ohhh... last again?

Sloth · June 6, 2019

I had until last month a Mercedes C300h AMG Line (RWD).

It practically gave me piles on bumpy roads.

It handled like a baby Giraffe (or a pig on stilts) in the wet and like Torvill & Dean in snow/ice.

I want my car to be comfortable and easy to drive not a challenge.

I want to keep my licence.

I want to live.

I want my loved ones and passengers to live.

I'm not a professional racing/test driver and unlike some I know it!

People watch too much Top Gear or the likes and sadly (emphasis on Sad) seem to think that it in some way represents the real world or real world driving.

I'm not a man-child so am happy with a grown up car...for grown ups.

My car is a mode of transportation to be as safe, comfortable and easy as possible, if I want thrills I have many other options probably not available to a man-child or other sad persons who think that Top Gear is real.

I appreciate quality and good styling

For all the above reasons I'm looking forward to receiving my new FWD Lexus ES300h F Sport 'Takumi' pack.

Thank you.

Linas.P · June 6, 2019

.... no you are Sloth... explains it.

dutchie01 · June 6, 2019

My dear Linas why do you like to insult people? Why cant you respect fellow clubmembers that have a different opinion than yours?

Linas.P · June 6, 2019

Not sure what you mean... calling the clubmember by his(?) nickname is insulting now? am I missing something?

spacenase · June 6, 2019

@Linas.P However hard I try, I can't find the "disgusting, under-powered... hybrid" in my GS300h that you talked about. Instead I find a car that's more than capable of keeping up with the traffic in the fast lane of the motorway, and pulls hard when you floor it until you're well over the national speed limit before you know it. If anything I'd call it deceptive, it doesn't pull you back in your seat like some cars do, it just accelerates smoothly until you ease off. The fact that it doesn't drive the way you want it to doesn't make it a bad car, it just makes it not the right car for you.

Feel free to insult me, my car or my choices like you have others, you don't know me and probably never will so I don't really care. Just know that here is someone who has loved cars and driving all my life, driven many different makes and models (including a couple of Lexus V8s) and is extremely happy with his Lexus hybrid.

Sloth · June 6, 2019

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

.... no you are Sloth... explains it.

There you see? The 'Sloth' is just a made up identity for forum purposes.

Its not real...

Just like Top Gear...

or the made up achievements of people who watch it and then flock like sheep to the Turdburg ring or whatever it's called?

Ive owned and driven some very fast cars and bikes.

Police cars...and...

I've done 155mph two up on an 1100cc super bike...

I was young and stupid and definatly not clever.

No, Sloth by name but not by nature, not really...just grown up 😉

Linas.P · June 6, 2019

I don't understand why everyone is so keen to prove to me it is "sufficient, capable enough". What is "enough", who defines "enough"? That is your subjective opinion at the best of time, which means there are many people who will disagree with you... I just happened to be one of them.

Keeping up with the traffic... what that even means?!. basically, any car capable of reaching 70MPH at all could "keep-up" with traffic. Is that now qualifies as "more than capable"? Some statements here are "anti-progress"... sounds like some sort of Amish cult. Let's all disconnect the electricity and get horses - they are "more than capable" to transport humans. Or even better - let's walk... most of us are "more than capable" to walk.

What about being competitive, cutting-edge, faster than most.. perhaps even unmatched? Why you only want to apply the terms which puts emphasis mediocracy instead of meritocracy of 300h experience?

And what is this with all "insult me if you like"... snowflakes... if somebody disagrees with your opinion and challenges you to justify, it is not an insult. It is (sometimes) constructive argument. From when it became a norm just to simply agree with everyone.. just in case they can get offended by not having everything their way.

Sloth · June 6, 2019

But hey, I get the humour Linus, the irony in the name or perhaps the appropriateness.

None taken 👍

Sloth · June 6, 2019

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

.... no you are Sloth... explains it.

Actually it was quiet funny....kind of on a plate really 😅

Linas.P · June 6, 2019

17 minutes ago, Sloth said:

Its not real...

