ohhh... last again?

Linas.P · May 25, 2019

...and don't you start me with your shenanigans that the press is "biased against Lexus"... all is very objective (cannot fault any of the comments at all), by any measurable way it is worst car of the 4 and that is because it is outclassed. Lexus put this car in wrong category, it took away it chances of being good... Is not that much of the issue with the car as much as it is an issue of it being placed deliberately by Lexus in the wrong place at the wrong time. Enjoy..

Zotto · May 25, 2019

😴😴😴😴😴

fetchez la vache · May 25, 2019

Chap, I don’t think you should buy an ES, it’s clealry not the right car for you! I’m a big fan of carwow reviews, they are always worth a watch. Just one overlooked metric, The German cars are roughly £1500-£2000 a year more in tax for a company car driver. That a fair chunk of change over 4 years.

royoftherovers · May 25, 2019

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

...and don't you start me with your shenanigans that the press is "biased against Lexus"... all is very objective (cannot fault any of the comments at all), by any measurable way it is worst car of the 4 and that is because it is outclassed. Lexus put this car in wrong category, it took away it chances of being good... Is not that much of the issue with the car as much as it is an issue of it being placed deliberately by Lexus in the wrong place at the wrong time. Enjoy..

So, where do you think it should have been classed by Lexus?

noby76 · May 25, 2019

funny how the decision was pretty much already made based on how the cars had been arranged within a few seconds into the video... the German cars were all noisy 2 litre 4 cylinder Diesel engines but yet still he claims the 2.5 petrol 4 cylinder in the Lexus is NOISIER under acceleration ...since when is Diesel engine quieter than petrol engine counterpart??

i mean the engine alone in the ES makes 180bhp 220 NM torque without the Battery both combined is 215bhp but yet still he claims its slow under moving acceleration.. weird how he makes it sound as if the Lexus is a 50 bhp car.. regardless of how one looks at it 215 bhp will deliver acceptable performance for daily driving most people not used to very high performance cars will need.. considering this performance figure would have been found in 6 cylinder 2.5 to 3 litre cars 5 to 10 years ago which is not that long...

someone in the know can tell the 0 to 60 times and top end times in the ES has been purposely detuned to achieve good MPG, lower road tax and lower car insurance...

gdh300 · May 25, 2019

Linas, you must be very happy! Rejoice!

Linas.P · May 25, 2019

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

So, where do you think it should have been classed by Lexus?

BMW 4-Series Grand Coupe, WV Arteon, MB CLA... that sort of niche intermediate car between 3-series and 5-series.... Literally, where it is in full Lexus range - between ES and GS. NOT AS REPLACEMENT FOR GS - they should have this on the visors!

1 hour ago, noby76 said:

(1). the German cars were all noisy 2 litre 4 cylinder Diesel engines but yet still he claims the 2.5 petrol 4 cylinder in the Lexus is NOISIER under acceleration ...since when is Diesel engine quieter than petrol engine counterpart??

(2) i mean the engine alone in the ES makes 180bhp 220 NM torque without the battery both combined is 215bhp but yet still he claims its slow under moving acceleration.. weird how he makes it sound as if the Lexus is a 50 bhp car..

(3) regardless of how one looks at it 215 bhp will deliver acceptable performance for daily driving most people not used to very high performance cars will need..

(4) considering this performance figure would have been found in 6 cylinder 2.5 to 3 litre cars 5 to 10 years ago which is not that long...

1. that is not true. The diesels are noisier only if you standing outside of the idling car, maybe when you get in to the car on early morning... But when it comes to sitting in the cabin you cannot actually hear diesel engine noise in new German cars and past 30MPH wind and road noise just masks it anyway. When you actually step on the gas modern diesel found in BMW, MB (haven't tried Audi) are certainly quieter then 300h, which (I have stated times and times again) sounds trashy under acceleration.

