new petrol with more Ethanol / CARE

[Malc]

just hearing that the Govt is considering greater use of ethanol in petrol

I know not the whys and wherefores of the arguments for any of this BUT 

the other day with my car at my indy,  his partner dealing with motorbikes was saying, while taking the carbs apart and cleaning them, that

' it's the ethanol in the fuel that rots out the fuel tanks '

Malc

[NemesisUK]

Ethanol in petrol reduces emissions, going from 5% to 10% will cut emissions by 2%.

Over 90% of UK petrol cars are compatible with ethanol, which of course means a significant number are not. All modern/current cars are compatible. Ethanol can soften and adversely affect rubber seals.

If concerned fill up with V-Power or Momentum etc, as these do not have ethanol added.

[i-s]

1 minute ago, NemesisUK said:

If concerned fill up with V-Power or Momentum etc, as these do not have ethanol added.

Be careful with that advice because I don't believe that it is true. 

One of the "benefits" of adding ethanol to petrol is that is a knock inhibitor - ie it effectively boosts the octane number of petrol, allowing it to be sold as a higher grade than if it did not have ethanol. See the Shell V power datasheet from 2013, showing that it does (or at least can - blends change throughout the year) contain ethanol: https://events.imeche.org/docs/default-source/team-info-2013/shell-v-power-product-information-2013.pdf?sfvrsn=2

High-octane fuels may in fact have MORE ethanol to boost the RON. 

[Malc]

and the fact that it rots out the petrol tanks prematurely  ?

Malc

[Britprius]

The fuel tank problem is generally related to motor bikes and marine craft that have tanks made of materials other than metal.
It is a fact that raising the level of ethanol reduces the number of mpg in a given car. So we pay for petrol that in effect is "watered down", but still pay for as if it was 100% petrol. 
Most fuels "not all" have had 5% ethanol for some time, but it is not required in law to tell you this at the pumps. However as soon as the 5% level is exceeded it is a legal requirement that the level of ethanol is clearly shown at the point of delivery.
Ethanol is damaging to paintwork. It also has an affinity for water meaning it can cause corrosion to metal fuel tanks, and fuel injection components. 
Ethanol generally comes from crops such as rape seed "it can come from other sources", and many would argue that land should be used for growing food crops.

John. 

[rayaans]

I think its also been mentioned that E10 will give reduced fuel economy by circa 10% so on a car doing 40mpg real mpg, itd be getting 36mpg.

Now, the real question is, is there any news on how much its going to cost? I can't imagine the general public using it initially for a few reasons: 

1) its new, people don't like change, its human nature and are more likely to use something they're familiar with

2) reduced fuel economy

3) general scaremongering

The above can only really be offset by reduced cost and a period of a few years to get used to it. 

[i-s]

1) People won't even know. They don't know that they're currently buying E5. No one will read the label that says what it is, and they won't be given a choice anyway. 

2) From what I've read, E10 provides about the same economy as E5. My Mother-in-Law used to buy E85 (in Oregon, USA - they had a flexfuel vehicle), because it was cheaper per gallon, but that was a false economy because E85 certainly does provide significantly less mpg. 

3) Kind of like this thread. 

[The-Acre]

34 minutes ago, i-s said:

1) People won't even know. They don't know that they're currently buying E5. No one will read the label that says what it is, and they won't be given a choice anyway. 

2) From what I've read, E10 provides about the same economy as E5. My Mother-in-Law used to buy E85 (in Oregon, USA - they had a flexfuel vehicle), because it was cheaper per gallon, but that was a false economy because E85 certainly does provide significantly less mpg. 

3) Kind of like this thread. 

And number 4,  who cares, there isn't much we can do about it.😳

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, i-s said:

1) People won't even know. They don't know that they're currently buying E5. No one will read the label that says what it is, and they won't be given a choice anyway. 

2) From what I've read, E10 provides about the same economy as E5. My Mother-in-Law used to buy E85 (in Oregon, USA - they had a flexfuel vehicle), because it was cheaper per gallon, but that was a false economy because E85 certainly does provide significantly less mpg. 