Just like Top Gear...

real irony is that (not real) Top Gear actually have perfect summary, which matches 100% with your self reflection - ES300h might actually be the perfect car for you:

"A saloon car for people who don’t really care about/enjoy driving <...> Lexus may have found a gap in the market. Just not one that’s ever going to interest the enthusiast."

I want my car to be comfortable and easy to drive not a challenge. - says somebody who doesn't care about driving dynamics

I want to keep my licence. - say somebody who could not be bothered to concentrate on the road, signs and perhaps avoid speed cameras

I want to live. - say somebody not confident of car capabilities, or has a car which is outright not capable

I want my loved ones and passengers to live. - says everyone

I'm not a professional racing/test driver and unlike some I know it! - says person who doesn't like to drive nor enjoys it.

PS... there are no such thing as MB C300h... just saying - enthusiast would be ashamed.

PPS.. I didn't mean to insult, just found the nickname to be good match with to the post

spacenase · June 6, 2019

39 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

And what is this with all "insult me if you like"... snowflakes... if somebody disagrees with your opinion and challenges you to justify, it is not an insult. It is (sometimes) constructive argument. From when it became a norm just to simply agree with everyone.. just in case they can get offended by not having everything their way.

Thanks for accepting the invite to insult me.

I disagree with your opinion and justified why. I'm not asking you to agree with me, I don't care, I'm just offering a different perspective and I'm being someone who looks for a different type of car to you and still enjoys driving the car I've chosen. I care enough to respond because you keep insulting other people's choices and I don't consider that to be fair.

56 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Keeping up with the traffic... what that even means?!. basically, any car capable of reaching 70MPH at all could "keep-up" with traffic. Is that now qualifies as "more than capable"? Some statements here are "anti-progress"... sounds like some sort of Amish cult. Let's all disconnect the electricity and get horses - they are "more than capable" to transport humans. Or even better - let's walk... most of us are "more than capable" to walk.

I think you're missing my point, apologies if I wasn't clear. A car needs a certain amount of power to be able to join the outside lane and accelerate to the same speed as everyone else without slowing the entire lane down. My 300h is more than capable of doing that. No Amish cult or horses required.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

What about being competitive, cutting-edge, faster than most.. perhaps even unmatched? Why you only want to apply the terms which puts emphasis mediocracy instead of meritocracy of 300h experience?

Being cutting edge or competitive is not just about being faster. Progress is not just about being faster. What is cutting edge or competitive or progressive is very subjective because it's based on what an individual wants and not everyone wants a car that's faster. Again, that doesn't mean that they don't care about driving dynamics or are a bad driver, it just means they want something different in their car. Some of the cars that have been considered a great driver's car were not that fast (the original Mini is a prime example).

However, I will admit that there is nothing unique about the GS300h, the hybrid engine has been done elsewhere, there are other well made, well equipped saloon cars out there, there are other cars which are faster and cheaper, there are other cars that are more expensive and slower and there are other cars which are as or more reliable. For me it just brings these things together in a car that works very well for me and I enjoy driving it. I don't know how else to express a personal opinion that differs from yours.

Linas.P · June 6, 2019

7 minutes ago, spacenase said:

Being cutting edge or competitive is not just about being faster.

I was about to ask you - so what is and where exactly GS 300h excels, but you kind of summarised it well yourself

7 minutes ago, spacenase said:

However, I will admit that there is nothing unique about the GS300h, the hybrid engine has been done elsewhere, there are other well made, well equipped saloon cars out there, there are other cars which are faster and cheaper, there are other cars that are more expensive and slower and there are other cars which are as or more reliable. For me it just brings these things together in a car that works very well for me and I enjoy driving it. I don't know how else to express a personal opinion that differs from yours.

I am happy with above... except maybe "more expensive and slower" doesn't really exists, but in other hand Lexus probably is the most reliable.

