The high price of style and sophistication

[Barry14UK]

I was reading the thread which mentioned the need to change a complete headlamp in the event of a bulb failure and the very high cost of doing so and also having looked into it the amount of work necessary to make the change.  Furthermore, if we go back to cars of a few decades ago a failed headlamp bulb was something most people could readily do, even where it involved changing a sealed beam unit.  Of course headlights have improved considerably over the years and this is most welcome and they have also become more stylish but all at considerable cost.  This is true of other manufacturers too but I do question whether more uniformity and better standardization as well as easier installation/replacement and being able to just replace a bulb could be achieved if there was the wish to do so. But altering the shape of headlights and grilles is a relatively easy way for manufacturers to carry out a  'Face Lift', help sales until a much changed new model is marketed.

Headlights are of course only one item and one can think of many things that have changed which have been of great benefit, improvement in braking systems, and to suspension systems, power steering, safety features of various kinds and to engine efficiency and management and transmission systems being the main ones.  Also, air conditioning has become pretty standard along with ever more sophisticated infotainment systems.  So if you want all this you have to expect to pay for it but why should parts that are essentially the same be so much more expensive now even allowing for currency depreciation and devaluation? It is understood that there are more components to house under the bonnet such as aircon compressor fan and radiator, ABS unit, power steering reservoir and pump although this can partially be offset by relocating the Battery in the boot. Notwithstanding this, when it comes to replaceing a component, so many other parts frequently have to be removed to facilitate this.  It is almost as if the car is designed to provide extra time for mechanics to do this.  (I appreciate additional space is required to accommodate the hybrid system but the same applies to the non hybrid system when it comes to changing the rear plugs of the rear bank for instance.)  Then there is extraordinary time and cost involved in replacing a water pump as discussed on another thread.  I contrasted this with my experience on a MK2 Humber Septre  I had about 46 years ago.  We were about to go away on holiday and I had done all my checks the previous day.  I started the car and noticed a small amount of water on the drive as a few last minute things were loaded.  A slight trickle was coming from the water pump.  Luckily Grimes at Coulsdon who stocked Humber parts were only about 15 minutes walk from where I lived at the time and I purchased a new pump and fitted it and was ready to go within the hour.  I also got an allowance from Grimes on my old pump in due course. My car lacked power steering, air con and electric windows and just had a radio. It was an automatic with solid rear axle and leaf springs. I replaced the standard carb with a Webber and it would cruise comfortably at an indicated 85mph, probably a genuine 80mph, Top speed was about 96mph but I never had it flat out.  (It had disk brakes up front).  Apart from normal maintenance the only other thing I replaced was a noisy universal joint on the prop shaft. How simple it was in those days!  My car was in a fairly dark metallic green.  My father had the same model in maroon.  It was an attractive car in it's day and still better looking than some even today.  Here is a red example of the model from an era when cars were so much easier to work on. It shows various aspects if you click on main pic. Almost every car I have had since has become progressively more complicated and difficult to work on and require more tools.  http://mrdarcysclassics.com/car-classified/preview.php?controller=pjListings&action=pjActionView&id=39

[scudney]

Unfortunately everything comes at a cost/price,I call it swings and roundabouts,you win some,you lose some and sadly we the consumers seem to have no say in the matter but seem to want more and more of this so called sophistication and technological advancements which we then moan and complain about when the time comes to replace worn and broken parts as they now cost an arm and a leg to fix or replace.On the other hand you could equally say there's a conspiracy to drive out the independent garages especially with the amount of software that goes into modern cars these days and what its cost independent garages to buy and don't be surprised all we will be left in the near  future would be just the dealerships☹🤔

[Britprius]

That car was also produced as a Hillman minx, and Singer vogue there was possibly a Sunbeam version as well "alpine"?. Making a number of different named cars that were all basically the same  car in those days was normal. The difference was in the trim level or basic engine mods such as twin carbs.

John. 

