When is a full service not a full service?

[m4rkw]

We just bought a lovely 2008 Rav4 for my wife. Great example, lovely condition, full service history. One of the main selling points was that it had a full service at the main stealer back in October. Being the kind of person who tends to over-service cars I ordered replacement air and cabin filters for it from Toyota via eBay.

Today it turned up, I popped the airbox open and discovered.. a Mann filter covered in dirt and leaves. Very curious! I went back to check the invoice from Toyota and it seems they changed everything except the engine air filter. The cabin filter, oil, diff oil, alignment check etc etc were all done, but there's no mention of the engine air filter. The invoice says at the top "100,000 mile / 10 year full service".

How can a full service not include a new air filter? Maybe they looked at it and decided it was good at the time and didn't need changing? I find it hard to imagine a stealership not taking the opportunity to sell someone a new filter though. Very odd.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, m4rkw said:

We just bought a lovely 2008 Rav4 for my wife. Great example, lovely condition, full service history. One of the main selling points was that it had a full service at the main stealer back in October. Being the kind of person who tends to over-service cars I ordered replacement air and cabin filters for it from Toyota via ebay.

Today it turned up, I popped the airbox open and discovered.. a Mann filter covered in dirt and leaves. Very curious! I went back to check the invoice from Toyota and it seems they changed everything except the engine air filter. The cabin filter, oil, diff oil, alignment check etc etc were all done, but there's no mention of the engine air filter. The invoice says at the top "100,000 mile / 10 year full service".

How can a full service not include a new air filter? Maybe they looked at it and decided it was good at the time and didn't need changing? I find it hard to imagine a stealership not taking the opportunity to sell someone a new filter though. Very odd.

Just because something is charged for Mark does not necessarily mean it has been done.

I take your point though. A 10 year full service must include a new air filter.

All Garages whether Indie or  Stealership must have their work checked by the owner, wherever possible.

[RgrWynne]

I agree that is not very good at all. I guess unless the actual service sheet specifies an air filter, the technician servicing the vehicle would not deviate ? At least you have the confidence to know they did not charge for something they did not do. Sadly not always the case.

A friend of mine was Service Director of a main BMW agent 20, or so years ago. He is a stickler and made very clear to all employees to never tick something they had not done. BMW sent an undercover car in and then checked all the work had been completed as per the tick sheet. Sure enough they found work ticked and not completed, so my friend in the presence of the BMW representative called it the  technician and confirmed he understood the instructions , which he did. He admitted he had ticked and not completed work. My friend sacked him there and then, much to the horror of the BMW rep. What did BMW then do ?.... found the technician a job at another BMW garage.

Probably in this day and age a warning would need to be issued first, but it still does your brand an awful lot of harm, and despite what people may say, or think, Lexus/Toyota and I think Honda (apologies to those I have missed) have a pretty dam good reputation generally. That is my opinion, Cheers, Roger

[Mihanicos]

When a very simple and straight forward job has not been done, I would wonder about the more involved and costly jobs.

Chris.

[scudney]

I agree with you on the reputation bit Roger,with regards to full service I see this as rather subjective as what it includes or does not include varies widely and same with what we expect to be done too,although I would expect it to include an oil filter

[RgrWynne]

Hi John it was an air filter , Cheers , Roger

 

[scudney]

As well as an air filter too lol,although some garages will only change the air filter if they its extremely dirty while others will change them regardless of condition 

[m4rkw]

Well everything else was done, coolant, brake fluid, oil/oil filter, pollen filter, even the Battery in the transmitter was replaced. I guess the filter must have just looked too clean to bother replacing.

[true blue]

Hi ,I agree that it is very annoying to find that you have been deceived by a dealer regarding work carried out, this happens even at main dealers who make a large enough mark up as it is .I have come across it on many occasions with different makes over the years which is why as a retired engineer I prefer to carry out all my own servicing on my cars and my families cars The only thing I would say about my experience with Lexus cars bought second hand, I have bought 2 over the years both with a mileage of less than 40 000 ,4 years old and with 4 full Lexus dealer stamps ,in both cases when I challenged the dealers regarding the state of the air cleaner which was filthy and with plenty of rubbish in the box I was told the air cleaner is a change at 40 000 mile item as specified by Lexus in their service schedule and is blown out and Not changed until this mileage is reached.May be this mentality is used also by Toyota ? 

