Which suitable 12v battery brand for replacement

[ColinBarber]

10 hours ago, dandreye said:

Tbh the replies above suggest it's hardly ever loaded, so I really can't imagine how it can possibly go anywhere into so deep discharge unless perhaps the car is left unattended for weeks and weeks.

Correct. If your Battery is in good health then you vehicle will easily survive 3 weeks unattended. However those 3 weeks are allowing the Battery to suffer slightly and so the next time you might only get to 2 weeks and 6 days. Keep repeating that spiralling decline until it cannot hold a charge over the weekend.

There is hardly any load on the Battery and hence Toyota only fit one that is quite small to save money and weight. Fine for the day to day but no so good when being left for weeks at a time where the power draw is the same as any other vehicle - so it won't last as long.

 

The situation we are in at the moment is a problem for all vehicles, not just hybrids. Vehicles aren't being used as much and often the amount of charge being put into the Battery in a week (be that from an alternator or a hybrid charging system) doesn't actually compensate for the power lost through keeping the alarm/central locking etc. operating and the natural discharge of the Battery and so after a month or two people are unable to start their vehicles - and the batteries, being left in a semi-discharged state, start to lose their ability to hold a charge.

The winners of this are the Battery manufactures who have never sold so many replacements.

[dandreye]

3 hours ago, ColinBarber said:

Correct. If your battery is in good health then you vehicle will easily survive 3 weeks unattended. However those 3 weeks are allowing the battery to suffer slightly and so the next time you might only get to 2 weeks and 6 days. Keep repeating that spiralling decline until it cannot hold a charge over the weekend.

That's exactly what seems to have been happening to it before we bought it as it had done just 50k miles over the last 9 years as per full Lexus s/h. It'll likely do better while with us as 3 weeks in summer once a year is going to be the max in our case in the foreseeable future. So if new Battery lasts at least 5 years I'll consider choosing a lead acid one correct. I already have a Yuasa HSB053 (YBX5053 these days) in my own car 2005 Honda Accord CL7. It'd have been nice to check its age somehow: now thinking it's likely the 2nd one (hardly the original one though), and seeing it still crank the engine upon return after 3-week summer holidays over the last few years is quite impressive (touch wood): that wasn't always the case even with larger/heavier 55-60Ah non-Yuasa batteries in my older cars. Having the YBX5053 do 5-10 years in CT200h with due care seems quite doable based on that. We'll see.

[Herbie]

17 hours ago, dandreye said:

Just unsure I understood this one: "for the purposes of starting the car it will become useless well before it fully discharges", particularly 'cos the 12V battery is known not to be used for starting the petrol engine. I thought as battery ages and loses capacity its voltage (which I suppose is exactly what matters for CT200h) follows in some related fashion, hence the more original capacity the longer the voltage will stay above certain critical threshold for the car to do the needed to light up that Ready light.

What I meant was that, if we say it takes 5 weeks from fully charged to fully discharged, there will be a point before full discharge where it will be so low that it's incapable of starting the car even though it's not fully discharged. I have no idea where that point will be or how to find out, but as a pure guess it may mean that the Battery is only good for starting the car for 4 weeks rather than 5 (hope that makes sense).

I once did a very unscientific test that seemed to show that it takes 20A or less for the hybrid system to achieve READY status. You'll see from the first photo below that with the doors open, the interior lights on and the radio on, the current draw from the Battery was 2.63A. I then got my wife to put her foot on the brake and press the power button and almost immediately the current reversed direction (as can be seen in the second photo and illustrated by the black bar under the 'DC' mark) as the DC/DC converter started squirting 9.65A back into the Battery.

It all happened in a fraction of a second. I was hoping to push the 'Hold' button to get the peak current reading being drawn from the Battery but it was just too fast. All I can say is that I don't think it went over 20A because I only remember seeing nothing higher than a '2' as the first digit.

 

However, my very sloppy and unscientific test fails to take into account one very important point and that's the pressurisation of the brake accumulator.

I already had the drivers door and the tailgate open but if they had been closed, the brake accumulator would start to pressurise as soon as the drivers door was opened. I believe that it only draws a small current to begin with but as pressure builds it draws more and more, until it's drawing about 40A when it reaches the limit.

Admittedly, by the time the driver gets in the seat the pressurisation has already completed by the time the power button is pressed, but the Battery has to be good enough to supply that, plus the (maybe) 20A to get the hybrid system running.

[dandreye]

47 minutes ago, Herbie said:

What I meant was that, if we say it takes 5 weeks from fully charged to fully discharged, there will be a point before full discharge where it will be so low that it's incapable of starting the car even though it's not fully discharged. I have no idea where that point will be or how to find out, but as a pure guess it may mean that the battery is only good for starting the car for 4 weeks rather than 5 (hope that makes sense).