[Gliderpilot]

1 hour ago, Britprius said:

That car was also produced as a Hillman minx, and Singer vogue there was possibly a Sunbeam version as well "alpine"?. Making a number of different named cars that were all basically the same  car in those days was normal. The difference was in the trim level or basic engine mods such as twin carbs.

John. 

It was a Sunbeam Rapier, I had one a long time ago.

[Barry14UK]

Yes the Sunbeam Rapier would have shared quite a bit of the Septre (range) components althogh it was a 2 door and was different in certain respects and I believe it had twin carbs and a bit more power.  The Sunbeam Alpine was  completely different being a 2 door sports car built to compete with MGA and perhaps MGB more so.  Interestingly they installed a V8 in a few of them which I believe was a Ford unit and it was called a Sunbeam Tiger if memory serves me correctly.  Must have been an innovation at the time.  MG fitted a 3L straight 6 to some of the MGB's and the rivalry continued. 

I guess manufacturers have to think up ways to entice drivers to buy new cars and things become 'must haves' in subsequent models. Some of these things work their way downwards through the ranges and of course any significant improvements by one manufacturer have to be more or less adopted by other manufacturers.   Another downside is that it only needs a few key parts to be damaged in an accident to cause a car to be written off due to complexity and cost nowadays.

Unfortunately, I somehow double posted this thread and I wonder if the Moderators could consolidate the two into one.please?

[PeterI]

On 2/6/2020 at 1:23 AM, Barry14UK said:

 How simple it was in those days!  My car was in a fairly dark metallic green.  My father had the same model in maroon.  It was an attractive car in it's day and still better looking than some even today.  Here is a red example of the model from an era when cars were so much easier to work on. It shows various aspects if you click on main pic. Almost every car I have had since has become progressively more complicated and difficult to work on and require more tools.  http://mrdarcysclassics.com/car-classified/preview.php?controller=pjListings&action=pjActionView&id=39

Not so sure it was a simpler time, your comment reminded me of the Jaguar XJ12 Haynes Manual which said something along the lines of "The V12 is a challenge for the home mechanic". Even in the 70s there were cars that were tricky to work. There are some nice shots of the XJ12 engine bay here, I'm glad I don't have the space for multiple cars otherwise my wallet would be in trouble, I'd forgotten how good the citreon CX looks and I want my old XJ6 back for the interior (although not the bills).

http://mrdarcysclassics.com/cars.php?controller=pjListings&action=pjActionView&id=50

I seem to remember that getting the brake drums changed on the XJ6/12 required taking the whole of the rear axle down to get access as they were inboard (I may have misremembered this)

 

[Ala Larj]

Also, despite the complexities of cars today they are generally more reliable. 30 odd years ago much of my weekends were spent adjusting tappets or points or topping up some fluid or other. Not to mention dealing with some kind of rust spot. I don't think there's any conspiracy against independent mechanics it's just that cars ( and many other products) are designed in such a way to improve efficiency of production rather than maintenance. The current capitalistic system depends upon us replacing rather than repairing.

[Delphius1]

Progress isn't always good. I well remember when virtually every car on the road had round 7" headlamps. Then cars got individual styling and manufacturers moved away from standardised parts to parts for a particular brand or range of cars. 

Now we have intelligent parts that link to a CANBUS network to save cabling, but that "intelligence" adds cost. 

Then manufacturers moved to LED headlamps where the LED lasts longer and is brighter than a filament bulb, but is part of the headlamp module. So if an individual LED fails, the whole headlamp needs changing, instead of having replaceable LED modules.

We've also added complexity in the form of "adaptive" headlamps that illuminate corners. 

All of this adds cost. I've seen replacement headlamp units now costing over £1200 each. 

But this cost isn't just limited to luxury cars. Sure, a Mercedes has more gadgets that a Peugeot 106, but the gap is becoming narrower. Small cars are getting the tech inside them such that extras like cruise control are just a software upgrade rather than hardware. But then adding accessories can sometimes require a software update because the car's systems need to be aware of the new accessory. An update only available at the dealer, so we're back to additional expense.