2. Although, Lexus claims that combined power is "comparable" to 215hp petrol car is simply not true. 300h is 175hp car, the way it feels and drives is like 175hp car and whereas hybrid system helps economy and somewhat performance it is not 175hp+40hp. Anyone who have driven modern 2l diesel (~240hp) and 300h will know the difference between the two. I hate diesel, but it is bloody day and night in terms of performance.

3. who is talking about "acceptable" performance here? For each person acceptable or not is going to be different... he is simply comparing what he has and that is most objective way - Lexus is slowest in any circumstances out of 4.

4. True! The performance in ES (or any other 300h) feels like it would have been acceptable 10-15 years ago... not nowadays! I mean I am surprised how some people call that acceptable - 10 years ago "not that long"... what?!

Other points he makes are dead accurate:

- ES is less comfortable than other cars in comparison 100% right, because it is outclassed. It would wipe the flours with CLA, but not with full size E-class.

- ES discourages you from driving fast - 100% right (same for any other 300h), I was saying that all along, they don't like to be pushed, they feel not great if you do.

- ES is not practical car, not sure if it really matters, but it just isn't

- Lexus infotainment is god awful.. this is nothing new.

Linas.P · May 25, 2019

3 hours ago, fetchez la vache said:

Chap, I don’t think you should buy an ES, it’s clealry not the right car for you! I’m a big fan of carwow reviews, they are always worth a watch. Just one overlooked metric, The German cars are roughly £1500-£2000 a year more in tax for a company car driver. That a fair chunk of change over 4 years.

What about BMW 530e? I am sure it is £2000 cheaper for company car driver... Certainly, I would not get diesel myself... Secondly, I am sure the deal you woudl get buying Lexus will always going to be much less attractive because of being "unique option". So whereas you right - the tax on hybrid is going to be lower, the overall cost of ownership is likely to be higher.

noby76 · May 25, 2019

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

1. that is not true. The diesels are noisier only if you standing outside of the idling car, maybe when you get in to the car on early morning... But when it comes to sitting in the cabin you cannot actually hear diesel engine noise in new German cars and past 30MPH wind and road noise just masks it anyway. When you actually step on the gas modern diesel found in BMW, MB (haven't tried Audi) are certainly quieter then 300h, which (I have stated times and times again) sounds trashy under acceleration.

this is a subjective claim as it wasn't my experience in some modern BMW, Audis and Mercs taxis i have rode in.. so we cannot go by your claim but what we can all go by is a petrol engine produces lesser vibration and thus more quieter than a similar diesel engine.. no one is disagreeing the advance tech which has closed the noise gap between the two but petrol wins.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

2. Although, Lexus claims that combined power is "comparable" to 215hp petrol car is simply not true. 300h is 175hp car, the way it feels and drives is like 175hp car and whereas hybrid system helps economy and somewhat performance it is not 175hp+40hp. Anyone who have driven modern 2l diesel (~240hp) and 300h will know the difference between the two. I hate diesel, but it is bloody day and night in terms of performance.

how can this not be true? what will Lexus gain by over estimating the ES's bhp figure? of course a diesel with 240 bhp will perform better but a diesel with 215bhp not so much.. we all know diesels produce ample torque at lower rpm which gives that quick feeling but then drops off as rpm climbs where as NA petrol comes alive at higher rpm this is just engine characteristics.

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

3. who is talking about "acceptable" performance here? For each person acceptable or not is going to be different... he is simply comparing what he has and that is most objective way - Lexus is slowest in any circumstances out of 4.

4. True! The performance in ES (or any other 300h) feels like it would have been acceptable 10-15 years ago... not nowadays! I mean I am surprised how some people call that acceptable - 10 years ago "not that long"... what?!

this is all subjective as your point made on 3 was his point of view. i think a lot of people confuse initial torque delivery of diesels to mean quicker lets not forget a petrol's power delivery is very linear more so in a Lexus where you dont feel the sensation of speed until you look on the speedometer. until in gear acceleration has been tested between all four cars then we wouldn't for sure know how slow the Lexus actually is. as i said initial torque surge in diesels could give a false feeling of speed.

your point made on 4 is a bit off.. why is 215 bhp not acceptable in 2019? 10 -15 years ago there were cars on the road running 300, 400 and 500 bhp's but yet still 215bhp could be found in 2.5 to 3 litre 6 cylinder premium cars. if 215 bhp were acceptable in 6 cylinder cars then even though those same manufactures had other models pushing higher horse numbers why is it not acceptable now? by whos standards is 215bhp not acceptable as again its a subjective claim based on the individual and the type of performance they are or have been used to..