Thank you for the clarification. I have no idea myself where that point is either - just thought the higher Battery capacity the further away the moment of crossing that point from above would be. 

That was a very informative test you carried out: thanks for sharing those figures. That test is now prompting me to buy an ammeter similar to yours 🙂

[Herbie]

18 minutes ago, dandreye said:

Thank you for the clarification. I have no idea myself where that point is either - just thought the higher battery capacity the further away the moment of crossing that point from above would be.

That's right. A 100Ah Battery will take twice as long to reach that point as a 50Ah Battery would, which is why you see such lengthy discussions in the RX forum as we try to find a higher capacity Battery that will still fit in the Battery box

Quote

That was a very informative test you carried out: thanks for sharing those figures. That test is now prompting me to buy an ammeter similar to yours 🙂

Thanks. The clamp ammeter is indeed a very handy bit of kit and although very accurate, they aren't expensive these days and are well worth having, as is the multimeter too.

[dandreye]

Just now, Herbie said:

That's right. A 100Ah battery will take twice as long to reach that point as a 50Ah battery would, which is why you see such lengthy discussions in the RX forum as we try to find a higher capacity battery that will still fit in the battery box

I did exact same thing in my boat and went for a 75Ah Ca-Ca Battery for my ~2000 90hp Mercury 2-stroke instead of a 50 or a 55Ah one that it came with (some capacity restrictions imposed by its rather underdeveloped voltage regulator / charger that I hardly remember in detail prevented me from going any higher. Extra capacity translates into a better safety margin when out there far away from the shore and may even save lives one day. The only problem is keeping it fully charged at all times (naturally from the motor implied). 

Wrt the clamp meter, when seeing it measure that circuit w/o detaching it I caught myself thinking "old style" all the time until now, which once caused a bit of pain when I tried measuring amp leak on a different car in the household and had to break the circuit and put the ammeter in between 🙂 Sadly there was nobody knowledgeable around who would laugh at it and point me at these clamp meters back then. These forums are so useful even beyond their main profile!

[dandreye]

Hi All,

New Yuasa has turned up in just 2 days since ordering (had to go for YBX5057 as 5053 had + and - swapped around vs the original one). Just wondering if I can connect the new one to the old one in parallel with temporary wires while swapping them in an attempt to preserve various settings? (clock etc) I'd do exactly that w/o hesitation in an ordinary car but am worried here because of all its smart electronics.

Thanks in advance!

[Herbie]

Absolutely no problem whatsoever in doing that, you'll be fine.

[LexusPartsDirect]

We would always recommend going genuine for your Battery replacement and it would look like the genuine option is also the more cost effective option at only £112.46 from us at Lexus Parts Direct.

https://lexuspartsdirect.co.uk/parts/lexus-ct/lexus-ct-2010-onwards/lexus-ct-engine-service-kits/lexus-ct-phase-1-12v-starter-battery/ 

[dandreye]

Battery swap for Yuasa YBX5057 has been successfully completed with just one nuisance: the vent hose plug didn't fit in. Apparently the YBX5057 has 2 smaller ports (ID=6mm, one at each side) while the stock one has a single large one at the side near the "+". Do I get it right that using even one of them will do? If so I'll connect the near one to the vent hose through an adapter, leaving the plug in the other one facing the body. 

[Herbie]

58 minutes ago, dandreye said:

Do I get it right that using even one of them will do? If so I'll connect the near one to the vent hose through an adapter, leaving the plug in the other one facing the body. 

Unless there's a gas-tight divider in the middle, which I seriously doubt, then yes, one vent hole should be sufficient I would have thought.

[Barry14UK]

Although the hybrid Battery has stored power for a long period, it only supplies the 12v Battery when connected to it and at a fairly low hourly rate at that so it can take quite a time to charge up the 12v Battery.  The 12v Battery has a constant discharge through powering the alarm, and depending on model satnav, central locking etc., and of course depletion over time as batteries lose charge even without load.  So short time connection is inadequate and it takes quite a time for the 12v Battery to be adequately charged.  It is of course possible to keep the 12v Battery charged by using a smart charger or solar panels (under suitable conditions.   Industry recommendations are to replace failed 12v batteries with ones of the same type.  (A larger Ah Battery can be useful if you are parking at an airport for example for long time, particularly where the Battery is a few years old).  Also,  if it can be accommodated, a larger Battery with greater capacity  means that it needs to be charged less frequently as Herbie calculated for example; useful where car is not used due to pandemic restrictions.  

[dandreye]

Herbie: I'll then blow into one of them to be sure. 