All of this complexity does have a benefit when it comes to safety, but does the advantage outweigh the cost? If you're buying a new car probably yes, because parts are covered by warranty, but outside the warranty period, it's buyer beware, because eventually having to replace a headlamp could write the car off, or it may be impossible to (say) add a towbar because the car requires a dealer-only software update.

The same goes for electric cars: the Battery is a huge cost and eventually replacement could be more than the value of the car.

We've already seen it with "lifetime" filled transmissions, where the word lifetime could mean anything. My advice is take "lifetime" as meaning the warranty period, however long (or short) that is.  

But all of this really is an indication that manufacturers want to move away from selling cars to leasing them instead (the apple "sales" model!). The era of car ownership will eventually come to an end.

[RgrWynne]

Whilst I sympathise with your view I think you are ignoring the legislation regarding safety and emissions, which is driving many of the issues you describe. I don’t think I would want to be a vehicle manufacturer today facing all the international regulations and whilst Toyota may remain profitable there are many who will not, Jaguar / Landrover as an example. The whole market has moved on in this technological age, for good and bad, so I am glad to still own a vehicle on which I can rely for a few more thousand miles, I hope ?

[royoftherovers]

8 hours ago, Delphius1 said:

Progress isn't always good. I well remember when virtually every car on the road had round 7" headlamps. Then cars got individual styling and manufacturers moved away from standardised parts to parts for a particular brand or range of cars. 

Now we have intelligent parts that link to a CANBUS network to save cabling, but that "intelligence" adds cost. 

Then manufacturers moved to LED headlamps where the LED lasts longer and is brighter than a filament bulb, but is part of the headlamp module. So if an individual LED fails, the whole headlamp needs changing, instead of having replaceable LED modules.

We've also added complexity in the form of "adaptive" headlamps that illuminate corners. 

All of this adds cost. I've seen replacement headlamp units now costing over £1200 each. 

But this cost isn't just limited to luxury cars. Sure, a Mercedes has more gadgets that a Peugeot 106, but the gap is becoming narrower. Small cars are getting the tech inside them such that extras like cruise control are just a software upgrade rather than hardware. But then adding accessories can sometimes require a software update because the car's systems need to be aware of the new accessory. An update only available at the dealer, so we're back to additional expense.

All of this complexity does have a benefit when it comes to safety, but does the advantage outweigh the cost? If you're buying a new car probably yes, because parts are covered by warranty, but outside the warranty period, it's buyer beware, because eventually having to replace a headlamp could write the car off, or it may be impossible to (say) add a towbar because the car requires a dealer-only software update.

The same goes for electric cars: the battery is a huge cost and eventually replacement could be more than the value of the car.

We've already seen it with "lifetime" filled transmissions, where the word lifetime could mean anything. My advice is take "lifetime" as meaning the warranty period, however long (or short) that is.  

But all of this really is an indication that manufacturers want to move away from selling cars to leasing them instead (the Apple "sales" model!). The era of car ownership will eventually come to an end.

Lifetime Mark, refers to the manufacturing life of the model.Usually 7 years, before a new model is launched.

[scudney]

Lol the fun,joy and despair of today's modern motoring 

[Lager shandy]

Rx450h cost 65k headlamp needed after 10yrs cost 1k

hilliam hunter cost 1500 headlamp sealed beam cost 25 after a year .

jump in your Rx450h change the oil once a year drive anywhere without fear of breakdown 100k miles no issues sold on immaculate 

hilliam hunter / Humber full service every 3000miles ,20k - 50k and lots of breakdowns rusted into ground after 5 yrs 

[Barry14UK]

On 3/9/2020 at 10:01 PM, PeterI said:

Not so sure it was a simpler time, your comment reminded me of the Jaguar XJ12 Haynes Manual which said something along the lines of "The V12 is a challenge for the home mechanic". Even in the 70s there were cars that were tricky to work. There are some nice shots of the XJ12 engine bay here, I'm glad I don't have the space for multiple cars otherwise my wallet would be in trouble, I'd forgotten how good the citreon CX looks and I want my old XJ6 back for the interior (although not the bills).