Linas.P · May 26, 2019

@noby76 as I said - in the cold morning even new BMW diesel sounds like a tractor. That is literally once you get in and drive off the driveway, after that road noise just completely masks it past 20-30mph. I am specifically talking here about 320d, but I am sure 520d is even better insulated. When you actually push-it BMW 2l diesel sounds better than Lexus 300h in my experience. 300h is only smooth whilst you cruising along, it doesn't like to be pushed and when pushed it really sounds bad, much worse than diesels.

Lexus 300h does not make 215hp, never made it and Lexus never said it does. What they say is that it is "comparable" to that figure... and what their "comparable" means is just anyone's guess. I have driven many 300h cars, at least 3 IS'es, RC and ES... and they "feel" under any normal circumstances like well sub-200hp cars, I would guess 150-160hp, but if somebody would say 175hp ... I would believe that. Certainly, they drive nothing like 215hp car, engine feels much weaker than one in IS250 which is 204hp... and when launched they not even smooth or lineal. Fair enough - perhaps Lexus power delivery makes it feel slower than it is... but 300h is certainly slower than 2l diesel.

Why anything which was acceptable in 2006 would be acceptable in 2019? Would you accept the same terrible 13 years old sat-nav, or terrible pixelated rear view camera, would you accept audio system which does not support BT, USB and digital radio? Would you accept 28MPG? NO nobody would accept that - what was acceptable 10-15 years ago is unacceptable now. Because if that would be the case, then 10-15 years ago somebody would have said "well in 90s it was acceptable that car had 130hp and did 0-60 in 13s"... and then somebody in 90s would have said that "back in 60s 40hp was acceptable and car couldn't even reach 60 MPH" and nowadays we would still drive Cortinas and Minors... that is called progress you know?!

It is acceptable for 13 years old cars, fair enough because you pay £2000 for them and thus you accept that performance and technology will be 13 years outdated, but if somebody would ask "new car" price for it that is not acceptable.. obvious really...

And I am not saying 215hp is not acceptable, I am saying that overall performance and the way it is delivered is unacceptable. Or lets say I this way - everyone will decide what is acceptable for them, but being objective in the same segment for the same price you can get more luxurious cars, better equipped, more practical and performing better. The only real advantage of the Lexus here is that it will be reliable 10 years and 100k miles later, BUT this is irrelevant for new car buyer or this review... after 3 years and 50k miles nobody cares anymore.

fetchez la vache · May 26, 2019

On the question of performance, I think you got to be honest and says straight away, all these cars are going to be rubbish. Large, heavy cars, powered by circa 200 bhp diesel or petrol electric engines are never going to set the world alight. There is no joy in pinning the loud pedal on any of these cars. To say one is better than another is like saying it’s better to be poisoned rather than jumping off a cliff.

The same can be said of handling, S line, M sport, Amg line and F Sport are all totally marketing BS. Put any of these in an actual environment where their performance and handling is laid bare ie a race track and see just how awful these cars actually are.

But that’s fine, we understand that a 520d msport is not designed to be the greatest performance car BMW has ever made (and as I’ve spent a lot of time over the years driving an E46 M3 CSL in every environment I.e road, track, autobahn, Austrian pass etc. That car is arguably the greatest performance car BMW has ever made, so ive got a reference point here).

these cars will be used on the congested highways and byways, usually at times when the highways and byways are at their most congested. The hybrid powertrain really shines in this environment. It is at its quietest and most efficient in traffic. That’s what it is designed for. Fun fact, in stop start traffic you can actually drive the ES in total silence just from the steering wheel using radar cruise. The hybrid It’s a massively relaxing place to be and it needs to be as your going to be in it for 8-10 hours and 300-400 miles per day.

