Oops - what have I done! Bought RC200t

Linas.P · January 30, 2020

You should not take it out of context. This only applies for comparison between mk3 IS and RC. Further I have already explained that actually I haven't spend more on RC than it would have costed me to get comparable IS.

I do agree your question have merits, but the question you should be asking is "why not GS450h?" - this would be better question. Answer for it is fairly simple - because I wanted coupe.

As well you basing your argument on assumption that I wanted car with 4GR-FSE, which is not correct. I mentioned 4GR-FSE in the historic context to justify criticising Lexus for not improving their product for over decade and then replacing it with even worse product. That does not make 4GR-FSE satisfactory choice today, it just makes 8AR-FKS even less satisfactory..

royoftherovers · January 30, 2020

On 1/28/2020 at 7:50 AM, Cactus said:

That is a precise summary lol

Square peg in a Round hole came to my mind !

Linas.P · January 30, 2020

5 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Square peg in a Round hole came to my mind !

Actually, I think this is exactly represents what are 200t and 300h engines to RC body 👎

MartinH · February 8, 2020

This was all very illuminating. I was toying with the idea of replacing my 07 Mk2 IS250 with Mk 3 200T. After reading the above, that idea goes in the bin.

rich1068 · February 8, 2020

I think that would be silly without trying one.

dutchie01 · February 8, 2020

Well, it seems to make perfect logic to some to simply buy one for the looks alone?

Linas.P · February 15, 2020

@dutchie01 - it wasn't for the looks alone - it was good deal all considered, right colour combo, fully loaded car and competitive price.

The problem with "trying" one is that you never get to "know" the car in simple test drive. I was quite lucky to get RC300h for weekend and that was enough to find all good, bad and ugly about the car. However, testing one in dealership for 15min with sales guy on your side gives you no idea.

On 15 min drive, I would take 200t over 300h 10 times out of 10, but equally I would think that simple 250 is better than both.... "yet probably I just need to get used to it". Problem is that it won't happen. I had IS200t few years back as loaner during the service, but as I wasn't really looking to change car back then probably I haven't given it right shake down. My memories was that I didn't like it, but it wasn't "offensive" to drive.

Contrary, had spin in LC500 today and it instantly felt "right" and natural place to be, the strangest thing is that it was more fuel efficient than 200t during "spirited" test drive, or as spirited as it gets with sales guy by your side.

That LC500 is better than RC200t, that would not surprise anyone, but at the same time I feel it supports my argument that 8AR-FKS is just s*** engine design. Just how 500hp and 2 ton LC500 is more fuel efficient than 2L turbo RC, makes no sense! Obviously, I don't need RC to get there, simple RC-F would have done the job, but I would have never considered RC-F before living with RC200t for some time and understanding how bad it is.

As well as I mentioned, at some point I have decided that I will go for either 300h or 200t, whichever comes first with right options and for right price. 200t was first to come and I don't think my opinion would have been any different. In entire Lexus lineup the only remaining reasonable engine is 2UR-GSE now and without going into entire discussion about 350 (2GR-FSE) I think there is clear issue with that.

F.A. · February 15, 2020

So is the 200t being replaced with an RCF?

dutchie01 · February 15, 2020

A 4 cylinder turbo engine will only be good on fuel when you dont use the turbo.... When that wheel starts spinning fuel efficiency goes down the drain it has always been like that. In spirited driving i guess you will push the car when possible and there it could be a big difference with the 500bhp LC. On thesame road with thesame speed it could well be you are using 80% of the power of the 4 and 35% of the 8 pot. Tests in real world driving have shown that a BMW 320 petrol turbo is considerably less efficient than the BMW 3ltr 6 cylinder it replaced. It is all about Co2 as we all know, the dreaded 95 grams....... By the way an LC is a totally different world than an RC in my opinion i am not surprised you prefer it!

