UK set to adopt vehicle speed limiters

[Linas.P]

9 hours ago, Comedian said:

...............and here it is - the real reason to install tracking technology

GPS = Global POSITIONING system

https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/news/motoring-news/new-fuel-tax-annual-road-toll/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CHUB_INSUR_A_W1_2019-04-03_160446_10175219&cid=eml-email-CHUB_INSUR_A_W1_2019-04-03_160446_10175219-Drive_NL_INSU_1st_Feature

Yes and then some smart-*** going to explain that this is not a "ROAD TAX", this is NFTART or whatever and one paying it still has no say of how it is spent on the roads or otherwise.

This is plainly stupid - we pay for a service, it is no different as paying for internet or water. You pay the bill and if service is junk, say internet doesn't work or water is not running you claim refund. We pay for the road, but when they are littered with pot holes, not fit for purpose and infested with hell knows what - we being told that " we do not pay for the roads so should not get upset about it"... outrageous.

I hope one day British going to start acting like French... there is not other way but riots.. maybe then this nonsense going to end.

[Texas]

On 28 March 2019 at 9:21 AM, scudney said:

It probably won't be long before it becomes mandatory for all new vehicles to be fitted with black boxes too,sort of makes sense with the way things seem to be going 😁lol

Scudney hit the nail on the head a few pages back! 

Don't be distracted by this speed limiter thing because that is only part of the proposal, the fact is the media monkeys used this as the headline to attract attention ( like they do ) but what you should really be worried/annoyed/talking about is this aspect,

 

[Linas.P]

That is something I have already pointed out, however in the video there are 2 major mistakes:

1. Nobody can force you to provide your data recorder data (that is unless its streamed in real time, or they have possession of your vehicle in which case they can "help themselves"). Currently, in UK there is no law which would force this, nor it is in the regulation itself. I am not saying it won't become the case, but based on fact this can be considered as scaremongering at the moment.

2. Cars already records a lot of data, including GPS data. In fact most of the new cars as of today can record and send such data, the only difference is that currently it is not legal requirement for new cars across Europe, but data recorder are there already and in some cases are already being used again drivers in the court. And I am not talking about Tesla here - some Seat from 1995 will have enough data in ECU to get you prosecuted e.g. speed at the time airbag has deployed.

As I have previously mentioned, the issue is not with data recording (every Lexus woudl have that already), but with who can access it, when and why. I remember watching some UK police "reality show" and there was a deadly crash involving 2003 Renault Megane RS, in that case driver has died after crashing into back of the lorry, but the amount of the data police was able to retrieve from the car was staggering. In that case they only proven that car was doing 83MPH when airbags sensor was triggered, as well as data in milliseconds when brake has been pressed and when ABS has been triggered, even though actual airbags and ABS have been removed. In case driver would have survived and somebody would have been injured in the car in front, same data would have been used against the driver. I think for this particular example it is probably good police had access to the data, but in cases where data would be shared without us knowing and "big brother" would be watching and issuing automatic fines every-time you go 1 mile over the limit would be annoying.

[dutchie01]

The net is closing, according to the German Press there is now a majority for a maximum speed on the autobahn. The environmental and traffic safety clubs are leading but are now backed by the police unions and the general public opinion. Apparently people do feel " attacked " by fast travelling cars and it seems it will be a matter of time before a country wide limit will be enforced. Until now the car lobby was sucessfull in keeping the situation as it is but the situation apparently changes rapidly. 

[Linas.P]

Not "car lobby" - but capable drivers who not spending money just for the sake of having 200mph car parked in garage. Why would anyone want to spend 2 hours on the same trip whereas it could be done in 1 hour?

Environment groups - that is synonym for "most ignorant people on earth". They don't find an issue with 45% of pollution caused by consumerism and blind consumtion, 25% of power generation... noo that is not the problem. Problem is this 2.4% caused by private vehicles.. that is the reason to limit personal freedoms and bring all the roads to standstill. Equally they don't have problem as it seems with traffic jams caused by inadequate road infrastructure, because surely that is an issue when cars travelling at 120MPH burns 15% more fuel, but not an issue when cars stuck in traffic burns 50% more fuel... In short either these groups are ignorant or the total hypocrites.

For police unions is the same case as for speed cameras in UK, this would mean a lot of extra income - why wouldn't they?

General public... well that is none of their business. If you want to ask about roads - you ask drivers, if you want to ask about public transport - as commuters. "general" public just cannot have a valid opinion because they do depend on those autobahns or speeds. It is like you asking me what I think about trains and commuting to London... I don't care I drive. Do I wan't goverment to spend extra money on trains?! - no because I don't use them. Same here - if you not the one driving on autobahn you won't support it. So if you ask "general public" you will obviously get wrong answer, because you asking wrong people. Drivers are paying extra in most countries, hence deserves more in terms of infrastructure.