In the real world, hybrid beats stop/start diesel power. It’s a compromise sure (and soon to be outdated itself), but it’s better.

To reference back to the review, let’s think about each choice. The Audi is no doubt a superb car, but having owned an A6 from the emissions scandal period, I’m done with VAG cars. In the same way UK customers can whistle for their compensation my £40k every 3-4 years walks straight out of their showroom.

The E class, again, a superb car. 2 big issues. The interior. You might as well walk into the showroom and ask to ‘bling me’. And I’m sorry to say but the other issue is the whole taxi thing.

So the BMW. Let’s put it out there, it won this test as overall it’s the best car. It just is and in pretty much every metric the ES will fall short in comparison. the carwow review did hint to the ES’s appeal when it mentioned the black tie analogy. The BMW is the sharpest cut, best fitting tuxedo. You will look a million dollars. Problem is, so will everybody else as they are all wearing the same thing. It’s it nice to turn up at the ball in a white tux and a massive smile on your face.

But to pull off the ‘being different trick’ the ES has to be close enough to the competition. It cannot be a total disaster as then you are just cutting off your nose to spite your face. The ES manages to be close enough, while maintaining its quirky appeal (and to my eyes, looking the best of the bunch).

First_Lexus · May 26, 2019

I thought the review was quite balanced. As has been pointed out, good though the ES may be (I've looked but not driven) it doesn't strike me as a GS replacement, and a GS would have been a more natural competitor in this test imho if it were still available.

As I've said before on the forum, I get a chance to drive and be a passenger in quite a wide range of cars. From my perspective;

- Audi make the nicest interiors, but their diesel engines are quite noisy even in the A6. Family experience of A6 reliability is dreadful too, even within the first three years. Audi have an image problem from where I'm sat, and the current range is ugly to my eyes. Fine if you like that sort of thing, but I don't!

As an aside, the new VAG TFSi engines seem very impressive being quiet, refined and powerful (in an A3 context).

- Personally I like the way the Mercedes looks and I prefer the interior to the Audi. C-Classes that I've been in are lovely, very impressive, and I much prefer them to both the A4 and 3-Series.

- Experience of recent BMWs makes me surprised about the comments re: interior quality, as I find it quite disappointing - although I haven't seen the very latest 5-Series. Both 320 and 330d (automatics) I've been in have a good turn of pace but are noisy under acceleration and the 330d especially sent a lot of vibration through the pedals and steering wheel. X3 was better in this regard. The iDrive system is hateful, even among colleagues who are owners they are mystified by press praise for how simple and intuitive it is. I can't get on with it at all.

- The Lexus infotainment is miles behind the competition, I think we all know that. Top Gear sum up the ES as a car for 'drivers that don't like driving' and I'd say my experience of the Lexus range backs that up - they are quiet and refined cars for cruising around in. They certainly aren't 'sports cars' (couple of F models excepted) and I'd be surprised if an 'enthusiastic' driver would buy one after a decent test drive if they were after greater performance.

Given the levels of discount available on German diesels at the moment, cost of ownership for three years ought to be lower than the Lexus I'd have thought. Private buyers looking for long term ownership should look at the Lexus because of the reliability and general quality. Top Gear note that the ES is a car you appreciate more the more miles you do in it. My NX has been just like that.

If I were a company or lease buyer, I'd probably go for one of the Germans in this test rather than the ES, although actually I'd probably go for a Volvo...

...but as a private buyer I'd definitely buy Japanese or Korean.

Linas.P · May 26, 2019

@First_Lexus - I guess it is personal thing, but i-drive is one of the most intuitive systems for me... it hasn't changed that much for last 10 years, but it aged well and was improved gradually... still to this day I feel it is best implementation of infotainment system in the car, on the other hand I hate Audi system, whereas I know several people who consider it the best. Perhaps each person has something different about the system which makes it better or worse, at least I hope by this time everyone agrees that Lexus system is literally the worse when it comes to controls, not necessary functionality or quality of components, but if you cannot control it then what is the point?

