Water Pump: 2013 RX 450h

[Ian M]

My RX has been in for a service and MOT today.  All fine except that they have reported "slight play in water pump" and quoted me £395 for replacing it.  Since my car's still covered under the Lexus used warranty, I asked that the repair be done under the provisions of that warranty, at which point the dealer decided that the correct course of action was to do nothing just yet and to re-inspect in 6 months time, rather than replace it now.  Given that I have another 14 months to run on the warranty, I am happy to go along with that for the time being.

However, I wondered whether anyone else had had similar issues and came here to check.  A quick search doesn't reveal anything.

My car is a 62 plate, with just 45024 miles on the clock.

 

 

[ISJason]

Hi. Might it be better to have it changed now while it’s still under warranty ? Because I doubt something like that is going to get better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Ian M]

1 minute ago, ISJason said:

Hi. Might it be better to have it changed now while it’s still under warranty ? Because I doubt something like that is going to get better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The warranty has another 14 months to run, the dealer wants it back to re-inspect in 6 months, so there'll still be plenty of life left in the warranty then.  But you're right, next time, I will be pushing to get it done.

[DocT]

I suspect the dealer thinks any claim for "slight play" might be refused under the "wear and tear" exclusion on the warranty (para 2.2) as the pump hasn't actually failed..

They're happy to take your money directly, of course. 😉

[PCM]

1 hour ago, DocT said:

I suspect the dealer thinks any claim for "slight play" might be refused under the "wear and tear" exclusion on the warranty (para 2.2) as the pump hasn't actually failed..

They're happy to take your money directly, of course. 😉

Sounds a good price, if they do...

[Barry7]

If it needs replacing, it needs replacing. It will not get any better, and what if it lets go when you are miles away from home late at night? The dealer should replace as a preventative measure, and if the warranty claim is refused, it is down to them to fight Lexus, not for you to worry on every journey for the next six months.

Take it back and insist it is changed under warranty. If they refuse, advise Lexus of your concerns that the dealer is trying to drum up unnecessary work, until they realised that you were covered by warranty, and Lexus would reject the claim.

What will happen in six months? Self healing water pumps, if you have got one, I want one! 

[Lager shandy]

Hi have you asked them what lexus deem acceptable water pump bearing min and max to were its deemed as bearing failure as we all know they love tolerance in Japan and will have a figure.  A failed bearing to us is one that breaks up in engineering circles it's a tolerance of movement or even measured in bearing frequency noise.

[david foster]

Hi, My 2009 Rx 450 developed a "top of the engine noise" in November 2018.   I took the car into Lexus Bolton who quickly diagnosed a worn bearing in the water pump and strongly recomended that the car should not be driven.  Accepting this and relying on the extended warranty I instructed them to fit a new pump.  Lexus time allowed 11 hours!  [apparently it is a suspension removal job to access the pump].  The warranty claim was rejected.  Lexus Bolton were brilliant in that they supported me throughout in my claim.  My argument with the warranty company was that had I not been diligent in spotting the engine noise a seized bearing could have LED to overheating and damage to the engine.  Their reply was that had the cause of an overheated engine been diagnosed to a worn bearing any more substantial claim would also fail.  Beware the most important words in that policy document are "wear and tear"

[Ian M]

That is very interesting, David Foster, thank you. 

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, david foster said:

Hi, My 2009 Rx 450 developed a "top of the engine noise" in November 2018.   I took the car into Lexus Bolton who quickly diagnosed a worn bearing in the water pump and strongly recomended that the car should not be driven.  Accepting this and relying on the extended warranty I instructed them to fit a new pump.  Lexus time allowed 11 hours!  [apparently it is a suspension removal job to access the pump].  The warranty claim was rejected.  Lexus Bolton were brilliant in that they supported me throughout in my claim.  My argument with the warranty company was that had I not been diligent in spotting the engine noise a seized bearing could have led to overheating and damage to the engine.  Their reply was that had the cause of an overheated engine been diagnosed to a worn bearing any more substantial claim would also fail.  Beware the most important words in that policy document are "wear and tear"

We know that your vehicle was approx 10 years old David, but how many miles had it covered?

[Lager shandy]

Hi I can understand warranty dept saying it's wear and tear but that means everything's wear and tear on the car that moves why not just say take out a extended warranty but the water pump isn't covered . 11hrs seems a bit steep .i would expect a decent Lexus mechanic could do it in a few hours with power tools etc .

[royoftherovers]

13 minutes ago, Lager shandy said:

Hi I can understand warranty dept saying it's wear and tear but that means everything's wear and tear on the car that moves why not just say take out a extended warranty but the water pump isn't covered . 11hrs seems a bit steep .i would expect a decent Lexus mechanic could do it in a few hours with power tools etc .

I asked David for the miles his vehicle had covered, but he has not responded.

A water pump failure cannot fall into the definition of wear and tear.

[Ian M]

16 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

I asked David for the miles his vehicle had covered, but he has not responded.

A water pump failure cannot fall into the definition of wear and tear.