Few things to note here:

1. Argument here is about ES, not GS which apart of being slow car in my opinion it is fine.

2. It is not that 300h is very bad in itself - that is not my problem. My problem is that there are no other choice ...

If Lexus would drop IS, GS and RC with 200h, 300h, 400h, 500h each, I would be dead quiet - "Here you are consumer you have a choice, now it is your matter of choosing what you need - no Bi****ing". However, if they chosen to give only 1 choice then that choice must be more competitive then it is now.

Finally, that opinion based on the retail price - RC300h (or say ES) cost £40k... that is bad value for money and not even an "upgrade" for IS250. However, if tomorrow I am going to find one for £15k sold on autotrader I would buy it and would be happy with it "considering what I have spent on it".

Sloth · June 7, 2019

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

real irony is that (not real) Top Gear actually have perfect summary, which matches 100% with your self reflection - ES300h might actually be the perfect car for you:

"A saloon car for people who don’t really care about/enjoy driving <...> Lexus may have found a gap in the market. Just not one that’s ever going to interest the enthusiast."

I want my car to be comfortable and easy to drive not a challenge. - says somebody who doesn't care about driving dynamics

I want to keep my licence. - say somebody who could not be bothered to concentrate on the road, signs and perhaps avoid speed cameras

I want to live. - say somebody not confident of car capabilities, or has a car which is outright not capable

I want my loved ones and passengers to live. - says everyone

I'm not a professional racing/test driver and unlike some I know it! - says person who doesn't like to drive nor enjoys it.

PS... there are no such thing as MB C300h... just saying - enthusiast would be ashamed.

PPS.. I didn't mean to insult, just found the nickname to be good match with to the post

You see you are now being insulting by refuting my abilities and personality.

I do care about and enjoy driving but it's not about speed or getting there quickly but rather a comfortable ride with easy driving experience. Perhaps we should agree that we all have different interpretations of what is enjoyable. Yours works for you then fine, mine works for me. When you pay for my car I will subscribe to your criteria.

It's not a matter of being bothered but I again refer you to the relaxing and comfortable drive, un-stressed. If you're idea of enjoying a drive is to be constantly on edge and scanning for speed cameras then that's your call. It is perfectly possible to drive at licence losing speeds in the ES300h.

I am perfectly confident of my driving skill and always make a point of getting to know my car. I would pit my capabilities against yours any day (if I could be bothered of course) as many years as a motorway police driver and also as a younger biker and fast car enthusiast have equipped me well. I just grew up, I recommend it heartily.

You also want your loved ones and passengers to live....just not as much as behaving like an immature idiot fantasising about being a racing driver....your call. Do you not want to arrive home safe for them? Are you so arrogant to think, like all the idiots driving like maniacs that your driving skills are advanced enough to cope with anything?

There is such a thing as a MB C300h or should I say there was as it was fairly recently discontinued. It was a 201hp 2.1 turbo diesel hybrid (Approx. 230 BHP total) I drove one for 3 years from May 2013-16. Check your facts. An enthusiast would be ashamed.

No probs with the nick name, a bit of banter is fine. You have however made derogatory comments about my driving ability and personality.

Don't make this personal my friend, you don't know me well enough to judge me nor i you so let's just agree to disagree.

It all boils down to the reason/s you buy a car. Speed/excitement or comfort/reliability? My reasons are not yours and visa/versa.

spacenase · June 7, 2019

8 hours ago, Linas.P said:

except maybe "more expensive and slower" doesn't really exists

Lexus NX300h? :wink3:

dutchie01 · June 7, 2019

55 minutes ago, spacenase said:

Lexus NX300h?

IS250? :yahoo:

Linas.P · June 7, 2019

3 hours ago, spacenase said:

Lexus NX300h?

1. It is SUV - apples to oranges comparison. 2. It is not more expensive - RX200t is what you meant (0-60 of 9.2s). However, I am talking about comparable car to GS/ES i.e. saloons.

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

IS250?

You know it is factually untrue (and I am sure you just trying to wind me up), even on paper IS250 does it 8.4s and GS300h/ES300h in 9.2s. I am not even talking about the fact IS250 is 1/5th of the price and 8-13 years older model (so clearly not more expensive).