I like your (or topgear) summary - "car for drivers who don't like driving"... that is spot on, I don't think it could be better said. They are not bad cars, they are sufficiently fast for commuting, well build, decent quality materials and equipment... but "that something" is missing and I am the driver who likes driving. If you just try to throw them in the corner or drive more enthusiastically the car seems to punish you, the controls are not that precise and the noises it makes are outright scary. After a while you just give-up set it to cruise control and let it labour - that is where these cars feels fine, constant speeds on open road.

I personally surprised that press still looks at diesels, I guess because BIK is still better on diesels than petrols for company car? I would just happy go with second from last petrol version on all of the german cars like 530i or E300 and be done with it, plenty fast and fuel economy is still very very good for the size of the car. In other hand with goverment grant 530e and 300e are not that much more expensive than petrol counterparts and yet have even lower BIK. I think that would be most relevant review, but sadly very few cars around which can be compared.

Linas.P · May 26, 2019

6 hours ago, fetchez la vache said:

1. On the question of performance, I think you got to be honest and says straight away, all these cars are going to be rubbish. Large, heavy cars, powered by circa 200 bhp diesel or petrol electric engines are never going to set the world alight. There is no joy in pinning the loud pedal on any of these cars. To say one is better than another is like saying it’s better to be poisoned rather than jumping off a cliff.

2. The same can be said of handling, S line, M sport, Amg line and F Sport are all totally marketing BS. Put any of these in an actual environment where their performance and handling is laid bare ie a race track and see just how awful these cars actually are.

3. these cars will be used on the congested highways and byways, usually at times when the highways and byways are at their most congested. .... as your going to be in it for 8-10 hours and 300-400 miles per day.

4. In the real world, hybrid beats stop/start diesel power. It’s a compromise sure (and soon to be outdated itself), but it’s better.

5. To reference back to the review, let’s think about each choice. The Audi is no doubt a superb car, but having owned an A6 from the emissions scandal period, I’m done with VAG cars. In the same way UK customers can whistle for their compensation my £40k every 3-4 years walks straight out of their showroom.

6. The E class, again, a superb car. 2 big issues. The interior. You might as well walk into the showroom and ask to ‘bling me’. And I’m sorry to say but the other issue is the whole taxi thing.

7. So the BMW. Let’s put it out there, it won this test as overall it’s the best car. It just is and in pretty much every metric the ES will fall short in comparison. the carwow review did hint to the ES’s appeal when it mentioned the black tie analogy. The BMW is the sharpest cut, best fitting tuxedo. You will look a million dollars. Problem is, so will everybody else as they are all wearing the same thing. It’s it nice to turn up at the ball in a white tux and a massive smile on your face.

8. But to pull off the ‘being different trick’ the ES has to be close enough to the competition. It cannot be a total disaster as then you are just cutting off your nose to spite your face. The ES manages to be close enough, while maintaining its quirky appeal (and to my eyes, looking the best of the bunch).

1. is simply not true, for one all 3 germans manages "driveable car" form is 240-255hp, because Lexus realistically doesn't even have 215hp ... (and here is really arbitrary measure) from my perspective it is just below that "driveable" line. Again for somebody else it could be somewhere else and I appreciate it. However, what my argument has always been - with BMW, MB and Audi you don't need to take that barely "driveable" car, you can always go for 530i, 530i, 530d, 535d, 540i, M5 etc. With Lexus you are stuck.. you can have either 300h or 300h.

2. S line, Amg line all that are "style pack" nowadays and not handling packs. However, BMW, Audi, MB are so much better handling cars than ES... I would say that is not necessary true for GS, but certainly true for ES. As well Audi should be "Audi* (if you go for quattro)", FWD Audi is junk like all FWD cars. But again nobody forces you to go FWD, with Audi you can always go AWD.

