450h Judder and vibration

[m4rkw]

Just now, stringbender said:

I wish I could replicate what's bugging me at will. The car has a mind of its own!

Maybe this is where you should start, drive as normal and when the vibration happens take an assessment of as many variables as you can. Speed, throttle position, are you going up or down a hill, engine speed, gear if indicated. Try keeping the car in lower gears with S mode to see if that improves or worsens the occurrence. How often does it happen? Is it every time you drive? Once a day? Twice a week?

[olliesgrandad]

8 hours ago, stringbender said:

Thanks Les. Interesting to note that the only Lexus stamp in the book is the one I put there at Cheltenham. The one Lexus out there was at British Car Auctions in Banbury. I checked and was told that Lexus dispose of all their head office cars this way. Still seems odd to me, all the fuss about getting the Lexus stamp in the book and yet they don't even do it themselves.

Alan 

I certainly would be jumping all over the selling dealer to supply a properly stamped service history book. Please read the Big ring binder which lists all the components of an approved used Lexus and it specifically states that the vehicle must have an up to date service record showing it has been fully serviced by Lexus qualified technicians and evidenced by appropriate Lexus Centre Stamps and signature in the service log book. If it has an incomplete history then to qualify as an approved Lexus the supplying dealer must complete the most recent major service and update the record book. 

[stringbender]

I've been jumping up and down for a year now Les and am getting nowhere fast. Such a mistake to have ever gone to Milton Keynes but it's done now. I never saw the book until it was all signed and they'd got my money. I contacted head office who assured me that all was in order.  I bet all they did was to change oil and filter. Oh, the wonder of hindsight. Have downloaded that app & will see if there's any useful information there. Thanks for suggesting it.

Alan

[olliesgrandad]

16 minutes ago, stringbender said:

I've been jumping up and down for a year now Les and am getting nowhere fast. Such a mistake to have ever gone to Milton Keynes but it's done now. I never saw the book until it was all signed and they'd got my money. I contacted head office who assured me that all was in order.  I bet all they did was to change oil and filter. Oh, the wonder of hindsight. Have downloaded that app & will see if there's any useful information there. Thanks for suggesting it.

Alan

Alan please read the warranty book as if there is no full there has to be an auditable record to confirm a big service was done. I would certainly contact Lexus customer service. 

[stringbender]

6 hours ago, m4rkw said:

Maybe this is where you should start, drive as normal and when the vibration happens take an assessment of as many variables as you can. Speed, throttle position, are you going up or down a hill, engine speed, gear if indicated. Try keeping the car in lower gears with S mode to see if that improves or worsens the occurrence. How often does it happen? Is it every time you drive? Once a day? Twice a week?

After all this time all I've managed to find out is that the car is perfect when the engine is cold. Normally at around 1,200 revs you can begin to feel it and it's dependent on the engine speed. Knock out of gear - all OK. Change to next "gear" all OK. I call it "coming off the throttle" as you do that and the revs drop to the magic number then you can expect  to feel it  BUT ..... not all the time ! ( see why it's driven me mad ?). Today's trip into Bristol was fine & nothing you could complain about. Over the year I've even felt that there was a "periodicity" to it and felt like logging the mileage when it was quite acceptable and when it was truly awful. Like a child with a cough it'll be fine when you go to the doctor ! But how could that be ? Surely it must be random. The  only other thing is when I said that if the engine moves or tilts towards the back end then the exhaust system pushes hard against the rubber hanger and tries to squash it. As it's not very squashable then it transmits the judder into the car via the exhaust supporting bracket. Lexus have gone to all the trouble of welding an 850g counterweight bolted onto the main pipe and at about 50 mm out from it. So they must have known that this pipe can vibrate like an organ pipe - otherwise why bother ?

Anyway, they're not interested in even trying a different pipe as a test so I think I'm stuffed. I'll never feel the same again about the legendary Lexus customer service.

Alan

[stringbender]

3 minutes ago, olliesgrandad said:

Alan, I would certainly contact Lexus customer service. 

Been doing that for a year now Les. They're not interested & haven't even replied to my emails. It's a case of put up & shut up or sell up.

Sad.

Alan

[olliesgrandad]

At the end of the day the dealer who sold you the car is responsible in law if the goods are faulty. I know you are not local but pressurising them may be the best option. We have already shown you that the vehicle does not comply with the 'Approved Lexus' criteria. On the basis that you have not been supplied with previous keeper details or a service history the car may have been a daily rental car or have been 'clocked'. Sorry to be pushy but a trail of emails to the seller asking these questions and copying in Lexus HO may give you an inroad into getting it fixed. I'm sure if Lexus didn't own the car and you have been misled someone will soon pick up on it. 