Linas.P · February 15, 2020

1 hour ago, dutchie01 said:

you are using 80% of the power of the 4 and 35% of the 8 pot

Don't even need to compare LC500 vs RC200t, I am doing exactly same drive in RC as I did in in my IS250 and V6 used to do 26-28MPG, where 2L+t does 18-22MPG now. Obviously, this is to do with how I drive the car, but the point is that I driving both cars exactly the same yet difference is unbelievable.

It is actually, funny how arguments change when I have the car now - previously I would say exactly the same thing i.e. "2l turbo is just for emissions and inferior to v6" and people would say that I am sad loser who simply cannot afford the car. Now when I have it, the response is - "of course 2l turbo is 💩... everyone always knew it". Other thing is that RC200t is never runs without turbo on (that is probably what you want in order to eliminate the turbo lag), so basically one cannot drive it efficiently. Finally, it is true - I should have known better, should have learned my lesson with WV Passat CC that small turbo engines sucks.

LC is definitely in the different league, but I am not sure if I even want that. I am satisfied how RC looks and regarding general practicality of the car, the only issue for me is the engine and for that I don't need to go as far as LC.

1 hour ago, F.A. said:

So is the 200t being replaced with an RCF?

probably, eventually... The reality is that - if I px RC200t to RC-F it would be like ~£5-10k down the drain. So I will need to wait until right car comes-up for right price and I would have finance to "absorb it".

ColinBarber · February 15, 2020

Might be worth disconnecting the Battery to reset the engine/transmission memory to make the gear changes more appropriate to your driving style.

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

I might give it a shot, however I feel issues is much more fundamental than gearbox "learning" my style.

One thing, which may support your theory is that I found car to be more fuel efficient in sport mode, than it is in normal or eco. I think it doesn't upshift as much in sport, therefore when I want to accelerate it gets quicker to right gear and I get more predictable feeling - in turn I don't need to press pedal harder than necessary just to make car shift, less shifting and more accurate gear selection for the situation results in generally more efficient driving. Seems counter intuitive, but in the end of the day it burns less fuel.

The only issue with that, suspension becomes noticeable harder and Start/Stop no longer works... compromises and compromises with Lexus.

ColinBarber · February 16, 2020

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

The only issue with that, suspension becomes noticeable harder and Start/Stop no longer works... compromises and compromises with Lexus.

Do you have a fully manual mode, whilst still being in normal mode? The gearbox is a variant of the one used in the F cars - in manual you have lockup of the torque convertor in all gears expect 1st. This is the more fuel efficient mode and obviously the most predicable with gear changes.

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

Yes, if you select sport+ and set gear leaver in S, then it becomes fully manual. However, it doesn't really help - gears are too short and have too much of overlap in ratios. So let's imagine I am coming towards roundabout @50MPH, I would need to downshift from at least 5th to 1st sequentially. I guess theoretically I could get used to it, but it is far too many gear ratios to make sense when changing manually - this is not exactly fault of the car, but my brain is capped at remembering up-to 6 gears 😣

Secondly, although gearbox is the same the engine is very different - you have wide power band to play with and with 200t, it is very short. Further, if we are talking about making it more efficient, then I need to avoid having car in RPM above like 1500RPM... this is not really achievable in practice.Whereas if you want to be efficient in F, it is enough to shift around 2500-3000, which is natural range to be at.

F.A. · February 16, 2020

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I might give it a shot, however I feel issues is much more fundamental than gearbox "learning" my style.

One thing, which may support your theory is that I found car to be more fuel efficient in sport mode, than it is in normal or eco. I think it doesn't upshift as much in sport, therefore when I want to accelerate it gets quicker to right gear and I get more predictable feeling - in turn I don't need to press pedal harder than necessary just to make car shift, less shifting and more accurate gear selection for the situation results in generally more efficient driving. Seems counter intuitive, but in the end of the day it burns less fuel.

The only issue with that, suspension becomes noticeable harder and Start/Stop no longer works... compromises and compromises with Lexus.

Is there no customisable mode where you can set the engine to sport and the suspension to normal, or is this just on F models? I guess that won’t help the start stop issues though...