3. In which case diesel is going to be more fuel efficient than hybrid... and if I would need to drive on disgusting British roads for 8-10 hours a day I would just quit. Not that I don't like driving, but because british driving culture, laws is one of the worst in EU and the roads are most congested - anything over 1h is torture.

4. this is simply not true, case can be made that hybrid could have upper hand in 40-60 pulls (although I disagree), from stand still/start-stop 300h has not chances.

5./6./7. are pretty much the same point - for you it is more about exclusivity, for me it is more about choice. Although, Lexus is exclusive it gives you no choice (perhaps the reason why it is so exclusive - because the choice it gives are just too much of compromise).

8. Close enough is exactly the Lexus issue here and that could be said about GS, I don't think it is even fair to say ES is close, "perpetual last place winner" we can call it. Lexus is challenger brand in UK - it is either much better on something e.g. value for money, outright price, equipment or people won't switch. ES in this case is outclassed so no surprises there it is last, but that is because it is not replacement for GS. Where it needs to be - it needs to be at least 2-3rd choice, like Volvo does... I believe GS was capable of achieving that if Lexus would have prices them better, but ES was destined to be last.

I am kind of happy about this - Lexus bluffed with ES and were called out... for once consumers were actually informed correctly - "don't try to pull this s*** our our eyes ES is not replacement for GS, so don try to sell it as one". As I said few times I would not go for a diesel myself, secondly I would not buy Audi.. I just don't like them. I was surprised that MB is currently outright best value for money coming-up cheaper than ES.. that is bit embarrassing considering E-class is not only bigger car, but better equipped and cheaper. BMW workouts about the same and is the best of the bunch and Audi is most expensive and I hate it (that is obviously not very objective).

First_Lexus · May 26, 2019

Here is the Top Gear review. Some interesting points made.

Top Gear ES review

Linas.P · May 26, 2019

"A saloon car for people who don’t really care about/enjoy driving, but quite like big mpg and a nice stereo. A big front-drive premium car is never going to stir the soul, but by offering it as a tax-swerving hybrid and focusing on making it a nice, serene place to be, Lexus may have found a gap in the market. Just not one that’s ever going to interest the enthusiast."

Say whatever you like, but 6/10 and above summary is not "biased journalism", it is very balanced opinion. Maybe in the past TG and other outlets were unfair to Lexus, but this time around I feel they are almost propping it up from ... I don't known maybe ~sympathy of how disadvantaged they are with ES. I underlined the word enthusiast, because I think it explains why I dislike 300h and ES so much.

First_Lexus · May 26, 2019

53 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

"A saloon car for people who don’t really care about/enjoy driving, but quite like big mpg and a nice stereo. A big front-drive premium car is never going to stir the soul, but by offering it as a tax-swerving hybrid and focusing on making it a nice, serene place to be, Lexus may have found a gap in the market. Just not one that’s ever going to interest the enthusiast."

Say whatever you like, but 6/10 and above summary is not "biased journalism", it is very balanced opinion. Maybe in the past TG and other outlets were unfair to Lexus, but this time around I feel they are almost propping it up from ... I don't known maybe ~sympathy of how disadvantaged they are with ES. I underlined the word enthusiast, because I think it explains why I dislike 300h and ES so much.

With the caveat that I haven't driven an ES so can't vouch for ultimate accuracy, I thought both reviews were trying to be balanced.

Neither says the ES is a bad car, in fact they both say it has strengths and in the CarWow review Matt says he likes it. What they point out is that the ES will appeal to some drivers but not others, specifically that it won't suit enthusiastic drivers. For somebody looking for a long term proposition and a nice interior and ride it will tick a lot of boxes, and the reviews point that out.

Lexus isn't planning to sell that many in any case, and sales seem to be going well so far. For those looking for something different as a relaxing and well made option with great customer service the ES - much like other cars in the Lexus range - will find a lot of very satisfied owners, myself included.

I want driving to be as simple and relaxed as possible. If somebody else offers to drive, I would always rather they did to save me from having to drive. Lexus suits me perfectly!