[olliesgrandad]

On 5/30/2019 at 1:04 PM, stringbender said:

Thanks Mark,

We're away up north next week so will try an independent when we get back. The whole issue has totally sunk me. I thought I was getting somewhere when Jenny offered to replace the silencer and rear tail pipe. Whoopee ! but then I realised she meant the final tiny silencer box and last bit of pipe. I've got a 24 hour test drive booked with Mitsubishi (PHEV) but the RX has so much more spec. The first  half hour  test drive in the PHEV was totally serene but I hardly got the engine to cut in. Yes, I am fussy, but I know this car is doing something that it shouldn't and I wish there was some way of measuring/ recording the vibration and deep low frequency rumbles. You'd think a brand like Lexus would want to investigate this to make sure that it was eliminated from the build process. I'd love to know what a main section of the exhaust and boombox silencer costs to actually make from scratch. But no, there are pennies to be saved and who cares if a customer of over 15 years isn't happy?

Alan

I would avoid the PHEV like the plague unless you have very deep pockets. An acquaintance has a family member working at Mitsubishi HQ in Cirencester and has a PHEV company car. Fantastic when running electric but low 20s mpg when running on diesel (eg most of the time). Sadly most manufacturers these days are only interested in young people with PCPs. 

I had a really bad experience with BMW in 2015 with a brand new Mini. Numerous issues including a breakdown and bodywork damage caused by recovery on a car less than 6 months old. Active cruise control that randomly decided on an empty motorway that I was going to collide head on with nothing and so slammed on the brakes ( no fault codes - well there wouldn't be would there as the computer believed false information from the camera) , self parking that put the car in at a strange angle before deciding to abort the manoeuvre leaving me struggling to extricate the car. Auto headlights that reflected on a bridge , dipping on a pitch black Yorkshire Moor  and nearly putting me off the road. Oh and let's not forget the computer telling me that the car had a starting fault and to be recovered  so I drove it 2 miles home when in reality it required a complete new steering assembly which was not available in the UK for nearly 2 week's. Customer care was zero with no one admitting they had ripped away the wheel arch cover from the wing tearing it.  BMW customer service department were hopeless, their recovery company and the dealer both denying causing the damage yet clearly the strap from the trailer had caused the damage. In the end the service manager at the dealer picked up on the issue and sorted it. The part cost £120 and it took 20 minutes to fix, but they lost a customer who had purchased 2 BMW  brand vehicles in a 10 month period . 

[stringbender]

Thanks for the replies Les. Your experience with BMW sounds horrendous to say the least. Maybe I'll get in contact with Milton Keynes when I get back but I think they'll be having none of it. As I don't know what is causing my problem and I can't get it to do it whenever I want then I'm not in a good position. They'll do anything to avoid the word "fault" and say that what the car is doing is just something that I personally don't like. I've kicked myself for ever buying this car - made even worse by the fact that my old faithful was running like a dream. But you live and learn. They made their money very easily that day!

I'd have thought that the opportunity to check whether my issues were caused by the exhaust system being "not quite right" would have been worth investigating but I feel I've just been hung out to dry. 

I did get that My Lexus app but don't know what to do with it yet.

Alan

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, stringbender said:

Thanks for the replies Les. Your experience with BMW sounds horrendous to say the least. Maybe I'll get in contact with Milton Keynes when I get back but I think they'll be having none of it. As I don't know what is causing my problem and I can't get it to do it whenever I want then I'm not in a good position. They'll do anything to avoid the word "fault" and say that what the car is doing is just something that I personally don't like. I've kicked myself for ever buying this car - made even worse by the fact that my old faithful was running like a dream. But you live and learn. They made their money very easily that day!

I'd have thought that the opportunity to check whether my issues were caused by the exhaust system being "not quite right" would have been worth investigating but I feel I've just been hung out to dry. 

I did get that My Lexus app but don't know what to do with it yet.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I have just stumbled across this thread,

I`m sorry to read all that has happened over the last 12 months.Why don`t you simply get an independent engineer`s report and present it to Lexus/ Head Office--as was advised by Mark  in post 2 at the beginning of the thread?

Regards

John

[stringbender]

37 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Hi Alan,

Why don`t you simply get an independent engineer`s report and present it to Lexus/ Head Office--as was advised by Mark  in post 2 at the beginning of the thread?

Regards

John

Thanks John,

Apart from not knowing who could do this for me in Bristol then there's no reason. I've even thought of getting a new exhaust system custom made but that will invalidate my warranty. Also Lexus may simply ignore any report given that I'd paid for it. Looks like that's the only way to go now.

Alan 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, stringbender said:

Thanks John,

Apart from not knowing who could do this for me in Bristol then there's no reason. I've even thought of getting a new exhaust system custom made but that will invalidate my warranty. Also Lexus may simply ignore any report given that I'd paid for it. Looks like that's the only way to go now.

Alan 

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/independent-vehicle-reports

come on Alan, see if this can help you out.

