Environmental impact: Old or new?

[rich1068]

I had an interesting conversation with my eldest the other day.

He's no Greta Thunberg but he was suggesting that if we need a car then surely something hybrid or entirely electric would be better for the environment than a 17 year old GS or 14 year old 9-5. But I disagreed. My cars are all petrol, all are well maintained and I obviously can't drive them all at the same time. They may kick out more pollutants than something newer, hybrid or electric but surely the much overlooked environmental impact is the actual manufacture of new vehicles? The damage was done years ago with my vehicles. All those precious raw materials and energy used. All those chemicals and pollutants that go into the plastics that make up new vehicles. The virtually disposable nature of vehicles now, 3 or 4 years PCP and then who cares what happens to it. 

So what do you think?

[HarryM]

A good few years ago I worked on a Costing The Earth for Radio 4 regarding this subject. The conclusion was that brands like Rolls Royce, Land Rover etc who's cars are still on the road 30 years later were easily the most environment friendly. Even the largest, most gas guzzling cars will struggle to use as much energy as it takes to create it in its life time. 

The fact that the hidden stuff that goes into making it is never taken into consideration, from the steel making, plastic manufacture, air miles used transporting all the widgets from all over the world etc. 

Anyway, off to get a coffee with my reusable cup....

[rich1068]

I'll drive you there in my 3 litre Lexus. We can discuss how we're preserving the the planet for future generations 

[jumbojake]

the 'buy green' is a government tactic to stimulate the economy and manufacturing... always better to keep something running in good order   good for your pocket, good for the environment (just doesn't help the economy).... the should re-introduce the wombles to educate our young!

it is interesting the EU are introducing rules to make white good more serviceable... seems like someone gets it.

 

[i-s]

The overhead to produce an electric car as compared to an equivalent petrol car is about 3 tonnes of CO2. 

On current UK grid average (216g/kWh for 2018. 186g/kWh 2019 YTD (will increase as winter kicks in, tracking for just over 200g/kWh for the whole year. Source: https://electricinsights.co.uk/#/dashboard?period=1-year&start=2019-01-01&&_k=zbwgrc))  a typical EV will emit 34g/km (based on 2018 figure, 4 miles per kWh). A 40mpg average petrol car will emit 165g/km, and a 60mpg diesel will emit 128g/km (this is simply derived from the amount of carbon per litre of these fuels - this is not changeable). Thus in the UK there is a saving of around or greater than 100g/km of CO2 per km driven. That 3 tonne deficit from production is neutralised at 30000km, or just under 20000 miles. 

That's to say nothing of the overheads of fossil fuel - there's an 11% overhead in refining (ie for ever 9 gallons you get out of the end of the refining process, you burned the equivalent of 1 additional gallon), the impacts of transporting tonnes of crude and refined fuels around the place (if you drive 12000 miles per year then you're using over a tonne of fuel per year that has mostly been shipped from abroad. 

Then there's the impact of "consumables" - engine oil, filters, transmission fluids, spark plugs, etc. 

Over the life cycle of an EV it works out significantly lower CO2 emissions than an ICE vehicle. Keeping an old ICE vehicle going for longer will gradually lower its lifetime average CO2 per km (because the build overhead is spread over more km), but it will never get anywhere close to an EV. 

[rich1068]

While you clearly know your stuff, are you not concentrating a little too much on emissions/CO2? I don't disagree that my cars kick out more ******* than a new IS or i3, it's that difficult to pin down production cost to the environment figure when comparing to eg a perfectly usable 15 year old petrol car. The plastics, chemicals and precious metals. And not wanting to sound like a complete cliche, there's obviously a cost to producing the electricity required to run an EV isn't there?

 

[jumbojake]

agreed .. if you have to purchase a new car, the choice is obvious... as with any purchase, if you have a choice to make, make it with an environmental conscious

But the argument here is about the decision to scrap something that works perfectly well now, and manufacture a new car purely for the sake of reduced CO2 emissions.. the difference isn't 3T of CO2, but much much higher.  

A hybrid is not really an environmental choice... manufacturing CO2 cost is enormous and it still fundamentally an ICE vehicle.

The only option I would argue is that replacing a good ICE for a second hand EV makes sense ... but ultimately, scrapping something means

[rich1068]

I'm starting to think the only time I ever went full Thunberg was when I ran my '06 RX 400h.

The wider argument to this is when I browse Autotrader and see 10 or 15 year old perfectly usable, well looked after, big, safe family cars going for peanuts or just getting scrapped because someone is lured into a brand new Citroen. But that's another rant.

[The-Acre]

One other thing that's often not taken into account is the simple fact that most people can't afford a hybrid or electric car.  I'm all for making things last, I'll try everything I can to repair something before it gets scrapped and put in landfill.  As it happens Miss Thunberg, according to Greenpeace you're as much to blame as anyone for buying a mobile device. They say their production contributes 30% to global warming. If that's anywhere near accurate why is she communicating via social media using mobiles and not "telling" people never to buy another?  Everyone demonstrating will have one!  

[rich1068]

Should point out that my references to Ms Thunberg are entirely light hearted. I think she's an inspiration and parents should encourage more young people to be like her.

[The-Acre]

12 minutes ago, rich1068 said:

Should point out that my references to Ms Thunberg are entirely light hearted. I think she's an inspiration and parents should encourage more young people to be like her.

Hmm, 

[jumbojake]

I wish my teenager would shout at people in another country and point out their failings ..... instead of targetting us for a while!   

[OldTrout]

There was a research paper published some years ago which people who are interested in this subject might find illuminating. It is called "Dust to dust. The energy cost of new vehicles from concept to disposal." The research on which it is based began in 2001. The paper was published about 2006. I have put it here 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lydlvbh1bh661yz/DUST.pdf?dl=0

for those who would like to see it. I should warn you it runs to 458 sides.

As as taster here are a couple of paragraphs from page 10:

"For example, the Honda Accord Hybrid has an Energy Cost per Mile of $3.29 while the conventional Honda Accord is $2.18. Put simply, over the "Dust to Dust" lifetime of the Hybrid, it will require about 50 percent more energy than the non-hybrid version.

"One of the reasons hybrids cost more than non-hybrids is the manufacture, replacement and disposal of such items as batteries, electric motors (in addition to the conventional engine), lighter weight materials and complexity of the power package."

Figures may have changed since 2006

John

[Cotswold Pete]

To add my tuppence worth, running on hydrocarbons will damage the planet, and running on Lithium will damage the planet.

Lithium Mining

Ms Thunberg is right to want to save the planet, but Electric cars are not going to save the planet (or our grand childrens lungs - with particulates) The Oslo Effect

I drive a reliable Lexus knowing that my total carbon footprint is 'okay', and yes it would be nice to be able to walk to work (which I did when I lived in Central Bristol), and it would be nice to be able to afford to catch a train to have a nice break in the Lake District, rather than schlep up the M5/M6.

I remember the days when the old steel mills and coal mines of the Welsh Valleys had been poisoning the rivers (and soil) for many years, but now fish are back in the Ebbw, the Taff ,and the slag heaps are recovering.  (on the other hand we have just passed the problem over the the Chinese who are doing huge damage to their eco-system - watch the file from 2015 Behemoth)

I love my LS400, and if it were to die, I am not sure whether I could downsize to a Mazda 2 (like my missus has just done, 1.5litre 124BHP, over 50 to gallon), but I sure as heck am not going to scrap the 400 (or sell it on) just to get a heavy car with a big Battery.

No simple answers, which I am sure Ms Thunberg will appreciate as time goes by, but at least she is trying to get complacent politicians to take it a bit more seriously that we only have one planet