OIL ADDATIVE

[hondansxr]

so i have been using ZX1 extra lube for years put it in all my cars even an RX8 with no probs  , i have just noticed there is a sticker on the new box  saying that zx1 have not tested fully in hybrid cars , but some peole have used it with no issues ... 

the ice part of the car is only a standard internal combustion engine and an electric motor outside of the ice unit , if i am right . 

there is no crossing over of engine oil to the gearbox / etc or am i wrong . as i would like to put some zx1 in .  any help on this would be mucho appreciato

[NemesisUK]

The hybrid engine runs the Atkinson cycle as opposed to the more usual Otto cycle, perhaps that's significant?

[claytow]

I've used ZX-1 in my 2012 450h for the last 18 months with no issues. To be honest I never read it wasnt tested on Hybrid engines ... Mines been fine... So far..

[hondansxr]

brill thanks for getting back so quick , thought it would be ok as it is brilliant stuff , the warning is just incase i suppose , like every thing nowadays to save blame .

as i said i used it in an rx8 when everyone siad you couldnt ..

what your mpg like as i notice a slight inprovement with it . did you use it in the gearbox as well .

i put it in my engine on gs300 sport 2003 and gearbox , and my wife gets 31mpg on straight runs to work and back .

[royoftherovers]

Additive. 

I just cannot let it pass.

[hondansxr]

soory

[Britprius]

On 9/2/2019 at 8:23 PM, hondansxr said:

brill thanks for getting back so quick , thought it would be ok as it is brilliant stuff , the warning is just incase i suppose , like every thing nowadays to save blame .

as i said i used it in an rx8 when everyone siad you couldnt ..

what your mpg like as i notice a slight inprovement with it . did you use it in the gearbox as well .

i put it in my engine on gs300 sport 2003 and gearbox , and my wife gets 31mpg on straight runs to work and back .

Do not put it in the transmission under any circumstances. The hybrid transmission has the high voltage electric motors running in the oil, and this acts as a coolant. If the oil is in any way conductive to electricity "graphite, molybdenum, and many other so called oil improvers do conduct"  it can burn out the motors by short circuiting. Only the correct Toyota oil should be used for this purpose.

John.

[hondansxr]

Hi john yes realised that refrained from putting in gearbox cheers tho. 

 

[Hadrian]

On 9/2/2019 at 6:42 PM, hondansxr said:

so i have been using ZX1 extra lube for years put it in all my cars even an RX8 with no probs  ,

 

I've never used additives in any of the car's I have owned over the last 50yrs. and also had no engine or gearbox problems.

Maybe I am just lucky ?   :😊

[Lwerewolf]

On 9/15/2019 at 11:35 PM, Britprius said:

Do not put it in the transmission under any circumstances. The hybrid transmission has the high voltage electric motors running in the oil, and this acts as a coolant. If the oil is in any way conductive to electricity "graphite, molybdenum, and many other so called oil improvers do conduct"  it can burn out the motors by short circuiting. Only the correct Toyota oil should be used for this purpose.

John.

Ehh… The "nonconductive ATF" has been discussed over at Priuschat. I agree that engine oil additives shouldn't be poured into a transmission/diff/anything else, and that you shouldn't really be using them in the first place (very few good ones, and then they'll have to work well with the oil in the car... read up and decide) but the oil itself will become conductive over time - it is lubricating interfacing metal parts, after all. Haven't read of any such failures on Toyota hybrids, with the exception of the mk2 prius transaxle, but that doesn't appear to be tied to the oil used.

[Britprius]

4 minutes ago, Lwerewolf said:

Ehh… The "nonconductive ATF" has been discussed over at Priuschat. I agree that engine oil additives shouldn't be poured into a transmission/diff/anything else, and that you shouldn't really be using them in the first place (very few good ones, and then they'll have to work well with the oil in the car... read up and decide) but the oil itself will become conductive over time - it is lubricating interfacing metal parts, after all. Haven't read of any such failures on Toyota hybrids, with the exception of the mk2 prius transaxle, but that doesn't appear to be tied to the oil used.

If you read the post on Priuschat you will note  I was a regular contributor in the GEN2 section for many years with well over 5000 post many of which  were concerned with transmission failure, and the likely problems of using additives or other makes of oil than the Toyota specified product in the transmission.
Being a retired electronics engineer I know of the problems of both ware metals in the oil making it conductive, and the fact that oil subjected to heat cycles can become acidic. This is the reason high voltage grid transformers should have there insulating, and cooling oil checked for acidity on a regular basis.
There is a third problem in the transmission that adds to acidity of the oil, and that is dieseling. A phenomena where the gears meshing compress oil, and oxygen to the point where it ignites giving micro explosions in the oil giving off acidic compounds.
It "maybe" that some oil additives in engines or transmissions have some value or not, "if people believe they work, and worth paying for it's there choice" but unless the additive manufacturer will give a written guarantee that there product will not conduct or turn conductive, and will not degrade the insulation of the motor winding's under no circumstances should they be used.