I too am at a loss to see how a water pump problem at 45k miles (as in my case) could be classified as fair wear and tear.  Such clauses ought to be applied to things like brake pads/discs, tyres etc - the stuff which is designed to wear. 

 

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, Ian M said:

I too am at a loss to see how a water pump problem at 45k miles (as in my case) could be classified as fair wear and tear.  Such clauses ought to be applied to things like brake pads/discs, tyres etc - the stuff which is designed to wear. 

 

Thanks Ian.

I have been uncomfortable for quite some time with the " wear and tear" reason (excuse?) often put forward to deny customers under the Exteneded Warranty arrangement.

I must say at this point that whilst I have had the cover for the last 6 years (and still have it) I have not been a victim to this scam (?).

Wear and Tear does not appear to be  defined in the Extended WarrantyAgreement, so we must look at the Dictionary Definition which is amongst other things 

"the damage which comes from ordinary use" 

In my view there is a world of difference between ordinary use damage (say, wear on seating covering) and a failure of an item which does not last a reasonable length of time,or fails to perform to specification (say, a water pump or a suspension part).

Furthermore (in my opinion) when ever Lexus warrants the vehicle for a further two years (and takes the full premium, as it does), it is warranting each and every Protected Part for the full two year period. 

I do not believe that employees at each Lexus Dealership, nor the Administrators at TGW Services Ltd possess the necessary knowledge to interpret the Agreement correctly and find it easier and more comfortable to use the wear and tear excuse.

 

If it occurred in my case ,I would have no hesitation in having the repair carried out at my expense and then suing Lexus (TGW)  via the small claims track of the County Court, where a legal interpretation would be given.

[Lager shandy]

has any got a copy of the small print regarding this warranty .

[david foster]

Hi, I am sorry if I failed to respond to Ian M's and royoftherovers's question,  forgive me I am new to the Club.

My car had done 125000 miles with virtually a full Lexus service history.

It is interesting that Lexus's quote for replacing Ian's water pump was only £395 whereas my cost was based on 11 hours labour.  I also note that his is a 2012 model against my 2009.  I asume that a major modification took place.  I was assured by the Aftersales Manager that that was the time allowed and I spoke to the technician who did the job who confirmed to me that that was how long it took.  I had also checked with  other dealerships and an independent Lexus engineer.  Lexus Bolton were very helpful in their hourly rate and  also by applying what is known as Mechanical Loss Avoidance [MLA] which is a scheme within Lexus designed to reduce running costs for older vehicles. 

It is ironic that royoftherovers suggests taking the case to the County Court as that, together with the Crown Court, is where I spent my working life.  Hard as it is to accept, where there is a disclaimer available to the warranty company in respect of "wear" [and tear] and the cause of the problem was a "worn" bearing I did not feel that I would have had success in any claim to the court. 

 

 

 

 

[Herbie]

Believe it or not, I can see why it takes 11 hours!

According to the workshop manual, the whole engine, hybrid transaxle and a whole host of other stuff has to be removed!

Looking at the screenshot below, Step No. 99 is to lift out the engine and transaxle assembly. Given that, I think they maybe made a mistake in giving Ian a price of £395.

[Lager shandy]

This is very interesting so what has changed on the rx450h to drop the install time .

 

[Herbie]

1 hour ago, Lager shandy said:

This is very interesting so what has changed on the rx450h to drop the install time .

 

I'm not sure anything has changed. As far as I know, all series 3 RXs have the same engine, from 2009 to the introduction of series 4 in 2015. I think they've made a mistake in giving Ian a quote of £395 - but I may well be wrong.

[Lager shandy]

I did watch a u tube vid showing replacement on a toyota same engine .only real issue is pump and pulley clearance to chassis rail inner wing which that jacked up engine to gain clearance look tight to inner wing there are always short cuts and book time to make money .

[Illogan]

On 7/31/2019 at 9:24 PM, Herbie said:

I'm not sure anything has changed. As far as I know, all series 3 RXs have the same engine, from 2009 to the introduction of series 4 in 2015. I think they've made a mistake in giving Ian a quote of £395 - but I may well be wrong.

Maybe Ian's garage meant to quote £395 per hour?   (😉 )

[Lager shandy]

Well this doesn't look too bad can't be that much different from the 450h ,once you've done a few there will be lots of short cuts .so to summarise 11 hrs my arse.🤐

[Herbie]

31 minutes ago, Lager shandy said:

Well this doesn't look too bad can't be that much different from the 450h ,once you've done a few there will be lots of short cuts .so to summarise 11 hrs my arse.🤐

If only life were that simple 

It's a completely different engine and a completely different set up. The RX350 is a petrol engine and the water pump is belt driven from the engine.

Because the engine doesn't run all the time in a hybrid nothing can be belt-driven, so the water pump in a 450h is electrically operated. Different engine, different pump, different orientation, different everything.

[Lager shandy]

This herbie I've looked online and can't find an electric water pump for the engine only the inverter assembly ? And all other listing are for a belt driven type.

[Lager shandy]

I know a lot of newer cars have water pumps .