4 hours ago, Sloth said:

It was a 201hp 2.1 turbo diesel hybrid (Approx. 230 BHP total) I drove one for 3 years from May 2013-16. Check your facts. An enthusiast would be ashamed.

There are 2 MB hybrids - diesel "de" and petrol "e", so your car was called C300de, not h. That is spiting hairs I know... but such blatant ignorance for nomenclature is what enthusiast would be ashamed of - same as calling Lexus IS-F a Lexus IS500 (that does happen as well). MB as well claims it has combined 302HP and 700NM, 5.7s 0-60 is as well quite an achievement, with overall better fuel economy and pure electric range. Very good car you had in the past.

4 hours ago, Sloth said:

You have however made derogatory comments about my driving ability and personality.

Don't make this personal my friend, you don't know me well enough to judge me nor i you so let's just agree to disagree.

But you do realised you did the same right? Sometimes directly and sometimes implied?!

It is not that I am really offended by it, but at the same what stops me to reply with the same?

Just to be absolutely clear what I mean e.g. by saying that you care about your family safety you imply that I don't, or by saying that you not boy racer that I am boy racer. Or that you are too mature to drive "fast", you basically saying that anyone who does are immature. Call it "tone response", but if we distil you statement to the basics you basically saying that comfort/reliability is "mature" choice and speed/excitement is "immature". That can be considered offensive statement? no?

Finally, driving slow is not necessary safer. What is dangerous is not understanding where it is suitable to go fast and where it is not. 300h would be outright dangerous car for me to drive and I am not even making fun of this - it is so boring to drive, that I would be at risk of falling a sleep on longer drive. As we know factually more people die and kill from falling asleep, then from speed related crashes. So I am not even sure your family care is statistically correct.

Linas.P · June 7, 2019

24 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

4 hours ago, Sloth said:

There is such a thing as a MB C300h or should I say there was as it was fairly recently discontinued. It was a 201hp 2.1 turbo diesel hybrid (Approx. 230 BHP total) I drove one for 3 years from May 2013-16. Check your facts. An enthusiast would be ashamed.

There are 2 MB hybrids - diesel "de" and petrol "e", so your car was called C300de, not h. That is spiting hairs I know... but such blatant ignorance for nomenclature is what enthusiast would be ashamed of - same as calling Lexus IS-F a Lexus IS500 (that does happen as well). MB as well claims it has combined 302HP and 700NM, 5.7s 0-60 is as well quite an achievement, with overall better fuel economy and pure electric range. Very good car you had in the past.

It is quite embarrassing, but yes you right - there is actually such thing as C300h and it is 201hp, 6.4s 0-60 diesel non-plug-in hybrid (still sounds miles better than ES300h). However, both before and after it the cars were called "de" - bloody confusing MB nomenclature.

I take this back - sorry.

PS. I could have edited this gaffe out, but I never been about hiding the instances where I am genuinely wrong.

Sloth · June 7, 2019

31 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It is quite embarrassing, but yes you right - there is actually such thing as C300h and it is 201hp, 6.4s 0-60 diesel non-plug-in hybrid (still sounds miles better than ES300h). However, both before and after it the cars were called "de" - bloody confusing MB nomenclature.

I take this back - sorry.

PS. I could have edited this gaffe out, but I never been about hiding the instances where I am genuinely wrong.

OK that's fine, easy mistake to make with the recent changes to that range in MB.

Yes a nice car but sadly no longer available in that form and no longer in budget either.

I was perfectly un-offended until you made your comments about being too lazy or unskilled etc........you made assumptions which LED to my making some also.

This needs to end, it's a car forum not a summit on ending world poverty, shouldn't be that emotive.

Points have been made and I'm now 'out' as they say.

Habu · June 7, 2019

I’m with you too, Sloth. I’m off as the guy made his points weeks ago but continues with the bombardment of the model. It’s fine to have an opinion - everyone has different reasons to have a certain model - but the constant negative threads on the model isn’t big or clever. The forum is meant to be a friendly open site with some banter but it’s turning personal.

