When would 4th Gen IS be announced ?

mpls · November 26, 2019

Lately there has been exciting news from Lexus/Toyota, with Lexus showing off the LF-30 EV concept as well as the almost production ready UX300e EV, whist Toyota showed off the new Toyota RAv4 (Prime) - plug-in..

It is the RAV4 that got me thinking, due to the specs that were revealed.. 302bhp, upto 39miles in EV mode, 90MPGe (USA ?) and 0-60mph in 5.8ecs etc..

I bought my IS300H outright early this year, though i am happy with the car and it has been very reliable, i didn't want more of the same by switching to a 2019 model through another personal PCP.. I wasn't really interested in any other brands and not really ready for full EV.. hence my thoughts for a next Gen IS and wish list.

If Lexus were to announce a new iS then it would need to up their game, considering the competition from BMW, Volvo, Merc plug-ins... in terms of the MPG and performace etc..

Is a replacement ready/paproved and when will it be announced ? or if the IS sized saloon in the elxus range be ended ?

LordByronUK · November 26, 2019

According to the latest news over on LexusEnthusiast, https://lexusenthusiast.com/2019/07/10/next-generation-lexus-is-is-f-sedans-coming-in-2021/

It's going to come out in 2021, but yes, Lexus do need to seriously up their game for the next IS. Even the latest RAV4 is faster than the current IS, 0-60 in 8.1secs. The next Hybrid IS must be faster than this if it's still to be taken seriously as a BMW 3 Series competitor, and compete with the other luxury brands. I'm personally not going to upgrade unless it's around the 7 second mark. I have heard from the dealership also that the next IS should also be launched with a plug-in version, so expect RAV4 plugin performance numbers I'm guessing.

Not just the IS though, what about the ageing NX. The ICE engine in the current NX is seriously out of date, and the vehicle is way to heavy with poor performance and fuel economy.

If these issues are not addressed in the next generation, then Lexus sales could start to take a serious hit, and don't get me started on infotainment... My partner and I are already thinking about changing brands for our next upgrades if things don't significantly improve.

ganzoom · November 28, 2019

The Tesla Model 3 has decimated BMW 3 series sales in the US, even though the 3 series is a brand new model. When 0% BIK kicks in here in the UK come April next year I suspect the same thing will happen here in the UK.

Although I have reservations about going fully electric due to our occasional long trips, buying another brand new car with a petrol engine is just completely crazy.

If Lexus wants to stay a big brand player (especially in the US), they need a full line of EVs ASAP. The RX sales figures will soon be under major pressure as Audi/Merc/BMW start ramping up with EV SUV offerings, along with Ford/Lincoln etc.

I can see why Toyota/Lexus go for the conservative approach, as they value reliability above all other things, where as our Tesla is literally like a test car, parts are constantly been upgraded/redesigned and than retrofitted.

However been so conservative in a very fast changing auto industry could be a dangerous thing to do. Despite over a dozen warranty visits over 2 years, our Tesla has done 31k miles, where as our nearly 5 year old Lexus has only done 27k. If we were forced to go down to one car, its the Lexus that would be sold without a second thought.

If you forced us to buy another car today to replace the IS300H, it will almost certainly by a LR Tesla Model S.

The current IS300H is in a golden period and still very relevant today as diesels are been banished, but EVs don't quite have the charging network or range 100% of the time. The next IS needs to be much more foward looking.

Casa1862 · November 29, 2019

I’d only consider a new IS if it doesn’t have those stubby horns that are on top of the instrument panel, all new Luxi seem to have them, look rubbish and poor ergonomically.

malcolmw · November 30, 2019

An interesting comment. Have you actually driven a car with these switches?

I have a LC500 with these "horns" and find them very easy to use. They are almost in your line of sight (no fumbling under the dash) and once you know which way to turn them for what function you want everything is very simple.

rayaans · November 30, 2019

When they say 2021, they mean 2021 MY. So I would say around March/June announcement and first deliveries in December 2020

I expect the new NX to be revealed in due course..... Only a few more months away

Shada · November 30, 2019

18 hours ago, Casa1862 said:

I’d only consider a new IS if it doesn’t have those stubby horns that are on top of the instrument panel, all new Luxi seem to have them, look rubbish and poor ergonomically.