Habu · May 26, 2019

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

"A saloon car for people who don’t really care about/enjoy driving, but quite like big mpg and a nice stereo. A big front-drive premium car is never going to stir the soul, but by offering it as a tax-swerving hybrid and focusing on making it a nice, serene place to be, Lexus may have found a gap in the market. Just not one that’s ever going to interest the enthusiast."

Say whatever you like, but 6/10 and above summary is not "biased journalism", it is very balanced opinion. Maybe in the past TG and other outlets were unfair to Lexus, but this time around I feel they are almost propping it up from ... I don't known maybe ~sympathy of how disadvantaged they are with ES. I underlined the word enthusiast, because I think it explains why I dislike 300h and ES so much.

What about the rest of the 300h's - NX, RC, IS or is it just the ES you have an issue with?

Linas.P · May 26, 2019

21 minutes ago, Habu said:

What about the rest of the 300h's - NX, RC, IS or is it just the ES you have an issue with?

I don't like SUVs, that is my default position so I don't think I can contribute much beyond saying they are pointless and unnecessary especially in the city. Is 300h that bad of a choice in SUV... I am not even sure about it, SUVs sucks at handling and dynamic anyway, so I doubt it could make it worse. If I would go for RX I would obviously go for 450h, but SUVs like X5M are even more pointless in my opinion then something like RX200t. To clarify here, I am talking about SUVs - pesky city cars with raised driving position, not off-roaders with proper 4X4 capabilities. I think it should be criminal offence to drive both in the city (it is joke OK?!), but at least in case of 4X4 it could be argued they have a purpose, SUVs don't. I am sure nowadays this is "minority opinion" (I can live with that).

If you have been following my post throughout the years you would know that I have an issues with 300h engine, or more correctly lack of other engine choice across the range. If Lexus would give viable alternative I would not be offended by existence of 300h (just to clarify RC-F is not viable), like I am not offended by 2L diesels and 2L turbo petrols in other brands - as long as you give the choice the issues is on buyer, but if you don't give a choice it is on manufacturer. ES perhaps being worse then the rest because beyond being sluggish it is as well FWD, this is another thing which I very specifically dislike. Although, I have already stated that when I drove ES300h I could not feel the difference of it being typical FWD, much more of it being typical 300h.

noby76 · May 27, 2019

there are still a MK3 IS250, MK4 GS250 and MK4 GS450h still with V6 engines on the car market with power ranging from 205bhp to 290/340bhp in the hybrid. for between £28k to £35k one can import an RC350 from Japan so the options are every where but someone still feels the need to keep crying about a 4 cylinder hybrid..

how many times has it been repeated in various threads, if the 4 cylinder is distasteful, surely one can get the other models with the V6 engines or move onto another manufacturer who has an engine power one fancies... this shouldn't be rocket science for any one to work out??

am i the only one who thinks this is now beginning to sound like a 'disorder'!!

Linas.P · May 27, 2019

1 hour ago, noby76 said:

there are still a MK3 IS250, MK4 GS250 and MK4 GS450h still with V6 engines on the car market with power ranging from 205bhp to 290/340bhp in the hybrid. for between £28k to £35k one can import an RC350 from Japan so the options are every where but someone still feels the need to keep crying about a 4 cylinder hybrid..

how many times has it been repeated in various threads, if the 4 cylinder is distasteful, surely one can get the other models with the V6 engines or move onto another manufacturer who has an engine power one fancies... this shouldn't be rocket science for any one to work out??

am i the only one who thinks this is now beginning to sound like a 'disorder'!!

No.. it is not a normal option and exactly good reason to be crying about poor line-up in UK. What you saying is irrelevant, because it is abnormal - it is not like I can go and purchase RC350 imported from Japan on my company or lease it form the Lexus dealership. If money is not an object obviously cars can be imported and exported, RC300h can be engine swapped with the engine from GS450h etc. sky is a limit. Some people in China are building Lamborghini in their slums - does that count as well? Only the NEW cars sold officially by the dealership counts - otherwise where we draw the line?