3) Kind of like this thread. 

Well they will know when they have 3 different fuels to choose from at the pumps with different labels include Es and Bs.

It's quite well known E10 doesn't give the same fuel economy. If everyone has to use 10% more fuel to travel, surely it'll outweigh the intended CO2 reduction they're trying to achieve as everyone will use 10% more fuel 

[i-s]

But that's my point. We currently get E5 but there isn't a separate pump for it. E10 will replace E5 as standard fuel. There won't be a different pump for it - there'll continue to be regular and premium, but with increased ethanol content. Exactly the same as when E5 was introduced and no one knew. 

Regular 95RON in finland has been E10 since 2011. 

As to whether it results in lower CO2 I don't know - if it lead to a 10% drop in economy then it would indeed be a false economy, but does it? What are the actual figures? A study in finland suggested that there's a 0.7% drop in going from E5 to E10: https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/study-fuel-consumption-e10-vs-e5-7-difference-17769.html

If it leads to deforestation to grow fuel crops (as has already happened in parts of the world) then I'd definitely agree that the net impact would be negative. However, if rapeseed oil can be used to do something useful (I'm allergic to it, and in its raw form it isn't fit for human consumption) then great. 

There's every possibility that E10 is just a bit of greenwash, that will have little real impact as petrol usage declines. 

[rayaans]

14 minutes ago, i-s said:

But that's my point. We currently get E5 but there isn't a separate pump for it. E10 will replace E5 as standard fuel. There won't be a different pump for it - there'll continue to be regular and premium, but with increased ethanol content. Exactly the same as when E5 was introduced and no one knew. 

Regular 95RON in finland has been E10 since 2011. 

As to whether it results in lower CO2 I don't know - if it lead to a 10% drop in economy then it would indeed be a false economy, but does it? What are the actual figures? A study in finland suggested that there's a 0.7% drop in going from E5 to E10: https://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/study-fuel-consumption-e10-vs-e5-7-difference-17769.html

If it leads to deforestation to grow fuel crops (as has already happened in parts of the world) then I'd definitely agree that the net impact would be negative. However, if rapeseed oil can be used to do something useful (I'm allergic to it, and in its raw form it isn't fit for human consumption) then great. 

There's every possibility that E10 is just a bit of greenwash, that will have little real impact as petrol usage declines. 

That's not true yet, maybe in the future but currently there will be the option of E10 and E5 at the pumps especially as some cars before 2011 are not suitable to run it.

[Malc]

and the fuel tanks rot out prematurely and people pay out for a new tank and the eco cost of making new/replacement fuel tanks might be ???

does anyone in authority ever investigate anything thoroughly enough I wonder 

Malc

[wharfhouse]

See:  https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/106137/official-e5-petrol-and-b7-diesel-fuel-pump-labels-introduced-on-uk-forecourts  about new pump labeling from September - in fact I noticed my local Sainsburys already has this now - pumps are labelled E5 for petrol (with regular and super options both labelled E5 at my local Sainsburys) and B7 for diesel. Most (if not all) fuel has been E5 here for a long time, just that the fuel stations didn't have to label the pumps. In some EU countries you see E5 and E10 so can choose which to use. Here is another link about E10 fuels - a bit old now but useful:  https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/emissions/what-is-e10-fuel-and-how-could-it-affect-you/  - note the paras (about E10): 

Can it be used in all cars?

In short, no. The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) estimates that 92.2% of the petrol-engined vehicles in the UK are compatible with E10, but the remainder are not. As of 2011, all new cars sold in the UK must be E10 compatible.

As a rule, drivers of cars registered prior to 2002 are advised not to use E10 in their vehicle, as problems have been reported. The RAC’s technical director, David Bizley, said possible damage can be “caused by bioethanol's corrosive properties which can lead to damaged seals, plastics and metals.

