450h Judder and vibration

[stringbender]

After driving an 05 RX300 for 13+ years I bought a 17 plate RX450h Premier last year. It's driven me mad ever since.

On its Battery and when cold the car is perfect. Once everything's hot is when the problems start. There can be a nasty judder when pulling away that's felt across the front of the car and up through the steering wheel. At just over 1,000 rpm there can be a deep, deep low frequency rumble and I have no idea where it's coming from. To my mind it's the main exhaust pipe vibrating and the large silencer box which may be the cause. Drop the car out of gear and it disappears as it does when you shift to a different "gear". 

Neither Lexus Bristol nor Cheltenham think there is anything wrong but none of the 450h courtesy cars have had this kind of issue.

Could there be  a problem with the engine mounts ? or the CVT ? or the drive train ?

Can anybody help please ?

[m4rkw]

At that age I'd assume it's under warranty so I would take it to an independent toyota specialist and have them diagnose it, then take the report to the stealership and make them fix it.

Definitely doesn't sound like something a Lexus should be doing.

[BachelorDays]

Can they not reproduce these symptoms when testing it? If they can but still maintain its normal then they should show it to you in a similar car.

[stringbender]

Does anybody know an independent  Toyota specialist in Bristol ? Lexus just want me to shut up and go away. It is a problem replicating the judder. I've become sensitive to it and I know exactly when the engine is spinning at 1,200 revs. Unlike a proper car you can't just hold your foot on the throttle and feel for vibration. The engine decides when it's going to spin and at what speed and for how long. On some occasions the judder is truly awful but they say they haven't noticed it. I wanted them to test out a new exhaust on it but they aren't going to do that. I can see underneath that the silencer is pressed hard against the supporting bar ( as if it were made too long ) but every avenue I've explored I've  drawn a blank.

Alan

[olliesgrandad]

Cheltenham Lexus are usually very helpful. Have you taken someone from there out in the car and replicated the problem? 

[stringbender]

14 hours ago, olliesgrandad said:

Cheltenham Lexus are usually very helpful. Have you taken someone from there out in the car and replicated the problem? 

Yes Les. I was advised to go there and explained that the vibrations are more easily felt coming from under the drivers seat. When I was pretty sure it was playing up the technician (Mark) who was driving said " Oh they all do that ". Well none of the other six I'd driven did ! 

I thought I was getting somewhere when Lexus HQ offered to replace the silencer. Turns out that she meant the last little section and not the section with the big boom box in it.

I find it hard to understand why 4 of the six rubber hangers allow maximum back to front movement (with a mall amount of side to side movement) whilst the other 2 prevent back to front swing! They allow a tiny amount of back to front swing and every time I look underneath the rubber is crushed against the mounting bar. That's why I wanted to try a new section to see if it was the cause of the problem.

Such a shame for such a lovely car.

[m4rkw]

8 minutes ago, stringbender said:

When I was pretty sure it was playing up the technician (Mark) who was driving said " Oh they all do that ". Well none of the other six I'd driven did ! 

Ask him to demonstrate the issue to you in another car. If they can't then you can demand that they fix it.

[stringbender]

1 hour ago, m4rkw said:

Ask him to demonstrate the issue to you in another car. If they can't then you can demand that they fix it.

I like that angle Mark. The trouble is  that I've been at this for a year now. Neither Cheltenham or Bristol take me seriously or think there's an issue.  As I said there are times when it can be really bad but what makes that happen is beyond me. I wish I could film what the hell is going on down there. I keep thinking that the engine is not properly mounted or that a mount has become damaged. In truth I've no idea !

Alan

[m4rkw]

Just now, stringbender said:

I like that angle Mark. The trouble is  that I've been at this for a year now. Neither Cheltenham or Bristol take me seriously or think there's an issue.  As I said there are times when it can be really bad but what makes that happen is beyond me. I wish I could film what the hell is going on down there. I keep thinking that the engine is not properly mounted or that a mount has become damaged. In truth I've no idea !