[ColinBarber]

You would need to check the service schedule for the vehicle. Modern Toyota/Lexus vehicles have the air filter changed every 40k miles so it wouldn't normally be done at a 100k service (40k, 80k, 120k etc.) - it should be inspected every 20k and if very dirty and needing of replacement then there would be an additional charge.

[doog442]

7 hours ago, RgrWynne said:

Probably in this day and age a warning would need to be issued first, but it still does your brand an awful lot of harm, and despite what people may say, or think, Lexus/Toyota and I think Honda (apologies to those I have missed) have a pretty dam good reputation generally. That is my opinion, Cheers, Roger

I hate to disagree but Lexus are the only company I know of who will put an approved service history (called a Lexus approved service history) on a car that doesn't actually have a full service history. Perhaps others do but you really don't expect it from this marque.  Missed services, no problem just say its Lexus approved after they gave it the once over in the workshop. 

Ignore the marble and acres of glass and drill right down into the service records. I've been stung once on an IS200 and nearly got done over by Lexus Belfast on an RCF last year.  

[m4rkw]

Pretty sure the word "approved" in the context of any car sale just means they approve of you handing over your money. Means very little else. Selling used vehicles is unfortunately a business where it probably pays quite well to not be entirely honest all the time.

[doog442]

47 minutes ago, m4rkw said:

Pretty sure the word "approved" in the context of any car sale just means they approve of you handing over your money. Means very little else. Selling used vehicles is unfortunately a business where it probably pays quite well to not be entirely honest all the time.

Most people would consider an approved service history at a Lexus dealership as something approaching a full service history..in some way, shape or form.We are talking Lexus main dealers here not some back street garage.  

I've never seen this from BMW or Merc dealers.  

 

[m4rkw]

2 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Most people would consider an approved service history at a Lexus dealership as something approaching a full service history..in some way, shape or form.We are talking Lexus main dealers here not some back street garage.  

I've never seen this from BMW or Merc dealers.

You're right it's terrible for the brand. I'd wager though that it's one or two bad actors running franchises and that if their head office knew about it they wouldn't be happy.

[doog442]

15 minutes ago, m4rkw said:

You're right it's terrible for the brand. I'd wager though that it's one or two bad actors running franchises and that if their head office knew about it they wouldn't be happy.

Its across the board, always has been.

Take a look at this....I have it in writing that a Lexus approved history isn't a full history. All I'm saying is just be careful. To get a missing service history 'approved' they simply examine it, service it and stick it on the forecourt.  

Vehicles with an incomplete or non Lexus Centre service history can only qualify as an Approved Pre-Owned Lexus once the retailing Lexus Centre completes the most recent major service.

 

 

https://www.lexus.co.uk/centres/hedge-end/used-cars

 

Full Service History

All Lexus Approved Pre-Owned vehicles have a service history that has been approved by the Lexus retailer. Our vehicles are carefully sourced from trusted partners, or from our own network. This ensures the vehicle’s long-term reliability and performance.

 

 

 

[olliesgrandad]

Servicing is a strange beast. We have a 65 plate Fiat 500.we bought it 2 years old with 3000 miles freshly serviced. For first 2 years we had it the supplying garage did a basic service as it covered less than 5000 miles a year.. On Friday at 17000 miles we decided it needed a big service as at 4 years old it required a cambelt. 

The garage we use is a small Fiat dealer which is family run.  They clearly previously marked the service book as annual services.

They quoted for a water pump (which I was Happy to pay for). When I collected the car they said the pump was perfect so hadn't changed it. 