And in terms of how many times is discussed already in other threads - doesn't matter. It will continue to be discussed until Lexus going to start offering different engines. It is not like irrelevant issue, because Lexus now offers different option, as far as I can see they offer less and less options, so it just becoming more relevant with every year.

It depends how you put-it - I think disorder is that Lexus assumes 300h is good for everyone.. that is disorder...

noby76 · May 27, 2019

so we can all ascertain money being an object is what's preventing you.... why couldn't you come out and say it all along?? car loans can acquired easily if you have good credit for a car import so leasing through Lexus dealer is not the only option available...

heck if you really want to take this far why don't you draft an official letter to Lexus GB outlining your interest to have a 3.5 V6 RC make it known you have the funds to finance it regardless of cost to import one into the UK for you and so long as you are willing to spend regardless of the cost to get it to you from Japan i don't think thy would turn you down... you certainly are not achieving anything here on a forum by spending endless hours of your life typing away on how you hate a 4 cylinder... it takes a clued up person to realise this.

Habu · May 27, 2019

He is starting to sound like a stuck record, isn’t he!

Linas, we all get it, you dislike the ES, you hate the 300h, you hate FWD, but give it a rest. You made your point weeks ago. Despite making some valid points (yes, I’d have the 350 engine in a heartbeat) but now you’re just coming across like a troll with nothing better to do.

Linas.P · May 27, 2019

30 minutes ago, noby76 said:

you have the funds to finance it regardless of cost to import one into the UK

Does it even makes sense.... at least to yourself?

How much money I have, makes no difference in hypothetical discussion of how good or bad certain car is, or of how much or how little choice there is. Importing such mediocre nearly new car from Japan is total non-sense and you know it... why do you even suggest that?! RC350 in Japan costs ~ £32,000, but with all costs inclusive you can add 50% of that value in taxes and shipping - never-mind the problems once it is here, more expensive insurance, road tax, depreciation, Sat-nav in Japanese, Japanese speed limiter non-sense etc. Why would anyone in their right mind spend £48,000 to get some mid-range car from japan, when RC-F can be bought for £24,000 in UK (that is half price)?

And when it comes to Lexus I have provided them feedback (disappointment with RC300h). Their answer was very simple - get RC-F. And they are right - no matter how I do it is always going to be cheaper to get UK spec. RC-F than get RC350 from Japan... and with such small market like UK there are certainly not many people interested in RC350. That doesn't make RC300h better car however...

And money is obviously and object... What do you even mean? So if I have say £70,000 in my bank account does that mean I should waste £48,000 on importing RC350 from Japan? I hope you not working as financial adviser....

And what is this weird relation between... me having money, used or imported cars and how good ES300h is? Don't you think that is irrelevant? If I go and buy RC-F tomorrow or import RC350 from Japan, woudl that make me "eligible" to say ES300h is outclassed in UK? What it is all about.. I long lost hope to understand if you are taking **** or you really that detached from reality.

Linas.P · May 27, 2019

11 minutes ago, Habu said:

He is starting to sound like a stuck record, isn’t he!

Linas, we all get it, you dislike the ES, you hate the 300h, you hate FWD, but give it a rest. You made your point weeks ago. Despite making some valid points (yes, I’d have the 350 engine in a heartbeat) but now you’re just coming across like a troll with nothing better to do.

That is because you assuming I am seeking some sort of "consumer advise" from you... NO I am not!

I am just expressing my opinion about certain car. If next year Lexus going to release IS mk4 with same 300h engine and 8.6s 0-60... I will again tell you the same thing.... AND why wouldn't I? If Lexus once released 300h and it was crap, I said it and if they do it again I will say it again... until they release something different and my response is going to be different. why you expect me to say something different when describing the same?! I call that "consistent".

Do you suggest I should not post if I have nothing new or positive to say? From when this is a requirement? How about all people in favour of 300h stopping posting positive opinions as well i.e. "300h is fast enough". Next thing - we close the forum, because one could post only if they say something new and positive toward Lexus... and who even decides what "new and positive" means, that is going to be arbitrary..