Alan

Take it to someone who knows what they're doing and doesn't have a vested interest in you shutting up and going away. Demonstrate it to them if you can, if not leave it with them and ask them to drive it until they experience it.

[stringbender]

58 minutes ago, m4rkw said:

Take it to someone who knows what they're doing and doesn't have a vested interest in you shutting up and going away. Demonstrate it to them if you can, if not leave it with them and ask them to drive it until they experience it.

Thanks Mark. When the new service manager took over at Bristol it was agreed that he'd use it as his own car for 3 days. That idea didn't last long. They drive the thing for just a few miles and say there is no problem. I will do as you say as I'm now seeing the only solution is to sell her and then buy .... what ?  I love all the smooth , silky image building that Lexus employs but they've written me off or so it seems.

Alan

[BachelorDays]

If the mechanic can't see it, they can't diagnose it. We've all been here. I can understand your frustration.

The way you've described it I'm thinking it's quite likely a transmission issue. Have you tried driving in different gears? Just put it in 2 (or it's equivalent in your car) and then drive around. See if you can replicate it.

Down another avenue, does the car also lose any power when this happens?

[stringbender]

9 minutes ago, BachelorDays said:

If the mechanic can't see it, they can't diagnose it. We've all been here. I can understand your frustration.

The way you've described it I'm thinking it's quite likely a transmission issue. Have you tried driving in different gears? Just put it in 2 (or it's equivalent in your car) and then drive around. See if you can replicate it.

Down another avenue, does the car also lose any power when this happens?

I can probably replicate the vibe as I throttle back and the revs. drop to around 1,200. ( at any speed) .  Not that this happens every time though. Knock her out of gear. Vibration gone. Drop a " cog " vibration gone. Something in the engine, transmission, gearbox, exhaust or silencer box is not happy at all at these revs. I can't help thinking that whether this happens or not must be to do with where the engine is sitting on its mounts.

As I said before I'm bewildered !

Alan

[olliesgrandad]

From your previous messages do I gather you bought the car used. If so it sounds likely the issue was already there. Which dealer supplied the car? 

When I had my wheel issue Cheltenham tried to claim and Lexus Warranty insisted I went through Derby who supplied it. Eventually after Lexus Warranty rejected the claim Lexus Customer Service sorted it. 

Think you may have to pressurise the garage you bought it from. 

Is there any sign of accident repairs which might have put something out of alignment? 

[stringbender]

12 hours ago, olliesgrandad said:

From your previous messages do I gather you bought the car used. If so it sounds likely the issue was already there. Which dealer supplied the car? 

When I had my wheel issue Cheltenham tried to claim and Lexus Warranty insisted I went through Derby who supplied it. Eventually after Lexus Warranty rejected the claim Lexus Customer Service sorted it. 

Think you may have to pressurise the garage you bought it from. 

Is there any sign of accident repairs which might have put something out of alignment? 

Thanks Les. I bought the car just about 1 year ago from Milton Keynes. I'd only really driven an RX300 before and was overwhelmed by the thing. I mentioned a deep exhausty thuddy/throbby

/boom after the short test drive. but got the usual whitewash from the salesman. I was amazed that he didn't know where the 12 volt Battery was and had trouble working out how to open the bonnet ! The car was an ex Lexus Head Office car and had only just come to them. Or so they said. I asked the guys at Cheltenham if there was any sign of an accident or whether the main exhaust pipe was original or had been swapped and they said it all looked normal.

It was a huge mistake to have gone through with the purchase and one that I've deeply regretted ever since. I'd never buy a car from a dealer that was over 100 miles from home and this is looking like it's the end of my days with Lexus.

Alan

[PCM]

Have you had friends etc., drive the car to form an opinion?

I'd be escalating this to Lexus HO. 

12 months sounds far too long to get a resolution!