http://mrdarcysclassics.com/cars.php?controller=pjListings&action=pjActionView&id=50

I seem to remember that getting the brake drums changed on the XJ6/12 required taking the whole of the rear axle down to get access as they were inboard (I may have misremembered this)

 

The V12 engined Jag/Daimler engine although also used in some of the E types and later XJS only formed a very small number of the UK built cars and I believe was the only British built V12 of the time.  (Even Rolls Royce just used a V8)  It was not typical of the sort of car that the average home mechanic would service so falls outside the comparison I was trying to make.  The early models had inboard rear disc brakes (which some enthusiasts have subsequently converted to outboard) The XJS series of 1993 - had factory outboard rear discs.

[Barry14UK]

5 hours ago, Lager shandy said:

Rx450h cost 65k headlamp needed after 10yrs cost 1k

hilliam hunter cost 1500 headlamp sealed beam cost 25 after a year .

jump in your Rx450h change the oil once a year drive anywhere without fear of breakdown 100k miles no issues sold on immaculate 

hilliam hunter / Humber full service every 3000miles ,20k - 50k and lots of breakdowns rusted into ground after 5 yrs 

The Hillman Hunter was a boxy rust bucket and a real let down after the nicer lines and build quality of the MK2 Humber Septre and range but a 7" sealed beam headlamp was nearer £5 than £25 and you can buy a new one for under £15 today so let's not exaggerate!

Servicing was cheap and a doddle even if needed more often than required today. The RX is in a different class so not really a fair comparison but the time it takes to change plugs and a water pump with attendant cost is ridiculous.  Think you can be sure of doing 100k miles without a problem - take a look at some of the threads of those having faults? 

 

 

 

[GSLV6]

The only car I remember fondly from my youth was one my Father owned.  It was  a Woseley 16/60 in Maroon, I think a 1962 model with full leather seats, wood everywhere and a lovely series B 1600 engine.  It was one of the most reliable cars I can remember that we ever owned right up until the 1980s, and easy to home service.  At standstill with the engine running I well remember people remarking that they couldn't hear anything other than a gentle ripple of tappets.  It was a wonderful car and an example of one of the very best to be produced from the BMC stable, although styled by Pininfarina which was no bad thing.  I remains to this day one of the few classic cars I'd own in a heartbeat.

Other than that, I can't remember many vehicles from my youth or my early work days which I remember with as much fondness as most of my early cars, bought well used, were all trouble in one form or another.  The first really reliable car I owned was a 1980's Mk2 Cavalier 1600 GLS.  Whilst many of my mates drove around in fords, I felt like a king driving in opulent luxury in plush velour seats with (for the day) all the gadgets and the Mk2's 1600 lump was smoother than the equivalent ford and quicker as I seem to remember.  It remained reliable and easy to home service.  I had a mk2  Opel Manta GT after that which again was reliable, punchy and a bit different and I covered big miles in that car pretty much trouble free.  The same cannot be said of the 2 litre GT/E which I replaced it with.  It fell to pieces with rust and developed a  nasty rear differential whine.  Those engines though were good and far more reliable than the VW's I bought in the 1980's.   I had three of them .  A Mk2 sirocco gti...unreliable, with electrical issues, it blew the head gasket twice, snapped drive shaft bolts, had failed suspension at modest miles and I got fed up with break downs so sold it for a diesel passat estate needed for the space.  Similar story...cracked block, engine knackered after modest miles and it needed a new gearbox when that failed which I replaced myself.  I vowed I'd never own another VW after that.

Roll on many cars since then and now and my current 450h has been the most reliable of anything I've owned bar some warranty work for a failed auxiliary Battery and a steering rack replaced because whilst it worked fine, there was a slight knocking so it ticked the warranty box and cost me nothing.  I preferred the previous GS300 to drive and it was more luxurious inside, quieter and quicker imho, but I didn't want to part with what the gov't highwaymen wanted for annual tax and the RX was bought on the claimed economy savings over the GS...which in reality are neither here or there.   I don't hear of many headlamp units failing but if it happens, and the rest of the cart is sound, I'll pay for it and drive the car into the ground.

