ohhh... last again?

[Linas.P]

On 6/28/2019 at 2:27 PM, noby76 said:

They miss the target when they apply 'petrolhead values'  emphasise on a vehicle like ES300h which is not and isn't pretending to be a high performance car.. if one wants a lovely sounding 4 cylinder, a 4 cylindr diesel or 4 cylinder petrol revving less than 6500rpm wouldnt cut it anyway..  7000rpm and up that's when you talking.. so why apply these 'petrolhead values' emphasise on an ES300h when its far from one is beyond me..

Have you actually watched the Lexus advert which I have specifically quoted (advert created by "AI"). By the way - what AI did, it collated all successful adverts and their context and selected the criteria which worked best to advertise to potential buyers. That means - that not only Lexus uses "petrolhead values", but actually that "petrolhead values are widely acceptable and valued between car buyers."... at least based on "big data" analysis by AI.

@spacenase - I do not make assumptions about the person you are, I can only reply to what you have stated. You said that you don't like and not agree with the values of "top gear like" or car magazine reviews, because they focus on the values which you don't have or don't appreciate. Now if you say "actually there is a lot in common, except of speed and fast corners" you just changing your story now. Basically, you saying - I made wrong assumption about you, because what you said in previous comment, you didn't actually mean it?! I mean c'mon what you except then?

Vintage cars enthusiasts are slightly different topic. I am certainly one and I would love to have some space to actually restore vintage car. However, have you thought about how most of the vintage car became appreciated? To most extent compared to contemporaries they were fast, great sounding and better handling cars - exactly because of the petrolhead values. There are exception as always, but there are far far more fitting this description then not. Take even original Mini - it was outstanding car for performance and handling for it's day, on track able to go head to head with Mustang, it was extremely popular car as well so brings a lot of memories for many. RR, Bentley and XJs - maybe were not great handling car for today's standards, but they were reasonably handling for their time, however they always had massive lumps of an engine - 4, 5, 6.25 litres V8, V12s and for straight line performance only the best of the best sports cars could rival them. Probably until late 80's when "hot hatches" became a thing, again most of them are appreciated now because of performance on track and twisty road. Then there are exceptions like Beetle - terrible car overall, but was amazingly popular and probably brings a lot of memories back, same can be said about first Golfs nowadays (GTI obviously get there for different reason). Why there are Austin Allegro clubs is mystery for everyone including the club members - my guess car was so **** that everyone hated it so much and deliberately destroyed it where they can, that some even became sorry (for the car) and started collecting/protecting them. This is great considering the rarer the car is the more valuable it is and although Allegro was common car in it's time, so many have been deliberately destroyed because of hate that only handful remains. Originality, can as well be a factor, but that is very subjective.

In the end of day petrolhads are not idiots (most of the time) and that is why they don't race vintage cars in the "race fashion", there are obviously vintage cars rallies which works completely differently. That is because for today standards (in contrast with contemporary) they do not handle that well, far too valuable to crash and in case of crash they are not safe. But that does not negate main reason why they are collected - because of petrolhead values. I think you mention of classic cars is really relevant here, because it is almost possible to say whenever new car is suitable for petrolhead or not based on possibility of it becoming classic. Let's be clear here - none of the cars with Lexus 300h engine ever going to be classics. I am pretty certain my IS250 won't ever become classic either, but the point here is not what we own, but what is our view about it. So if you think that ES300h is the car for the person who cares and likes driving and is potentially car enthusiast, this theory says you are basically wrong. To be clear I specifically said ES300h, not GS300h, because I think GS is fine car except of being a bit slow for my taste in 300h guise, whereas ES is fundamentally flawed car.

Again we can go into detail about car handling and comfort, because I disagree with the way define it. Skoda being jerky is not handling and it being uncomfortable is not driving. What you saying is it so bad it doesn't even fit the most basic duties of stopping and starting in traffic - terrible car I would say. Comparing it with Lexus is little bit unfair, but I think it is clear to anyone that Lexus GS going to be much more comfortable then most of the cars. Now when you say how car absorbs the potholes could be part of handling - no... just no. Have you ever been going round corners at speed in very stiff rally or time attack car? Yes every-time there is ridge or pothole on the road you think your spine going to smash into pieces, but they grip.. grip.. grip. Yes there could be a point where car is too stiff and rebounds are wrongly adjusted and it could fly of the road due to hitting something and loosing grip, but that is different story. In short for handling - the stiffer the better (but it could go too far as anything).

