/crossover. so i guess that is what you have to offer. Always offer what the market wants right? so UX/NX/RX/LF1 and most likely another one in the A segment. Saloons? not anymore, IS dead, GS dead, LS a big flop not selling so the only option is the ES that seems to do reasonably well. So, any investment in the saloonmarket will likely not be a good businesscase so better not do it.

i think one of the issues of Lexus is the conservatism of the brand. New models should come faster than now. The infotainment now looks 3 generations old and still they keep soldiering on, what is lexus standing for nowadays?? champions in refinement, best in NVH? sporty but sophisticated? trendsetting in new powertrains? aesthetic architecture?. Anybody??

It seems Lexus has become the Seat or Skoda of VW, maybe the Audi because of interior design and fit and finish. My IS 250 of 10 years ago felt over engineered, rock solid with a whispering V6, no noise no vibrations. The IS300H was a good car in its own right but it felt more toyota than lexus. I feel they lost it and dont really care as long as they can sell SUVś in the states.

The competition has overtaken Lexus. Without talking about EVś ( tesla/audi/mercedes/bmw/vw) one only has to look to the Coreans. Just look at Genesis........

   

[Shada]

I've had a few new rav4 in at work and they are using a right bit of BMW running gear, so maby the new is may be an under cover 3 series. 

If that's the way they are going it might be best if they don't offer it in Europe! 

[mpls]

I think someone has revealed that the new IS is built on a new a Toyota platform  TNGA: TNGA-N

taken from wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexus_IS#Fourth_generation_(2020)

Interesting to see a 2.4 Litre engione from Subaru and a 3 litre BMW engone from BMW, probably same one as in the Supra.

Anyway EU/UK will see none of it...

 

Engine	2.0 L 8AR-FTS turbocharged I4 2.4 L Subaru FA24F / 4U-GTE turbocharged H4 3.0 L BMW B58B30 turbocharged I6 2.5 L A25A-FXS I4 (hybrid)
Transmission	8-speed AA81E automatic

 

[mpls]

Overland,

 

I like your points, interestng thoughts..

Though I'd like to make a correction although the First Gen IS was marketed in Japan as a Toyota Altezza, from 2nd gen onward it has been Lexus IS. I think Lexus SUVs look nice, i wouldn't buy one though  as I like the look of saloons better..

[mpls]

dutchie01

 

I bought my current IS300H on a personal lease.   Just before the end of lease beginning of last year I got a call from my dealer as tried tp sell me a new IS. I told them bluntly why would I get a new IS which essentially is same as my with slights changes to the rear light, a little mofification om the front. With he same powertrain. paying more money for more of the same ? no way.. Then they moved on and said how about the ES. They had no clue, though in the end after my explanation they understood.  Anyway I chose to pay the final lump sum  payment to keep the car which I still have.. yes it is reliable. still looks good etc.

 

Lexus' mistake is the slow development or no development of its hybrid powertrain. Their chance of totally trumping diesel BMW/Merc/Audi was missed about 7-8 years ago at least in the 2.0d/3.0d diesel arena with differing tunes of Hybrid ( which they coud have done) instead of totally concentrating on fuel economy only. Lexus EU/UK have been too conservative in mareting and sales target. On one hand they say they are a low volume supplier, ok thats fine..  but then they cut product lines becaude of low sales!   and so that boils down to lack of development and pretty poor marketing ( i keep repeating myself). What do the Germans do, they refresh and continually improve, more so than Lexus ( a japanese company). Pretty strange for a Japanese company.. I too worked in japan betwen 2000-2007 and I find it strange that Lexus EU/UK does not push back ( or feedback) to Lexus HQ iike Lexus USA does.. Lexus does not have the heritage of BMW/Merc   the only way they can get more sales is by doing things better, faster, riskier, through continuous development, new tech and features, next gen power train.. Toyota are too conservative, they can afford to let Lexus push boundries, maybe even lose some money in order to cement the brand into new generation of future luxury car buyers., a forward thinking company.. but sadly all I see at the present is an SUV company with an aspiring LC coupe, highend saloon in the LS and a one size fits all ES saloon.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mpls]

1 hour ago, Shada said:

I've had a few new rav4 in at work and they are using a right bit of BMW running gear, so maby the new is may be an under cover 3 series. 

If that's the way they are going it might be best if they don't offer it in Europe! 

 

Intesresting about the new RAV 4, i just read about some issues with new the  RAV 4, not sure if issue is related to the  BMW bits! 🙂

as mentioned above the new IS apprently is built on one of  Toyota's new platform. one of the new engine options will be from BMW

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, Shada said:

I've had a few new rav4 in at work and they are using a right bit of BMW running gear, so maby the new is may be an under cover 3 series. 

If that's the way they are going it might be best if they don't offer it in Europe! 

That's just not true 

[wharfhouse]

From what I read on the web site info just before Lexus decided to delay the announcement they said this was more of a facelift on the existing IS platform with some tweaks like track width, suspension and cosmetic updates and not a new car on the new platform. Engine options weren't very clear and I wonder if Lexus have decided to only offer the car with non-hybrid options (primarily for the US market, including the aspirated V8) and hence why EU/UK are not interested? AFAIK Lexus has said that there will be a replacement for the CT due for 2021 - if that becomes bigger than the existing CT maybe they see this filling the IS space for a smaller (than ES) non-SUV in Europe. Personally, I was thinking of whether to change my IS 300h (2014 model) and was waiting on the new IS (IV) as I don't just want to switch to the current model and don't want to go ES - for now I think I will just keep running mine - now on 88,000 miles but I maintain it with a Lexus service plan and have Lexus extended warranty so no real concerns until it gets quite a lot older. The UX may be an option for me within the next few years as my requirements start to change. Had one the UX a day when my IS was last serviced and I enjoyed driving it though a bit limited on interior space - had the NX during my service before that one for a day and didn't really like that - felt too cumbersome for my needs.