[m4rkw]

Even at 12 months you still have rights, and if the car is under warranty all you need to do is prove the fault. I would do this:

1) Invest the relatively small amount of money it will cost for an independent toyota specialist to diagnose the problem for you.

2) Take their report to Lexus and demand satisfaction. Explain that you've been messed around for 12 months, you're really unhappy, and you've about had it with Lexus and will likely never buy anything from them ever again. And you'll try your damndest to make sure nobody you know does either. When presented with evidence of the fault I'm pretty sure they will back down, and you can then argue for compensation for the money you had to spend getting a diagnosis that Lexus themselves were apparently unable to provide. I doubt they'd reimburse you the actual money but you could ask them for some free servicing to compensate you for your loss and frustration.

[olliesgrandad]

3 hours ago, stringbender said:

Thanks Les. I bought the car just about 1 year ago from Milton Keynes. I'd only really driven an RX300 before and was overwhelmed by the thing. I mentioned a deep exhausty thuddy/throbby

/boom after the short test drive. but got the usual whitewash from the salesman. I was amazed that he didn't know where the 12 volt battery was and had trouble working out how to open the bonnet ! The car was an ex Lexus Head Office car and had only just come to them. Or so they said. I asked the guys at Cheltenham if there was any sign of an accident or whether the main exhaust pipe was original or had been swapped and they said it all looked normal.

It was a huge mistake to have gone through with the purchase and one that I've deeply regretted ever since. I'd never buy a car from a dealer that was over 100 miles from home and this is looking like it's the end of my days with Lexus.

Alan

Hi Alan. Have you got the car on the 'My Lexus' app. That should show all work carried out on the car especially if it belonged to Lexus. I know that due to the latest data protection laws the previous keeper no longer shows on V5c and that those details will not be in the service book(My car came with a fully stamped replacement.) I am sure that if it belonged to the importer they would confirm that. Have you googled the reg number. Interesting what that can bring back. If Lexus themselves used it. Was it a press loan car perhaps? 

What does the supplying dealer say about this issue as they sold you the car. 

My car I bought unseen based on description of condition which wasn't correct as the car hadn't been cosmetically prepared to Lexus standards and they had it back for 2 weeks for paintwork rectification. They collected and returned it with a round trip of about 250 miles... 

[stringbender]

3 hours ago, PCM said:

Have you had friends etc., drive the car to form an opinion?

I'd be escalating this to Lexus HO. 

12 months sounds far too long to get a resolution!

Thanks Piers,

Two friends and my wife have felt this problem. As usual the only people who can't detect it are the highly trained Lexus technicians.

Alan

[stringbender]

3 hours ago, m4rkw said:

Even at 12 months you still have rights, and if the car is under warranty all you need to do is prove the fault. I would do this:

1) Invest the relatively small amount of money it will cost for an independent toyota specialist to diagnose the problem for you.

2) Take their report to Lexus and demand satisfaction. Explain that you've been messed around for 12 months, you're really unhappy, and you've about had it with Lexus and will likely never buy anything from them ever again. And you'll try your damndest to make sure nobody you know does either. When presented with evidence of the fault I'm pretty sure they will back down, and you can then argue for compensation for the money you had to spend getting a diagnosis that Lexus themselves were apparently unable to provide. I doubt they'd reimburse you the actual money but you could ask them for some free servicing to compensate you for your loss and frustration.

Thanks Mark,

We're away up north next week so will try an independent when we get back. The whole issue has totally sunk me. I thought I was getting somewhere when Jenny offered to replace the silencer and rear tail pipe. Whoopee ! but then I realised she meant the final tiny silencer box and last bit of pipe. I've got a 24 hour test drive booked with Mitsubishi (PHEV) but the RX has so much more spec. The first  half hour  test drive in the PHEV was totally serene but I hardly got the engine to cut in. Yes, I am fussy, but I know this car is doing something that it shouldn't and I wish there was some way of measuring/ recording the vibration and deep low frequency rumbles. You'd think a brand like Lexus would want to investigate this to make sure that it was eliminated from the build process. I'd love to know what a main section of the exhaust and boombox silencer costs to actually make from scratch. But no, there are pennies to be saved and who cares if a customer of over 15 years isn't happy?