If anyone from Lexus research and development is reading, id quite like a normal handbrake in the centre console but most importantly a proper fu£kin key that goes in a lock would be bloody marvellous instead of that crap we have to remember to put in a bag every night

ganzoom · December 1, 2019

^Hehe whilst I hope the exact opposite, no reason why your smart phone can act as the key theses days, and ofcourse linked with a decent App which allows for stuff like pre heating the car.

But given the total lack of functionality phone integration our current IS has, I would say the chances of going backwards to a physical key is more likely than Lexus been able to implement a truly connected car :).

chris1601 · December 1, 2019

If your smartphone's Battery is dead, or if you lose it/forget it/gets stolen, what's the backup way into your Tesla @ganzoom ?

ganzoom · December 1, 2019

@chris1601 I have a key fob for our X, but the Model 3 is all done via your phone though you get a smart card to use in emergencies. Tesla is suppose to be updating the software on the X at some stage so it can also work just via the phone.

The mobile App is almost separate, you can login to your car, unlock, pre-heat, remote start, track, even smart summon (in the US), from any phone any where in the world as long as you have your login details. My wife has actually driven the car when I left it parked near her work by remote unlocking/start using her phone App.

The App security is like any other banking/account based app on your phone, when you open the App you have to either unlock using biometric passkey or enter the login details. Anyone can download the Tesla app from the app store, but clearly unless you have a Tesla account with cars linked in its pretty useless :).

You can also use the App to look at/control all other Tesla products linked to the account, in my case our current X (including a previous one which was written off) and PowerWall, if in future we were to buy another Tesla it would also appear on the App.

The chances of Lexus been able to implement such connectivity for the next IS is 0%.

Dealkent · December 1, 2019

On 11/26/2019 at 5:03 PM, mpls said:

Lately there has been exciting news from Lexus/Toyota, with Lexus showing off the LF-30 EV concept as well as the almost production ready UX300e EV, whist Toyota showed off the new Toyota RAv4 (Prime) - plug-in..

It is the RAV4 that got me thinking, due to the specs that were revealed.. 302bhp, upto 39miles in EV mode, 90MPGe (USA ?) and 0-60mph in 5.8ecs etc..

I bought my IS300H outright early this year, though i am happy with the car and it has been very reliable, i didn't want more of the same by switching to a 2019 model through another personal PCP.. I wasn't really interested in any other brands and not really ready for full EV.. hence my thoughts for a next Gen IS and wish list.

If Lexus were to announce a new iS then it would need to up their game, considering the competition from BMW, Volvo, Merc plug-ins... in terms of the MPG and performace etc..

Is a replacement ready/paproved and when will it be announced ? or if the IS sized saloon in the elxus range be ended ?

I was under the impression Lexus were not going to do another IS model ?

What about the UX ? Or the ES ?

rayaans · December 1, 2019

23 minutes ago, Dealkent said:

I was under the impression Lexus were not going to do another IS model ?

What about the UX ? Or the ES ?

It's one of the biggest sellers in the US. It's definitely coming.

Shada · December 1, 2019

16 hours ago, ganzoom said:

^Hehe whilst I hope the exact opposite, no reason why your smart phone can act as the key theses days, and ofcourse linked with a decent App which allows for stuff like pre heating the car.

But given the total lack of functionality phone integration our current IS has, I would say the chances of going backwards to a physical key is more likely than Lexus been able to implement a truly connected car :).

What a load of faf! What happens when the phone is flat? Stranded! How long before the hackers find an easy theft of these!

the most successful security yet was a chipped key. Yes it was beatable but seemingly it wasn't worth the haste to the thieves.

See Nissan advertising the quashqui with the phone crap on it This stuff with the phones to control the car is utter nonsense

ganzoom · December 2, 2019

4 hours ago, Shada said:

What a load of faf! What happens when the phone is flat? Stranded! How long before the hackers find an easy theft of these!

I presume you also like to go back to living in caves and hunting for your own food ;).

According to my car its -1 currently, yet I cannot remember last time I had to go out in the cold to scrape the windscreen.

As for security, feel free to go and download the Tesla App on your phone and see how far you get trying to steal one. Tesla have been using this App since 2012, the cheapest Model 3 in the UK is £42k with a Ludicrous X costing £120k, if you can hack the App you have found your self a money maker, so go for it :).

As for Battery dying, its an electric car, I've long learnt how to manage Battery life on all kinds of products. Oh and what happens if you loss your key, how do you get into your car? I can just borrow anyones phone and be driving again in minutes :).

If you find the phone App such a hard concept to get, wait till smart summon is allowed in the UK.......