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

Not that I know of - I probably should look deeper, before making comment of how old fashioned it is not to have customisable mode. I cannot find anything about it in owners manual... so asume it does not exist.

ColinBarber · February 16, 2020

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Yes, if you select sport+ and set gear leaver in S, then it becomes fully manual. However, it doesn't really help - gears are too short and have too much of overlap in ratios. So let's imagine I am coming towards roundabout @50MPH, I would need to downshift from at least 5th to 1st sequentially. I guess theoretically I could get used to it, but it is far too many gear ratios to make sense when changing manually - this is not exactly fault of the car, but my brain is capped at remembering up-to 6 gears 😣

Secondly, although gearbox is the same the engine is very different - you have wide power band to play with and with 200t, it is very short. Further, if we are talking about making it more efficient, then I need to avoid having car in RPM above like 1500RPM... this is not really achievable in practice.Whereas if you want to be efficient in F, it is enough to shift around 2500-3000, which is natural range to be at.

Just let the transmission do the downshifts, and you don't want to just be at 1,500 rpm - you said yourself that it seems better in Sport when the revs are higher. Economy isn't just about the rpm of the engine, throttle angle and engine load by being in a gear that will allow easy acceleration also help.

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

I think that regardless of what we are discussing here it would be right to conclude that this engine defeats the purpose of its own existence. Can I find workaround and perhaps get used to it - maybe, but that does not make the design any better. The sole reason was economy and emissions, but clearly it is worse in both. Yes you right - I cannot run it @1500RPM, because it simply would not have enough power to move car ar heavy as RC and as such would be inefficient, further turbo engines are designed with force induction in mind, so they never run really efficiently outside of boots range.... yet when turbo spools-up and then again economy goes through the window.

I think what I want to highlight here is the absurdity of the current trend of downsizing and turbocharging. Yes... I know we cannot do anything about that, but equally I just want to be very clear that anyone saying L4+t is better than either L6 or V6 are simply wrong, or haven't driven the cars and just qoutes stats from the paper. Further, I think one of key points I am trying to convey - Lexus spent 10 years and 100s of millions on R&D just to make their cars worse and that is disappointing! Obviously, they did it because of regulations, but they had a choice - do something in interest of their customers and invent something -or- do something to please the governments and their own stakeholders.

I think in the end of the day, I consider myself loyal to the brand, but I cannot ignore that the brand looked into what is going on and said "screw you customers"! And I know, this is business, not charity, but that does not help... especially knowing Lexus could have chosen either without sacrificing much. They could have gone and developed something which would be realistically both more powerful and more fuel efficient (like 4GR-FSE in 2005), but they chosen to simply look into regulation and instead of making something great, just make something which would satisfy the regulation by the letter rather than in spirit of it.

I would imagine the next question would be - "so what do you want, if you don't want to find the solution?!". Precisely... I am not looking for solution - I am just describing how bad and nonsensical is the design. At the same time it does not mean I do not appreciate the suggestions, and I will post here if I find any solutions for it, but that is not main reason why I am posting - main reason in nutshell is just to trash the trashy design and lazy engineering.

ColinBarber · February 16, 2020

The V6 wasn't going to cut it with new emissions laws. Lexus couldn't compete by using that.

It seems that the engine works for some and not others as people here have achieved averages of high 30s with an IS200t but others like you get low 20s.

doog442 · February 16, 2020

Hahahahahhahaha...I'm late with this as I've been away

After all the **** you gave me for having an IS200t you actually went and purchased something with the same engine :yes:

The same power plant you took great pleasure in ripping the ***** out of for years...the very same..and then you went and spent your OWN money on one

You've made my week...BTW I moved on having realised its limitations :tongue:

Enjoy it lol

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

But look... I still have a great pleasure ripping it apart!

Further, I was right all along saying that 200t is 💩 and was surprised myself how right I was to the smallest details criticising it without even owning the car. So perhap one does not need to own something to know?! I did have hopes that when buying it that I was wrong and it will be not amazing, but at least "alright"...