Alan

[stringbender]

3 hours ago, olliesgrandad said:

Hi Alan. Have you got the car on the 'My Lexus' app. That should show all work carried out on the car especially if it belonged to Lexus. I know that due to the latest data protection laws the previous keeper no longer shows on V5c and that those details will not be in the service book(My car came with a fully stamped replacement.) I am sure that if it belonged to the importer they would confirm that. Have you googled the reg number. Interesting what that can bring back. If Lexus themselves used it. Was it a press loan car perhaps? 

What does the supplying dealer say about this issue as they sold you the car. 

My car I bought unseen based on description of condition which wasn't correct as the car hadn't been cosmetically prepared to Lexus standards and they had it back for 2 weeks for paintwork rectification. They collected and returned it with a round trip of about 250 miles... 

Thanks Les. No, I'm not very appy so will have to look into that. How do I get it ? The supplying dealer is just glad that I live 100 miles away but I wouldn't want to go back there anyway. My reply to Mark is more up to date.

Alan

[m4rkw]

6 minutes ago, stringbender said:

Yes, I am fussy, but I know this car is doing something that it shouldn't and I wish there was some way of measuring/ recording the vibration and deep low frequency rumbles.

I don't think you're being overly fussy, I wouldn't put up with this on a new-ish car either. You're well within your rights to expect they resolve it.

However it is true that reproducing such issues can be difficult and if a tech can't reproduce a problem they can't do anything about it. Hopefully you can demonstrate it to an independent tech and get a diagnosis.

[olliesgrandad]

4 hours ago, stringbender said:

Thanks Les. No, I'm not very appy so will have to look into that. How do I get it ? The supplying dealer is just glad that I live 100 miles away but I wouldn't want to go back there anyway. My reply to Mark is more up to date.

Alan

It's in the Google app store. When you load it I recall it asks for certain details to verify the vehicle. It then shows everything ever done to the car by a Lexus dealership. The app is the one called 'My Lexus'. 

[stringbender]

Thanks Les. Interesting to note that the only Lexus stamp in the book is the one I put there at Cheltenham. The one Lexus out there was at British Car Auctions in Banbury. I checked and was told that Lexus dispose of all their head office cars this way. Still seems odd to me, all the fuss about getting the Lexus stamp in the book and yet they don't even do it themselves.

Alan 

[Madsod]

Hi Alan,

Not sure if this helps but...I had an RX400H prior to my current model which developed an issue with a low level rumble which ONLY happened around take off/ accelerating that was linked, I believe, to the vehicle switching from ICE to Battery mode.

Once the fault had developed a bit more, (dealer unable to find the fault on first two visits) I was able to recreate it on demand by accelerating and then dropping off the gas pedal slightly so the ICE stopped and Battery mode kicked in, by controlling the throttle, I could continue the rumbling noise for as long as I wanted. 

The dealer opened a case with Lexus UK but I never got a full solution as I traded up to my current model with them before I had a fix. Does that sound like your noise? Do you have a dashcam with voice recording capability that could ‘capture’ the noise to replay to the dealer? 

 

 

[stringbender]

Hi Kevin,

I wish I could replicate what's bugging me at will. The car has a mind of its own! I wouldn't describe mine as a noise though. The rumble is deep deep low frequency - probably measured in tens of hertz rather than hundreds of Hertz so it's felt more than heard. maybe the techs genuinely can't detect it and as it's not their car they just say it's not their problem. As I said before I wish there was some kind of frequency analyser which would enable me to at least prove that there is something horrible going on down below that is not there when the engine is cold but begins to show its face as things hot up.

Alan