But its all good, because the chance of Lexus been able to implement such tech in the next IS really is 0%, so if you want to be stuck using 1980s UI Lexus has you covered!

Casa1862 · December 2, 2019

On 11/30/2019 at 2:02 PM, malcolmw said:

An interesting comment. Have you actually driven a car with these switches?

I have a LC500 with these "horns" and find them very easy to use. They are almost in your line of sight (no fumbling under the dash) and once you know which way to turn them for what function you want everything is very simple.

Yes I have driven cars with them, UX and EX, I'll concede that you do get used to them but having them near the gear level is fine and where you expect to find them, what I can't get over is how they look, absolutely horrific and quite why they carry it through the range I have no idea, seems a backwards step, other manufacturer are making everything more integrated and slicker, the rest of the interior is fine. It's just my opinion.

mrfunex · December 2, 2019

I wonder if they’ll do an F version? Some cooking hybrid would be nice - it seems Lexus have kind of stalled at that end of the market?

Shada · December 3, 2019

On 2 December 2019 at 4:35 AM, ganzoom said:

I presume you also like to go back to living in caves and hunting for your own food ;).

According to my car its -1 currently, yet I cannot remember last time I had to go out in the cold to scrape the windscreen.

As for security, feel free to go and download the Tesla App on your phone and see how far you get trying to steal one. Tesla have been using this App since 2012, the cheapest Model 3 in the UK is £42k with a Ludicrous X costing £120k, if you can hack the App you have found your self a money maker, so go for it :).

As for battery dying, its an electric car, I've long learnt how to manage battery life on all kinds of products. Oh and what happens if you loss your key, how do you get into your car? I can just borrow anyones phone and be driving again in minutes :).

If you find the phone App such a hard concept to get, wait till smart summon is allowed in the UK.......

But its all good, because the chance of Lexus been able to implement such tech in the next IS really is 0%, so if you want to be stuck using 1980s UI Lexus has you covered!

Lol no to living in caves, not against the odd hunt or fishing trip tho.

not stuck in the Stone Age but I'm not very big up on techy things and tend to get very frustrated when they don't work properly, particularly with software updates screwing things up ect.

And with the likes of online banking ect throwing fits now and again experiencing difficulties for days at a time I thing it just makes things more unrelayable than needs be.

I much prefer keys and levers ect independant from other systems I tend to find it makes things more relayable.

dont take the post the wrong way, I love the tesla. I love the style of them and love their dedication to the development of electric cars. If the infrastructure was in Northern Ireland for them I'd be seriously on the lookout for one. Just more so if it had a key and origeonal handbrake😊

Linas.P · December 7, 2019

On 12/1/2019 at 11:58 PM, Shada said:

What a load of faf! What happens when the phone is flat? Stranded! How long before the hackers find an easy theft of these!

the most successful security yet was a chipped key. Yes it was beatable but seemingly it wasn't worth the haste to the thieves.

See Nissan advertising the quashqui with the phone crap on it This stuff with the phones to control the car is utter nonsense

It is like saying internet banking is faf.... just get over it, sooner or later every car will have that... or alternatively you can switch off the grid. As a matter of fact most baking as we know it will change very soon - no more branches to visit.. even today 85% of banking is done online and the most successful and efficient banks like Starling don't even have physical pretense so it is better to get used to it.

That said any security can be beaten, it is just a matter of reward vs. investment. I remember somebody here telling the story about RS6 Avant (I believe it was in stolen IS-F thread). Long story short - guy had his RS6 stolen twice because at some time they were very popular target and third time around he had bollards installed behind the car. Few weeks later he found himself in situation where 5 guys with petrol bombs and baseball bats knocked on the door at 2AM and he just handled over the keys - else they threatened to burn his family alive. So security is really just a thing of perspective...

When you look into phone security you need to understand that you will not be going against Tesla security here, but rather Apple/Google. So it would be fair to say they know what they are doing when it comes to security, what Tesla needs to do is just to plug-in into standard API and it uses all latest encryption algorithms etc. Is it as secure as chip in a key? Probably yes, probably not... is it more secure than simple "keyless" entry - definitely yes. In the end of the day if thieves really wants your car they will come with council uniforms and will simply tow it away - don't even need to unlock it.

I can go forever describing all the features and how they can be used and why they are better/worse, but there are always going to be technology and progress deniers who would rather secure their car by blocking it in with 200 ton boulders from all sides like in the stone age...