Was it worthy to spend my own money just to prove the point?! Probably not, but the RC on the other hand is beautiful car, really the only issue with entire car is the engine and the deal I got was very good.

doog442 · February 16, 2020

40 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

But look... I still have a great pleasure ripping it apart!

Further, I was right all along saying that 200t is 💩 and was surprised myself how right I was to the smallest details criticising it without even owning the car. So perhap one does not need to own something to know?! I did have hopes that when buying it that I was wrong and it will be not amazing, but at least "alright"...

Was it worthy to spend my own money just to prove the point?! Probably not, but the RC on the other hand is beautiful car, really the only issue with entire car is the engine and the deal I got was very good.

You based your whole critique of the 4 pot turbo on a test drive. Did you suddenly forget that ? Didn't you test drive this ?

You then proceeded to tell me how I should have and could have done so much better buying a 330i or something similar as the 200t was such a crap unit.

Ordinarily I'd congratulate you on buying such a fine looking car, with a totally capable engine but hell its probably completely wasted on you. :wink3:

Are you enjoying the ' Agricultural feel ' didn't you say it sounded like a tractor or does the RC hide that ? Just think, with your budget you could have waltzed into a 335i or a 2014 IS250 or an Audi or whatever.

Seriously, just enjoy it.

Linas.P · February 16, 2020

I give you that - it is hard to understand the car in the test drive... even when you know exactly what you are looking for. You see - it was not a test drive I had in IS200t, I had it for half a day as loner during the service. I haven't really spend that day to its full effect... probably because the car was not really inspiring. I recall and I have noted it - from my memory it was not offensive in any way, just dull.

I think my comments about "agricultural feel" are usually reserved for the diesel and I totally stand by them. What I remember saying is that engine was trashy under load... like most of L4s - and this is definitely 100% true... it is doesn't make sound at all up-to 4000RPM and then suddenly just rackets you with worst harshness imaginable.

My budget is one thing, however my requirements were very specific - the car must have been 2 doors, have sunroof and several other things.... yes indeed "decent engine" was one of the criteria. The sad truth is that "a drop of 💩 in the bucket of honey makes bucket of 💩" - the car I bought satisfies 9/10 of my wishes, sadly the one it doesn't is a biggie. I am still convinced RC350 in same spec would have been perfect.

I actually, justify the reason for buying the car if you bother reading and it still makes financial sense, however the commentary is based primarily on 2 perspectives:

How 💩 is the design of 200t and how backwards it is, especially considering that over decade earlier Lexus already had better engines
How it makes me feel

First one I consider to be beneficial for everyone, especially if they like me are stuck and could not decide which compromise to take in idiotic Lexus lineup. The second one really only benefits me, as sort of blow off valve for my dissatisfaction and helps me cope with the piece of 💩 the 200t is. Perhaps indirectly it helps other with their decision on which compromise to take - general conclusion from me being "don't buy a car with your brain, unless you are sure it will make you happy".

If I would be in the same position again, I would have waited for a bit longer or maybe negotiated a bit more on RC-F. Strangelly, having over £10k more in your pocket does not help the feelings?! Yes it makes no financial sense, but the smile on the face would have helped to forget it.

noby76 · February 17, 2020

11 hours ago, doog442 said:

You based your whole critique of the 4 pot turbo on a test drive. Did you suddenly forget that ? Didn't you test drive this ?

You then proceeded to tell me how I should have and could have done so much better buying a 330i or something similar as the 200t was such a crap unit.

Ordinarily I'd congratulate you on buying such a fine looking car, with a totally capable engine but hell its probably completely wasted on you.

Are you enjoying the ' Agricultural feel ' didn't you say it sounded like a tractor or does the RC hide that ? Just think, with your budget you could have waltzed into a 335i or a 2014 IS250 or an Audi or whatever.

Seriously, just enjoy it.

🙌 👍

doog442 · February 18, 2020

How's it going Linas.

Won any traffic light grand prixs yet :wink1: or are you choosing to waft along dreading the site of any BMW with something bigger than 116i on the back.