Barry14UK: It'll be nice to check 12v battery charging history but I don't know how to yet: will look for it with TechStream next time. Meanwhile I'm charging the old one at home and unless it loses charge again quickly afterwards as it recently did during the cold weather I'll keep it as backup and connect in parallel to the new one to aid it whenever going away, effectively doubling capacity.

[Poundy]

1 hour ago, Barry14UK said:

Although the hybrid battery has stored power for a long period, it only supplies the 12v battery when connected to it and at a fairly low hourly rate at that so it can take quite a time to charge up the 12v battery.  The 12v battery has a constant discharge through powering the alarm, and depending on model satnav, central locking etc., and of course depletion over time as batteries lose charge even without load.  So short time connection is inadequate and it takes quite a time for the 12v battery to be adequately charged.  It is of course possible to keep the 12v battery charged by using a smart charger or solar panels (under suitable conditions.   Industry recommendations are to replace failed 12v batteries with ones of the same type.  (A larger Ah battery can be useful if you are parking at an airport for example for long time, particularly where the battery is a few years old).  Also,  if it can be accommodated, a larger battery with greater capacity  means that it needs to be charged less frequently as Herbie calculated for example; useful where car is not used due to pandemic restrictions.  

I find a permanently fitted C-Tek comfort lead an ideal add on for easy charging and voltage check. Mine goes on a top up charge as needed or around 3 weekly in lockdown when usage is a lot less.

 

[dandreye]

Poundy: that's a Yuasa charger's comfort lead judging by the photo, isn't it? Exactly same looking one came with mine (YCX 0.8) and it was only recently that I discovered the benefit of these comfort leads. Might use it here too: good idea. 

[Poundy]

29 minutes ago, dandreye said:

Poundy: that's a Yuasa charger's comfort lead judging by the photo, isn't it? Exactly same looking one came with mine (YCX 0.8) and it was only recently that I discovered the benefit of these comfort leads. Might use it here too: good idea. 

Mine is a C-Tek smart charger but a similar beast I should imagine

[rhosneigr]

That looks like the c tec one that I've got fitted. Could do with the leads eing a bit longer as it's a bit awkward to reach with the back seat down through the back door. 

[dandreye]

I guess yet another company actually makes them all (both C-TEK MXS and Yuasa YCX) and just brands them differently 🙂

Meanwhile my old HJ-S46B24R Battery has spent >24hrs on YCX0.8 so far, almost all of those hours with just 2 LEDs on, hence at the full current (0.8A), so it must've eaten ~20Ah multiplied by some absorption % by now. Didn't expect it to be that discharged as 12.3V is ~70% charged... will keep watching it further.

[Poundy]

15 hours ago, dandreye said:

I guess yet another company actually makes them all (both C-TEK MXS and Yuasa YCX) and just brands them differently 🙂

Meanwhile my old HJ-S46B24R battery has spent >24hrs on YCX0.8 so far, almost all of those hours with just 2 LEDs on, hence at the full current (0.8A), so it must've eaten ~20Ah multiplied by some absorption % by now. Didn't expect it to be that discharged as 12.3V is ~70% charged... will keep watching it further.

Unfortunately the YCXO.8 is only really suitable for small batteries, lawnmowers etc. While it will charge the CT which in comparison to bigger diesel/petrol variants is reduced amperage it is still going to be a long winded job. 

For example it is only putting 0.8amp per hour into the Battery so a completely flat Battery like my 45amp Ct would take in the region of 56hrs to charge. Added to which smart chargers take longer to do the job as they go through various correction processes.

In comparison my C-tek MX 5amp smarter would reduce the 56hr charging time to around 9hrs if in the same condition. My Jag Xf R-Sport had a 100amp Battery on so you can imagine how long it would take the 0.8amp YCXO to charge that, 125hrs plus 😂

C-Tek also do a full 8amp smart charger which is a good choice if my current one gives up the job lol!

[dandreye]

9 hours ago, Poundy said:

Unfortunately the YCXO.8 is only really suitable for small batteries, lawnmowers etc.

You're right but there's also the other side of it: the higher the charging current the worse it is for the Battery long term. Even though the current "equal" to 10% of the Battery capacity is generally considered OK, using a fraction of that current is even better (time permitting of course). So it looks to me like too long charging time is the only real downside of those small chargers vs those like 5.0. Fortunately I'm in no rush to charge my backup Battery. In fact I bought that charger for a very different purpose: I keep it permanently connected to my boat Battery for about half a year if not more when it's not in use. All that time it "trickle charges" the Battery, hardly letting it lose any charge at all. IIRC I even saw such use case called something like "maintenance charging" mentioned in its manual. 