Whenever Lexus could or could not implement it - we shall wait and see. Historically, they are very late adopters when it comes to infotainment - only just recently to Android/iOS car integration. Yet in some other aspects they are quite quick - e.g. keyless entry systems was one of the first to be fitted as standard in Lexus (I believe mk3 GS). The actual thing is relatively easy to do - as mentioned there are standard APIs for all these things from both google an apple, you just need to wrap it around with your design. In other hand Lexus owners tend to be older, so maybe it is measured decision to be a bit retarded when it comes to infotainment to cater for them.

matt8 · December 7, 2019

The concern is less so the security of the app and mobile device Linas.

The bigger concern is with the interface between the vehicle and the internet. That is where the risk of breach is. Poorly implemented security can leave cars vulnerable. Over the air updates (like Tesla offer) help manufacturers react to bugs / flaws (which are inevitable) and fix them.

Anyone remember the flaw with Nissan vehicles, where the code to authenticate with a car was simply the VIN? Nicely printed (usually) under the windscreen for all to see. That's like writing your password on a sticky note and displaying it in the window!

https://www.troyhunt.com/controlling-vehicle-features-of-nissan/

ganzoom · December 7, 2019

31 minutes ago, matt8 said:

The concern is less so the security of the app and mobile device Linas.

The bigger concern is with the interface between the vehicle and the internet.

And that's why Tesla is far ahead on web/true internet connectivity.

Elon Musk made his first million selling his start up web news bot, and his second million with PayPal. That was back in the age of Netscape etc.

Tesla is a technology company that is learning very quickly how to build cars. Where as Lexus is the otherway round.

The whole company cultral approach to technology integration between Tesla and Lexus couldn't be more different - For good and bad.

Our Tesla without internet connection almost feels as useful as a smart phone with no data connection, it really is more like a giant computer on wheels rather than a car that happens to have a few ECUs.

Lexus couldn't implement the level of internet integration Tesla does ever, its simply not in how the company thinks/works.

matt8 · December 7, 2019

5 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

Tesla is a technology company that is learning very quickly how to build cars. Where as Lexus is the otherway round.

+1

Linas.P · December 7, 2019

6 hours ago, matt8 said:

The bigger concern is with the interface between the vehicle and the internet. That is where the risk of breach is. Poorly implemented security can leave cars vulnerable. Over the air updates (like Tesla offer) help manufacturers react to bugs / flaws (which are inevitable) and fix them.

First of all, there are least of the risk when internet is used, because potential thief would not be able to know what needs to be intercepted and when. You are right to say that poorly implemented security would leave cars vulnerable... yes poorly implemented security would leave anything vulnerable. But this is same as saying that padlock is no good, because poorly protected key under flower pot could be accessed by anyone.. answer is - do not implement security poorly and do not leave your keys under flower pot!

Explaining it in the simplest terms any digital authorisation nowadays is done by exchanging encrypted certificates and there are many ways to do it. Unless some bonehead mistakes are involved in design (like using VIN for countersigning) these certificates are very difficult to crack. In particular case you mentioned about Nissan - there are several (not one!) bonehead mistakes with the app:

First of all app itself needs to be shielded - so no fiddlers or other crap can be connected, it is not that difficult I am running shielding on my apps which includes immediate shut down if any hookers, key-loggers, debuggers or screen readers are detected.
Then the API has to end to end encrypted, one should not be able to connect to the car without first exchanging encryption certificates
Third the connectivity should be encrypted end to end, so that JSON responses cannot be simply red in clear text and manipulated

All above are basics of secure communication and all are achieved by off the shelve APIs and certificates, no development or think required. I am sure Nissan has moved since 2016, but I am still bit disappointed as above app would not even qualify for our internal testing.

If the actual connectivity is concerned, then the internet is not even required, for example when you make contactless payments, there are no internet involved at all (in part of authentication), instead NCF is used, yet you authenticating money transactions. It could as well work over Bluetooth or wi-fi, in other words - local connectivity, in the end of the day it only needs to transfer encrypted key. Actually intercepting it would be very hard, furthermore because it is digital key it cannot be simply relayed, stored and replayed like radio signals used for keyless or remote keys, so even if intercepted it could not be decoded and used.

It is correct - if you want to turn the heating on in the car whilst you in your office 15 miles away... yes internet will be required. In terms of what authentication keys should be required - I don't know if there is standard for the cars, but for banking application applies what is called "strong customer authentication", it is multi-factor security which is very difficult to breach.