All cars cost in the long term.  There aren't many that over a 10 or 15 year period won't need at least one or two expensive items or services.  For what it is, the RX is probably one of the cheapest SUVs in class to run longer term,providing regular maintenance is carried out, which makes them so popular on the used market.  By comparison, I well remember my uncle's 1990's Jag xjr needing a new headlamp bulb or replacement unit and it costing him £1000 back then which he was spitting teeth over.

 

[Delphius1]

All the carb-equipped cars I had always need fettling. Usually worn jets, broken heaters or auto-chokes on the damn things.  Electronic fuel injection (as opposed the the mechanical variety) provided a step-change in reliability as far as I was concerned. 

Factory rust prevention measures stopped cars rotting to bits within 5 years, so bodies got better. My first car was a 9-year-old Audi 80 that was so rotten the rear suspension parted from the Body and had to be welded back on and even after that was fixed, the boot floor was so rusty if I filled it and jammed the boot lid down I expected everything to end up on the road below! I had a 10 year old Peugeot 505 that needed complete new sills both sides. Now cars easily surpass 15 years without any welding being needed.

Suspension parts needed to be changed almost on a yearly or two-yearly basis. Thankfully they last a lot longer.

Some things like fuel injection improved the car without a massive increase in cost and complexity, but when CANBUS and the other "networked parts" systems came in, it saved the manufacturers cost, but increased complexity and cost for the consumer.  And the more intelligent safety systems will only make things worse. Not only that, if parts are replaced and not aligned correctly can actually be dangerous. Just think of a lane-keeping system that isn't aligned correctly and keeps swerving to the side...  And the alignment is complex and dealer-only. 

OBD2 diagnostics started out as a great idea to help the independent and home mechanics, but manufacturers then went and made all but the basic diagnostics only available through proprietary software. Or mega-expensive professional readers that can interface with all the different manufacturers.

I assume that's why some of the simpler and cheaper makes like Dacia have such a good following. They're simple enough to be cheap relative to other makes and therefore easier/cheaper to service.

Car manufacturers sell some front end parts at a loss in order to reduce insurance costs and therefore groupings to boost sales. That's how expensive things like headlamps and bumpers with parking sensors can be.

 

 

[GSLV6]

I think it's true that the days of the most reliable petrol and certainly diesel lumps have been and gone.  Early to mid Noughties designs I think may have been the pinnacle.  Ever tightening EU emissions (and I'm not one that buys the whole emissions controls thing as being as significant as claimed and certainly not when compared with central heating!) , over complexity and limited operational serviceability or redundancy life of certain components effectively encourage and promote the changing of vehicles rather than economic repair.  As any mechanic what the value of any of the current crop of 3 cylinder tiny engines is, and they'll likely tell you they're disposable units.  Give me an LS or GS 6 or 8 pot lump any day, looked after they run to extraordinary mileages.

[Malc]

5 hours ago, GSLV6 said:

It was  a Woseley 16/60 in Maroon, I think a 1962 model with full leather seats, wood everywhere and a lovely series B 1600 engine.  It was one of the most reliable cars I can remember that we ever owned right up until the 1980s,

OK, I owned for 11 years a Wolseley 16/60 1969 in Rose Taupe and Sandy Beige, lovely comfy car and very reliable too BUT it certainly suffered from rust, outriggers etc and wings too AND at about 112k miles the engine was quite simply knackered and scrapped in 1983/4 ......  sadly just worn out

I saw one at a classic car show once, a beauty that the owner/family had from brand spanking new and he put its survival down to not many miles and having a sump oil leak / weep from new that no one fixed and which lovingly spread a protective film of oil all over the underside, for ever 

My Mk3 Ls400 at 229k miles now and my third Ls400 in some 20 years of having one for a daily driver is certainly the most reliable ( ok it's had it's moments too ) and comfy car I've ever had the privilege to own ........  8.5 years now with this one and 100+ k miles and hopefully much longevity left too ..... oh !, and a headlamp bulb is about £4.50 and 5 mins to change