Reportedly some "really smart" chargers are able to achieve much faster charging times w/o sacrificing Battery life by means of pushing that current during the main charging phase (up to ~80%) in some special form that I'm unable to word properly because of limited b/g in this stuff (basically a complex shape of that current). One guy in Ukraine mocks all those C-TEK and YCX chargers alike calling them boilers and blaming their makers of masterminding worldwide conspiracy to profit from extra Battery sales and claims to be at the leading edge of the industry with his unique self designed/made charger implementing that kind of charging logic, promising to double Battery life. I would've tried it but there are lots of buyer complaints that it dies upon the very first AC spikes/troughs and he won't fix its design saying it'll otherwise go up in price and lose market share. That reason alone was enough to choose a different one, which the maker claims also modulates the current in a similar way speeding up the charging but has no such critical design flaws. Sadly it's in a different country and so I can't give it a try because of all those travel complications. 

Anyway, my backup Battery is now fully charged and is measuring 12.95V. We'll see how good it is at keeping that charge now. 

Does anyone know if there's a way to figure out when it was made by the numbers on it in the picture, at least the year?

 

 

[ColinBarber]

24 minutes ago, dandreye said:

Does anyone know if there's a way to figure out when it was made by the numbers on it in the picture, at least the year?

14/09/2011

[dandreye]

18 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

14/09/2011

Many thanks ColinBarber! Wow that's great: looks like it's done almost 10yrs of service. 

[Poundy]

16 hours ago, dandreye said:

You're right but there's also the other side of it: the higher the charging current the worse it is for the battery long term. Even though the current "equal" to 10% of the battery capacity is generally considered OK, using a fraction of that current is even better (time permitting of course). So it looks to me like too long charging time is the only real downside of those small chargers vs those like 5.0. Fortunately I'm in no rush to charge my backup battery. In fact I bought that charger for a very different purpose: I keep it permanently connected to my boat battery for about half a year if not more when it's not in use. All that time it "trickle charges" the battery, hardly letting it lose any charge at all. IIRC I even saw such use case called something like "maintenance charging" mentioned in its manual. 

Reportedly some "really smart" chargers are able to achieve much faster charging times w/o sacrificing battery life by means of pushing that current during the main charging phase (up to ~80%) in some special form that I'm unable to word properly because of limited b/g in this stuff (basically a complex shape of that current). One guy in Ukraine mocks all those C-TEK and YCX chargers alike calling them boilers and blaming their makers of masterminding worldwide conspiracy to profit from extra battery sales and claims to be at the leading edge of the industry with his unique self designed/made charger implementing that kind of charging logic, promising to double battery life. I would've tried it but there are lots of buyer complaints that it dies upon the very first AC spikes/troughs and he won't fix its design saying it'll otherwise go up in price and lose market share. That reason alone was enough to choose a different one, which the maker claims also modulates the current in a similar way speeding up the charging but has no such critical design flaws. Sadly it's in a different country and so I can't give it a try because of all those travel complications. 

Anyway, my backup battery is now fully charged and is measuring 12.95V. We'll see how good it is at keeping that charge now. 

Does anyone know if there's a way to figure out when it was made by the numbers on it in the picture, at least the year?

 

 

I have 2 vehicles in Australia that have been on C-Tek maintenance charge for over a year now because of travel restrictions during Covid19. a friend pops in and makes sure everything is going strong no problems.

They don't come any smarter than C-Tek with pulse charge and all the safety devices incorporated to auto shut down in the event of a Battery or charger problem. No way you could boil a Battery with these pieces of kit regardless of which amperage you choose.

I think the Ukrainian guy is talking out the other end of his body if he spouts doubling the Battery life with a charger that dies on the first power disruption and hasn't fixed it. Certainly wouldn't fit in with my criteria, still we all have different needs and "we pays our money and makes our choice" 😉

[-Rich-]

Well the 12v Battery in our CT was dead this morning. It's been 3 weeks since I last used it, I hadn't realised, otherwise I would've started the car up to charge it.

Hopefully I can jump start it with the booster when I get home otherwise I'll be crawling in to the boot again to open it!

I'm certain it's the original Battery so is 10 years old now. This did happen in the first lockdown too but has been fine since a recharge using my ctek. It's probably time to replace it though!

[dandreye]

Apparently there's a sticker atop it with the manufacture date in DDMMYY format. After a week of monitoring the self discharge rate of mine following a full charge (also 10yrs old) I can see it stabilize at ~0.01-0.015V a day, which is 0.08-0.12%. Assuming it's more or less healthy is there an easy way to measure its residual capacity now? E.g. is attaching a load with a known amp draw and watching how long it lasts on it going to stress the Battery too bad?