I am reaching the point where I think you are so much non-petrolhead that we simply cannot bridge this understanding and view-point gap. That is not to say it is your fault - maybe I am far too much of petrolhead to the extreme end... For me this discussion start to look like the guy with supermarket plane model in 1:120 for £12.99 trying to explain modelling enthusiast in the modelling club the values of the modelling. Tries to justify why Tesco plane models still has to be considered as real models and why he is real plane modelling enthusiast, that is when the other guy just spent 7 years building his own model from scratch in 1:10 size from thin sheet aluminium or what not. That discussion is going into direction where the second guy just leaves the first one alone and thinks - "mate you have no clue of how deep the detail and the values goes, to the extent I am could not even care to explain".

[noby76]

Linas i did not even bother reading all above but you had to say but one thing i would like to say is, a true petrol head knows which cars are for petrol heads and which ones are not and they do not need AI data in order to distinguish the difference.. now i'm not the one to say i know all when it comes to cars... but i can defialtely tell you a Lexus ES300H does not "fall" in to the category of a petrol heads car for sure.. and if you are expecting it be you will be very disappointed... now this does not make it a bad car per say it just fits perfectly into a market segment lexus is targeting which it fits perfectly based on its attributes..

[spacenase]

@Linas.P I'm trying hard not to feel insulted after your last paragraph which basically sounds like you are patting me on my head and saying "Don't worry, let the adults talk about this.". That's what I mean about making assumptions about me. You explicitly say that you consider me a non-petrolhead, which I don't really want to respond to because I shouldn't care what someone who doesn't know me thinks about me, but I'm going to anyway so here's why I think you are wrong.

As far as I can see, I didn't change my story on the car reviews. I even said in my first post that some online reviews cover a much wider criteria than the ones I was referring too. In your response, you expanded the discussion to include petrolheads and car enthusiasts and I expanded my reply to cover that. Your last paragraph read as if you assume I am not a car enthusiast and that is what I am referring to. Your last paragraph in your latest post looks as if it backs up that view of me as I mentioned above.

I've looked up definitions for petrolhead online myself and, strangely, none of them mention speed or handling. They talk about people who are enthusiastic or obsessive about cars or motor sports. I see nothing in them that says you have to want the fastest, best handling car, that you have to want your car to be the best handling or fastest in its class, or even that you have to want to improve the handling or speed of your own car to be a petrolhead. You only have to have a love or obsession of cars, that's it. Your own evidence supports this, surely the largest group of car enthusiasts in the world has to be the owners of air-cooled VWs cars and vans and most of those have to be slowest, worst handling cars out there (apart from possibly the 2CV). You seem to dismiss large numbers of car enthusiasts and petrolheads because they don't fit your view of what they should be. I know that some enthusiasts strive to improve the speed and handling of their cars, but equally some enthusiasts strive to keep their cars as original as possible. Both are a subset of the group of car enthusiasts and neither are more or less valid than the other.

Once again, the point I am trying to make is that I think you are defining a sports car enthusiast or a sports car petrolhead, which is a subset of a much larger community. I have loved reading about, watching programmes about, researching, being driven in, driving and owning all sorts of different cars since I was a boy. Just because I'm not a fan of the same type of cars that you are, doesn't make me any less of a petrolhead or car enthusiast than you.

I don't disagree with all of your views and I was hoping that this was heading towards an interesting exchange of views on what makes a car enthusiast, but your assumptions of me and insults have taken any fun out of it. I therefore don't think I have any more to say on this so I'll stop there.

[dutchie01]

4 hours ago, noby76 said:

but i can defialtely tell you a Lexus ES300H does not "fall" in to the category of a petrol heads car for sure.. 

And neither does an IS250 ....

[Linas.P]

On 6/30/2019 at 7:16 PM, dutchie01 said:

And neither does an IS250 ....

and I explicitly said that

On 6/30/2019 at 2:02 PM, Linas.P said:

I am pretty certain my IS250 won't ever become classic either, but the point here is not what we own, but what is our view about it. So if you think that ES300h is the car for the person who cares and likes driving and is potentially car enthusiast, this theory says you are basically wrong.

@spacenase ... yes you are car enthusiast who does not care about "the driving" or "the handling". I hope you not feel insulted, because this is just another person online and just a discussion forum. Based on what you said above it is a stretch to call yourself car enthusiast (just my opinion obviously). My uncle is kind of similar - he eats chicken, but still considers himself a vegetarian. And when somebody goes "Darius... you not really rear vegetarian are you?!" ... he quickly claims "ohhh yes I am, it is only red meat which counts, not chicken!". So you trying to similarly stretch commonly agreed terms between car enthusiasts and say that actually, you don't even need to care about handling or that handling does not actually means what it means, it means "the way car absorbs potholes, drives in traffic and on straight busy motorway". That sounds like me on cycling forum - saying all bicycles should be banned from the roads or they should have insurance and cyclists at least basic mandatory training... but then claiming I am devoted cyclist. Why? Because I do actually own bicycle.... sure.