Where are the moderators? Irrelevant to me anyway now as I’m off. I’ll enjoy my ES in private.

Linas.P · June 7, 2019

I agree - it should be friendly (or respectful), but not necessary positive. On other hand it is not that surprising when people get offended by their car being reviewed negatively, but this is "offence taken".

Unless you saying I can only post what is positive, in which case the argument is biased and there is no point even discussing anything then. Conclusion would always be that Lexus only makes PERFECT cars.

spacenase · June 7, 2019

10 hours ago, Linas.P said:

1. It is SUV - apples to oranges comparison. 2. It is not more expensive - RX200t is what you meant (0-60 of 9.2s). However, I am talking about comparable car to GS/ES i.e. saloons.

I wasn't talking about a comparable car, my comment was just that there are more expensive cars out there that are slower and there are. Model for model, the NX is more expensive than the ES apart from the Takumi, so we're both right on that one!

Linas.P · June 7, 2019

9 minutes ago, spacenase said:

I wasn't talking about a comparable car, my comment was just that there are more expensive cars out there that are slower and there are. Model for model, the NX is more expensive than the ES apart from the Takumi, so we're both right on that one!

That is why I always try to keep it comparable - we can say Volvo FH16 is certainly much more expensive and slower than any Lexus, but it is a truck. Not really a relevant comparison. SUVs will always be slower and more expensive than saloons, so again there is no relevance in comparing them.

As well based on your previous post you were talking about GS and GS is more expensive than NX for every trim level, I have noticed ES is just few £100 cheaper trim for trim.

... anyway... back to what I was saying - back in the day when GS existed as a model, there was great great car called GS450h, as such I don't even have an issue with GS300h existence -in the end is a choice of a buyer. I would not get one unless it is deal as good as a steal, but for Lexus credit they gave an option there. If RC450h existed I would be over the moon, that is even better than RC350.

spacenase · June 8, 2019

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

That is why I always try to keep it comparable - we can say Volvo FH16 is certainly much more expensive and slower than any Lexus, but it is a truck. Not really a relevant comparison. SUVs will always be slower and more expensive than saloons, so again there is no relevance in comparing them.

As well based on your previous post you were talking about GS and GS is more expensive than NX for every trim level, I have noticed ES is just few £100 cheaper trim for trim.

... anyway... back to what I was saying - back in the day when GS existed as a model, there was great great car called GS450h, as such I don't even have an issue with GS300h existence -in the end is a choice of a buyer. I would not get one unless it is deal as good as a steal, but for Lexus credit they gave an option there. If RC450h existed I would be over the moon, that is even better than RC350.

Obviously a truck is no comparison to a car, but my original comment wasn't talking about trucks it was clearly talking about cars. SUVs are sold alongside saloons, hatchbacks, coupes, estates, MPVs and convertibles in the same showrooms to the same range of customers, so they are very comparable. These days the SUV is just another car body type. Again, it was just a very generalised comment and it's true.

I admit to cheating a bit with the NX/ES cost comparison, but I liked the irony of it.

If I was into sports coupes, an RC450h would sound very interesting if it didn't feel like it was too heavy when driving it.

Linas.P · June 8, 2019

17 minutes ago, spacenase said:

Again, it was just a very generalised comment and it's true.

If I was into sports coupes, an RC450h would sound very interesting if it didn't feel like it was too heavy when driving it.

Yes... but like for like SUV always going to be slower and more expensive than saloons, so comparing them defeats the point. Secondly, SUV focus on different values from other cars. They only in the same market from perspective that they are considered "light vehicles" under 3500kg and can be driven with Cat. B. License. What is true however, is that SUV plague has decimated "traditional" car sales, basically anyone who would have been buying 4 door family saloon 20 years ago nowadays buys SUV. I hate it, but nothing can be done about it... not all popular things are good.

It would not be that much heavier than 300h. I mean how much heavier is GS450h from 300h? 80kg? that is like extra passenger. RC is more GT than nimble sports coupe anyway.