John.  

[Lwerewolf]

I've gone through all the threads (that I could find) over there on the topic of ATF-WS (and a few on other sides - the participants were quite easy to spot), and I've also read a lot of other threads to which you've contributed. The acidity buildup of the fluid was the main point that stuck, if I recall correctly.

With regards to the "dieseling" - isn't that partially solved by the system being "closed" - i.e. cut off from breathing in additional oxygen? In addition, ATF acidity control is a concern for just about every modern automatic transmission, for a multitude of reasons.

Again, not implying that I'm advocating the use of additives in general, and especially in this transmission, but the "If the oil is in any way conductive to electricity" part looks a bit off to me - Toyota/Lexus states a "lifetime fill", which would surely make it conductive, especially after the initial break-in period 🙂

[aviator888]

There's no such thing as lifetime fill. If it is- their lifetime means 7 years.. but many cars will be run decades after that. Especially Lexus. Always use good quality oil from well known manufacturer. Additives are waste of money, that can potentially do more harm than any good. Why? Because they promise the moon but don't really deliver any facts. People believe everything that says on the can..  😄 

Best additive: change your oil often. Personally i change gearbox oil on all my cars depending on age. Full CVT flush on my 450h was about £250 by Lexus. They were reluctant to do that but i insisted. My current GS will go in soon aswell.. 

[Lwerewolf]

Some can, but there are usually already oils that have them... and as you said - on time OCIs, plenty of "exotic" MoS2/WS2/somethingsomething oils around if that's your thing.

About the lifetime fill - my point was that many high mileage cars do run it, and that the company doesn't appear to be worried about metallic particles accumulation having a significant effect on the EV components, and again I haven't read about a confirmed transaxle failure on anything other a gen2 prius (plenty of sudden inverter failures on just about everything though), not counting things like the bearings on the auxiliary oil pump-equipped models. Not saying that I'm not touching the oil 😄

[Britprius]

There were a significant number of Prius transmission failures reported on Priuschat. The gen1 versions suffered mostly with electric motor winding failure due to shorted turns compounded by bushes being used instead of bear races contaminating the oil with copper, and Toyota recommended changing the oil to WS. The gen2 used WS oil from the outset but still suffered winding, and bearing failure although the bushes were replaced with bearings.
Oil analysis proved the oil was heavily contaminated with iron ware metals at 30,000 miles the oil being very black in color along with a significant loss of viscosity. Rolling vehicle tests proved this loss of viscosity raise transmission friction levels significantly. The consensus reached was that the oil should be changed at the 25 to 30k mile mark, and then again every 60k miles. The ware metals at these intervals were minimal, and the oil maintained it's red color, but the viscosity loss was still running at around the 15% mark. 
Where the transmission does not rely on brake bands, and clutches for it's operation it makes sense to change the oil to reduce the possibility of transmission problems, from either electrical or bearing failure considering the low cost of such preventative maintenance, and the high cost of any failure.

Inverter failures on the gen2 Prius were rare, but when the inverter, and hybrid control ecu were combined as one unit in the gen3 inverter failures rose significantly.

John.  

[aviator888]

2 hours ago, Britprius said:

There were a significant number of Prius transmission failures reported on Priuschat. The gen1 versions suffered mostly with electric motor winding failure due to shorted turns compounded by bushes being used instead of bear races contaminating the oil with copper, and Toyota recommended changing the oil to WS. The gen2 used WS oil from the outset but still suffered winding, and bearing failure although the bushes were replaced with bearings.
Oil analysis proved the oil was heavily contaminated with iron ware metals at 30,000 miles the oil being very black in color along with a significant loss of viscosity. Rolling vehicle tests proved this loss of viscosity raise transmission friction levels significantly. The consensus reached was that the oil should be changed at the 25 to 30k mile mark, and then again every 60k miles. The ware metals at these intervals were minimal, and the oil maintained it's red color, but the viscosity loss was still running at around the 15% mark. 
Where the transmission does not rely on brake bands, and clutches for it's operation it makes sense to change the oil to reduce the possibility of transmission problems, from either electrical or bearing failure considering the low cost of such preventative maintenance, and the high cost of any failure.

Inverter failures on the gen2 Prius were rare, but when the inverter, and hybrid control ecu were combined as one unit in the gen3 inverter failures rose significantly.

John.  

Thanks John that was very informative and good to know :)