Should you care that Linas on internet says you are not car enthusiasts by even remote stretch of imagination... probably you shouldn't (I would not). Hope we could find more luck discussing other motoring related topics apart of "the driving aspect". 👍 

[Bluesman]

Please please let's all remain friends.  It's just not worth falling out over.

[Hadrian]

Not sure if this has been posted before ?  Which report on Lexus.

 

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/which-awards-2019-lexus/?fbclid=IwAR3jyR7qnuDQUAOWB_1c3arJO89mki-Un6sZMifUcxzntYaP0r2y4jnNRcI

[noby76]

2 hours ago, Hadrian said:

Not sure if this has been posted before ?  Which report on Lexus.

 

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/which-awards-2019-lexus/?fbclid=IwAR3jyR7qnuDQUAOWB_1c3arJO89mki-Un6sZMifUcxzntYaP0r2y4jnNRcI

Aint it funny how car magazine reviewers will tell you a BMW, Merc and Audi wins in tests, build quality and all driving aspects but then once the dust settles and real world owners are surveyed on these brands Lexus crops up the winner? not disputing the fact German cars are fine and in some aspects, very well built machines and certainly does tick boxes but results like these lets you see the biased contrast that's out there when you ask a car mag reviewer against an owner who has had to live with the car for a while..  not all Lexus cars are perfect but are close enough to always win majority owner surveys both here and in the US year on year...

[spacenase]

@Linas.P That’s fine, I can happily live my life not being your view of a car enthusiast. The views you express remind me of some friends that think you cannot be a music lover unless you only listen to certain types of music. Of course each one has a different list of music genres. I’m happy with a wider view of things even if it doesn’t match what others think, it won’t stop me expressing my views and offering a different perspective.

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, spacenase said:

@Linas.P That’s fine, I can happily live my life not being your view of a car enthusiast. The views you express remind me of some friends that think you cannot be a music lover unless you only listen to certain types of music. Of course each one has a different list of music genres. I’m happy with a wider view of things even if it doesn’t match what others think, it won’t stop me expressing my views and offering a different perspective.

 

Tom Paxton the American Folk singer, in his song "Talking Pop Art" said amongst other things, "I don`t know much about Art, but I know what I like"

I have followed these contributions from a distance with considerable knowledge and experience of motoring and have been mildly amused at some of the things that have been said.

My conclusion remains what it was at the beginning "I don`t know much about Motoring,  but I know what I like!

Here endeth the lesson.

[Linas.P]

On 7/2/2019 at 8:31 AM, Hadrian said:

Not sure if this has been posted before ?  Which report on Lexus.

https://blog.lexus.co.uk/which-awards-2019-lexus/?fbclid=IwAR3jyR7qnuDQUAOWB_1c3arJO89mki-Un6sZMifUcxzntYaP0r2y4jnNRcI

That has been posted several times and I happily quote it - Lexus dealerships (as much they are not perfect) are still one of the best in terms of customer service, servicing costs are low, cars are reliable, so from practical ownership experience I completely agree - Lexus gives best impression. If one ever goes to dealership most of the time it will be just fluids changes and no unexpected bills. However, that is not to say it somehow makes ES less worse from the driving perspective, or any 300h less sluggish.

What ones needs to understand is what comes in mind when filling such surveys - they ask ask questions about reliability, customer service etc. and nobody can deny Lexus does well in these departments. However, if survey would be about driving thrill, dynamics or experience Lexus would be nowhere to be found on the list.

That is pretty much what I have said many times - if Lexus wants to advertise themselves as reliable and luxurious, that is fine they certainly deserve top places. However, if they advertising themselves as cars for younger people, fast and sporty, giving some sort of thrills behind the wheel... then sorry it is lie! And then Lexus deserves criticism for advertising their products in worn light and in the way they are not performing. That is what I am doing here and with this thread - if they try to sell me smaller car and pretend it is comparable with 5-Series where it clearly isn't or that it is dynamic and with FWD which it isn't - then I will call it lie.

[dutchie01]

You sound like a broken record Linas, i guess everybody on this forum does know your point of view by now..

[Linas.P]

yes you are right, however people keep raising same points - meaning they will get same monotonic response. When people going to stop saying 300h is fast enough I am going to stop saying my part of the same script.

[spacenase]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

yes you are right, however people keep raising same points - meaning they will get same monotonic response. When people going to stop saying 300h is fast enough I am going to stop saying my part of the same script.

I'm soooo tempted... 😋

 

[NemesisUK]

20 minutes ago, spacenase said:

I'm soooo tempted... 😋

 

I can't resist ...

The RC300h is fast enough, more than fast enough to loose one's license 

There I've said it and I'm proud to be a 300h driver.. 

[Bluesman]

It's going nowhere except for bad feelings.