 

[wharfhouse]

And this for vehicle compatibility with E10 fuels:  https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf  - states for Lexus that:

Lexus: E10 petrol is cleared for use in all Lexus European petrol models made from January 1998, excluding:
• IS250 2.5 litre V6 with engine 4GR-FSE made between August 2005 and September ACEA E10 compatibility list – August 2018 10 2007.
• GS300 3.0 litre V6 with engine 3GR-FSE made between January 2005 and September 2007.
• LS460 4.6 litre V8 with engine 1UR-FSE made between August 2006 and September 2007.

[Malc]

that's a lot of exceptions and then what about the classics too ?

my 1932 Triumph Southern Cross Sports Tourer ?

Malc

[jcempire]

Esso super is ethanol free as I have a 2 stroke race bike which can't use ethanol otherwise the center sill gets destroyed quicker than the bearings.

From their website...

Esso super unleaded petrol (Synergy Supreme+ Unleaded 97) is ethanol free (except in Devon, Cornwall, the Teesside area and Scotland). We would therefore advise anyone who has concerns about the presence of ethanol in petrol to use Synergy Supreme+ – providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

[Malc]

10 hours ago, jcempire said:

providing they do not fill up in Devon or Cornwall, the Teesside area or Scotland.

can we check anywhere if this advice on location changes ?

Malc

[jcempire]

10 minutes ago, Malc said:

can we check anywhere if this advice on location changes ?

Malc

I think only by contacting the right person, these places are excluded because of the refineries used from what I was told. The guys in Devon and Cornwall used Morrison's super instead as that was free of ethanol but that was 4 years ago. BP super was free too but think they have added 5% now. Esso's FAQ could even be out of date now, ideally need to test yourselves to be sure.

[sam case]

Lexus are testing cars that use Hydrogen the only thing that comes out off the exhaust is clear water.

[Colin M]

I have been using Esso Synergy Supreme+ in my Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire 346 for several months now because the fuel is ethanol free. I might have to start using it my LS400s soon. 

[BigBoomer]

Hydrogen cars are old hat. Top Gear tested the Honda Clarity fuel cell car 10 years ago.

All these measures do is move the pollution elsewhere. Biofuels are currently driving major deforestation in the amazon and especially in Indonesia & Malaysia. I'm a fan of electrically driven cars, but Battery tech is still not up to the job, and hydrogen creation & storage is too difficult, expensive, and dangerous. It'll get there, maybe in 10 years.

[Mikaelse]

Hi guys. The ethanol contains less energy per volume hence the car will via the lambda measuring the correct mix increase the fuel delivered if it is possible.

It normally is for small added amounts.  

It seems to be ballpark 40 % more volume needed for pure 100% enthanol for same energy content as 100% petrol.  (An E85 running car seem to use about 35% more fuel which add up)

 Hence an increase blend from 5 % to 10 % in petrol will increase the volume used by approximately,

(1.4-1) x 0.05 = 0.02 hence 2% .

this will ballpark reduce the gasmileage by about the same fraction .    Hence if you get 25 mpg it will go to 24.5

Mikael 

[runsgrateasanut]

Filled up today plus added some redex (usually use Wynns injector cleaner) at local Garge and noticed on the Esso pumps E5 is now mentioned on 95 ron  and 98 ron.  Guess if I've been using it for a long time as mentioned here, it won't affect emissions for tomorrows MOT.  Did a bit of mileage to burn off any Supermarket short trip coke build up.  Thought it felt different? Just the fear of E5 I suspect. 

Emissions is always the worry although this year I have that front wheel back plate that is badly corroded and I hooked over the back of a Caliper nut to stop vibration. Impssible to get a replacement.   Oh, and where did that tiny amount of engine oil  leak out??

There's always something to worry about.    Only just recovering from Broadband death for six days courtesy of Beatty's wiring skills - doh!

Fingers crossed.

[Malc]

35 minutes ago, Greer said:

untill then I'll choose to ignore it

please do,................. the guy is a seasoned engineer dealing with motorbike engines and their issues over a lifetime 

Malc

[RgrWynne]

It is also worth remembering that higher concentrations of Ethanol have been used in petrol in Europe, certainly Spain, for a number of years. Not aware of any issues, and whilst I would prefer that not to be the case, I extensively used the petrol without any noticeable difference, or up to now any problems.