Lexus Approved cars need to be checked thoroughly for service history and I must admit any future purchases will involve buying a car that has a full history available from the supplying dealer. 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, olliesgrandad said:

Servicing is a strange beast. We have a 65 plate Fiat 500.we bought it 2 years old with 3000 miles freshly serviced. For first 2 years we had it the supplying garage did a basic service as it covered less than 5000 miles a year.. On Friday at 17000 miles we decided it needed a big service as at 4 years old it required a cambelt. 

The garage we use is a small Fiat dealer which is family run.  They clearly previously marked the service book as annual services.

They quoted for a water pump (which I was Happy to pay for). When I collected the car they said the pump was perfect so hadn't changed it. 

Lexus Approved cars need to be checked thoroughly for service history and I must admit any future purchases will involve buying a car that has a full history available from the supplying dealer. 

Might not need a WATER PUMP Les, but what about belt,pulley,tensioner ?

[Malc]

is changing a waterpump something like " preventative maintenance "  ?

if it's left another year / service it mighht just go from being ok  to being dead in between times ......  and amazingly inconvenient too

Malc

I know my waterpump changes at 100k miles / 10 years shows me that the waterpump being changed is absolutely fine BUT I doubt it would survive asnother 100k miles / 10 years and in the interim cause catsatrophic issues

[olliesgrandad]

Servicing is a strange beast. We have a 65 plate Fiat 500.we bought it 2 years old with 3000 miles freshly serviced. For first 2 years we had it the supplying garage did a basic service as it covered less than 5000 miles a year.. On Friday at 17000 miles we decided it needed a big service as at 4 years old it required a cambelt. 

The garage we use is a small Fiat dealer which is family run.  They clearly previously marked the service book as annual services.

They quoted for a water pump (which I was Happy to pay for). When I collected the car they said the pump was perfect so hadn't changed it. 

Lexus Approved cars need to be checked thoroughly for service history and I must admit any future purchases will involve buying a car that has a full history available from the supplying dealer. 

[olliesgrandad]

50 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Might not need a WATER PUMP Les, but what about belt,pulley,tensioner ?

Everything was replaced apart from the actual water pump itself including the ancillaries belt. 

Interestingly the cost of the work including MOT was not far short of the 60,000 mile service on my last RX450h, which just goes to show how all manufacturers fund the small profit margins on new car sales with the cost of parts (and I did get a discount on both parts and labour). 

[m4rkw]

FWIW I enquired with an experienced tech as to whether I should swap out my water pump as preventative maintenance, my car is chain-driven so the water pump isn't on a typical service interval with a cam belt. He said on toyotas the water pumps usually give a strong indication that they're going out long before they fail, like a whine or obviously leaking, so replacing them pre-emptively isn't necessary.

[royoftherovers]

Just now, m4rkw said:

FWIW I enquired with an experienced tech as to whether I should swap out my water pump as preventative maintenance, my car is chain-driven so the water pump isn't on a typical service interval with a cam belt. He said on toyotas the water pumps usually give a strong indication that they're going out long before they fail, like a whine or obviously leaking, so replacing them pre-emptively isn't necessary.

I got 150.000 out of the water pump on the old Merc Mark.

Dammed annoying it was as it went on the Autoroute not far short of San Sebastian.

Still I had 24 hours in a pleasant French village with a lovely restaurant and wine.

[RgrWynne]

Well John you should have got a taxi to San Sebastián , most Michelin Starred restaurants of any City in Europe, plus I can vouch for the tapas bars.... just dreaming 

[Malc]

1 hour ago, m4rkw said:

He said on toyotas the water pumps usually give a strong indication that they're going out long before they fail, like a whine or obviously leaking, so replacing them pre-emptively isn't necessary.

ok I understand and that's good for most Toyotas then,  BUT on our V8s the waterpump really is a bugger of a job and done with the cambelt and pulleys at huge intervals as it's an " all day " labour rated job and all together

other cars I've had and waterpumps are relatively simple to deal with though 

Malc

[Texas]

In response to the title of this thread When is a full service not a full service?I'm of the opinion that unless you do it yourself or stand over the man while he does it, then its a brave person to bet the farm on it having been done fully and satisfactory as you would expect.