Malc

[GSLV6]

You can only speak as you find I guess Malcolm. We had our 16/60 for some years without any issue and that engine had done over 140,000 miles and was perfect.  My father replaced a headgasket a few times (rather he annealed a copper gasket and refitted it) and once he removed the head and polished the ports and reground the valves, and that motor purred like a cat.  He was fastidious about oil changes and it had bodywork protection added.  As we didn't own it for as long as you owned yours then I can't say what condition it would have been in 11 years down the road, but when we owned it, it was lovely in all respects.  I'd happily take a restored one now if I had garage space.  It remains one of my favourite classic BMC models.

Mind you, he also owned a Triumph 2000TC Bullnose which after a few years and close on 100K miles developed very expensive engine trouble needing new pistons, but I liked that too, so much so I bought a Mk2 and that turned out to be a huge mistake.  I bought on the cheap (mistake nr 1) and bought the later BL made Mk2 (mistake nr 2) and just about every panel underneath, including sills, wings and floor plates all needed welding work or replacement.  Plastic bags filled with horsehair were used for noise insulation and placed in between inner and outer wings which did a fabulous job of speeding up terminal rust! The engine had to be taken apart, the head reground and the engine rebuilt.  I also put a new exhaust on it a new distributor, the sides needed re-spraying and I re-carpeted the whole interior and saw to damage on the woodwork finish.  It cost me a small fortune.  The suspension bushes were also all knackered, and then the thrust bearing on the clutch went.  That was the last straw.  I sold it and made a small loss after my costs were taken out.  I loved the engine and the shape of the car but buying a BL made anything was bound to end in tears.  Earlier bullnoses were, by and large, better made I think.

The LS400 I think was my 2nd favourite of all time Lexus cars.  My favourite was the equally well appointed non CVT GS300V6 which I rate as the best car I've ever owned.

[Barry14UK]

My father had a Wolseley 16/60. They were big roomy cars with large boot and tons of room under the bonnet but underpowered. I had the MG version. Actually, I preferred the previous model, my MG Magnette ZB Varitone which had more character and twin carbs but was still slow! Both were reliable and I had the ZB for about 6 years. The only mechanical work I did on it was to replace the twin SU carb's needles and jets at about 60K miles but the starter ring had worn and sometimes jammed when I sold it at 100K+ miles. Rust was a problem (as with many cars of the period) and I part built the front wheel arches with fiberglass. This gave me the excuse to repaint the car blue rather than it's original grey. My 1^st and previous car was a Morris 1000 saloon which was reliable and served me well and was also easy and cheap to maintain. My next door neighbour currently has the traveller version with wood framed rear panels and it's pretty good for it's age. I have told him he should get the front drums converted to discs. Braking is the disadvantage with these old cars. I know that they are tax exempt but I wonder why they are fetching so much money now?

Other than renewing the needles and jets on the SU carbs of the MG, ZB, I never had any carburettor problems with any of the cars I had except for balancing the carbs on a V8 Maserati Indy. Generally speaking cars were much easier to work on and without the need for so many specialist tools. Looking back, I don't think I had a lot of problems with those old cars and with the later ones a V6 Camry produced the most problems. (broken cable inside harness, leaking oil pump housing, front wheel bearing, radiator, boot hinges, head gaskets and replacement suspension bushes).

Yes it's nice to have a greater selection of 'toys' nowadays but are some of them really needed, take electrically operated windows with more to go wrong than manually wind up ones or electrically operated seats as examples? When all works well the greater sophistication is nice but we pay for it both initially and when things go wrong. It's reached a stage where even the average garage is limited in what they can do so you pay main dealer prices in such circumstances.

[scudney]

And its looks like it's only going to get worse and more expensive,on the newer cars with LED lights,you cannot change the dioxides so once they begin to go you will have to change the whole light cluster whereas all you needed to do in the past was change the blown bulb☹🤔