 

Regards

John

[m4rkw]

28 minutes ago, stringbender said:

Thanks John,

Apart from not knowing who could do this for me in Bristol then there's no reason. I've even thought of getting a new exhaust system custom made but that will invalidate my warranty. Also Lexus may simply ignore any report given that I'd paid for it. Looks like that's the only way to go now.

Alan 

No. They cannot ignore a report from a qualified technician. 

 

 

 

 

[PCM]

10 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/independent-vehicle-reports

come on Alan, see if this can help you out.

 

Regards

John

+1!

[Barry14UK]

Les,

For the record, the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV has a petrol rather than a diesel engine which goes some way to explain why it's heavy on combustible fuel.  There is a diesel version of the Outlander but that's it's only means of propulsion. 

[Fsport]

I have a RX300 and get the random vibration/judder when accelerating sometimes.

For my car I expect it is the gearbox.  It first started to appear after having to reverse my car up a steep hill which it did not appear to like.  I'm sure the extreme reversing placed significant stress on the old gearbox possibly causing some minor damage.  Ever since, the car would vibrate in a certain gear at low revs but then disappear when in another gear.  Car generally drives fine still and has this week completed a 700 mile round trip.

However, I wouldn't expect gearbox issues in a new car like yours.

[stringbender]

14 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/consumers/independent-vehicle-reports

come on Alan, see if this can help you out.

 

Regards

John

Wow ! Many thanks John and to all who have contributed. I will check out the ombudsman link as soon as we get back home.

Alan

[m4rkw]

@stringbender i wonder if it could be torque converter shudder. http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

seems unlikely in a vehicle this new but you never know. try the brake test suggested in that article, ie while accelerating when the shudder occurs, touch the brake pedal at the same time. only touch it, don’t actually apply the brake, see if the shudder goes away.

[olliesgrandad]

8 minutes ago, m4rkw said:

@stringbender i wonder if it could be torque converter shudder. http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/203

seems unlikely in a vehicle this new but you never know. try the brake test suggested in that article, ie while accelerating when the shudder occurs, touch the brake pedal at the same time. only touch it, don’t actually apply the brake, see if the shudder goes away.

The RX450h has a CVT gearbox which as far as I'm aware doesn't use a conventional torque converter. 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, olliesgrandad said:

The RX450h has a CVT gearbox which as far as I'm aware doesn't use a conventional torque converter. 

Just what I was going to say too!

[m4rkw]

My bad!

@stringbender whatever happens please let us know the outcome. There's nothing more frustrating than finding a thread talking about an issue you have, with several ideas and suggestions mentioned, that then just goes dead at some point with the OP never going back to it. You could end up helping someone else years from now.

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, m4rkw said:

My bad!

@stringbender whatever happens please let us know the outcome. There's nothing more frustrating than finding a thread talking about an issue you have, with several ideas and suggestions mentioned, that then just goes dead at some point with the OP never going back to it. You could end up helping someone else years from now.

I think he will report back Mark.

He`s had some sound advice.

[rayaans]

Not read through everything but - 

My RX450h started to shudder and vibrate. It was like the car was shivering almost. Awkwardly, mine is a Lexus Cheltenham supplied vehicle LOL

No codes were thrown up so I took it into Lexus Bradford 2 days out before the end of 3 year warranty - they took a look and said try a fuel cleaner like redex which didnt work

So I had it booked in after a week and they diagnosed and replaced injector 1 - solved all issues for me

 

[Barry14UK]

8 hours ago, rayaans said:

Not read through everything but - 

My RX450h started to shudder and vibrate. It was like the car was shivering almost. Awkwardly, mine is a Lexus Cheltenham supplied vehicle LOL

No codes were thrown up so I took it into Lexus Bradford 2 days out before the end of 3 year warranty - they took a look and said try a fuel cleaner like redex which didnt work

So I had it booked in after a week and they diagnosed and replaced injector 1 - solved all issues for me

 

Earlier in thread OP said the problem became noticeable only after the engine had warmed so I think it very unlikely to be an injector.  When an injector is at fault the car tends to run noticeably rough from the outset and regardless of temperature.  I had this happen on an Opel many years ago (in the happy days when spark plugs were easy to reach) and luckily there was no difference when I disconnected the 1st plug lead I tried. I replaced the corresponding injector and all was well again.  Bradford were on the right track when they suggested trying an injector cleaner which can sometimes work but didn't in your case.

Unfortunately, as regards the problem the OP has, I can't come up with anything that has not been said already, although I am inclined to suspect a problem with the gearbox.  I am assuming there is no possibility of a caliper sticking which would be more noticeable with build up of heat.

[Barry14UK]

I subsequently realized that a sticking caliper would exhibit symptoms regardless of mode of propulsion and regardless of transmission stick 'gear' position but not clear how one can edit post on this forum. Now see it's probably because 5 posts needed.

Edited June 3, 2019 by Barry14UK
Further thoughts on post and way forum works