People can feel whatever they like, nobody's problem. If they are not capable of driving and do not posses the skill - that is their problem, not the drivers driving fast. Everything is very simple - there are rules and discipline on the roads, if you follow it, you won't have a problem. Even in Germany if you driving on the first lanes the speeds will be 80-90MPH, and even those travelling fast rarely go more than 120MPH for prolonged periods of time. On the other hand - are they feeling "attacked" or simply jealous? 

Generally, I think (and that is just my opinion) there is direct relation between driver skill and support for unlimited speeds. More skilful and experience the driver is (excluding seniors, who probably shouldn't be on the road anyway) more likely they support higher speed limits, the less experienced the drivers are the more intimidated they feel. There is other exception - women are much more likely to support higher limits, I would not want to speculate why. Funny enough they are speeding just as much as men, but when it comes to outright speed you will always find women advocating for limits. For last few decades more and more women started driving so obviously there is pressure from gender side as well. The truth is that some people are just better drivers than the other, but then we have fundamental questions - should we raise the bar and only allow those capable of driving on the roads, or should we make it more inclusive and allow everyone on the roads. Britain clearly chosen latter - allow anyone to drive as they wish, but reduce the speeds to walking pace, Germany so far seems to have higher standard and higher speeds. It is quite clear which one I would support...

[nigelsanne]

I am sorry but this obsession with speed is completely misguided.  I am a retired teacher and I used to drive a minibus regularly.  When speed limiters were introduced they frightened the pants off me.  I would be travelling on a clear road with a vehicle in front that was driving just a little too slowly for the conditions at the time.  I would pull out to overtake and the limiter would kick in just as I was along side the vehicle, which had just woken up and increased it's speed as I was in the middle of the overtaking manoeuvre. Very dangerous situation to be in especially as it was imposed without driver control. Meanwhile I have a car behind me and I am having to slow during an over taking manoeuvre. Incredibly dangerous for everyone behind me.

Speed is not and never has been one of the major causes of road traffic accidents. This is a complete urban myth - rather like the number of spiders that we swallow in our sleep, we've all heard of that one as well, and some people still believe it!

Lets talk some figures here....20% off all recorded accidents have occurred because the driver has fallen asleep at the the wheel.  75% of accidents occur because of 'human error' (loss of concentration/ not checking mirrors before manoeuvring/ mobile phone distraction / driver distraction by other vehicle occupants etc...etc.) Less than 5% of accidents (According to ROSPA) have anything to do with speed and of those 5%, it is difficult to determine whether speed was the deterring factor or just a contributory factor.  If you are going to be serious about saving lives then shouldn't you do something about addressing the main causes of accidents?  If we are going to develop autonomous safety devices within the vehicles then we should be developing technology to address the main issues.  There is already a Lexus system to detect drivers falling asleep at the wheel, that is four times more effective than chasing speeding drivers.  There is so much misinformation or 'fake news' regarding our highways; take the 'stopping distances' as published in the Highway Code.  Completely false!  The Ministry of Transport has a duty to make the roads safer but it is clearly not tackling the route causes but just taking an easy approach by using basic technology to address a safety issue that is minuscule when looking at road safety as a whole.  Peoples lives are at risk with thousand dying needlessly because the research is not being undertaken and the technology is not being developed to tackle that main causes of road traffic accidents. 

[DanD]

Speed limiters address the symptoms... to some extent... but do not address the root causes which are embedded in poor education, ignorance, stupidity, selfishness and general lack of respect.

This extends to pedestrians and cyclists who I believe should should be made to take responsibility for the accidents they are involved in if it can be proven they are at fault. Two cyclists riding side-by-side and swearing at you because you dare toot at them to get past is not right. Cyclists going through red lights is not right. Pedestrians giving you a mouthful when they walk behind a reversing car in a car park is not right. It seems to me that people are becoming increasingly quick to blame others rather than take responsibility for their actions.

The wearing of helmets should be mandatory for all cyclists. It has been in France for around 40 years.

Speed does not kill. People kill. Maybe, but is this not the same argument used by Americans who are until gun-control? - If ALL people were to consistently behave responsibly, but also had the same mental and physical abilities, the same altruism, etc, etc, then we would not need speed limits. Nor would we need any motoring laws. Or laws at all even?

 

On 4/12/2019 at 1:26 PM, Linas.P said:

Environment groups - that is synonym for "most ignorant people on earth". They don't find an issue with 45% of pollution caused by consumerism and blind consumtion, 25% of power generation...

Really Linas, I have learnt to control myself and ignore your rants, but  some of your comments are becoming rather offensive.

[Linas.P]

5 hours ago, DanD said:

Speed limiters address the symptoms... to some extent... but do not address the root causes which are embedded in poor education, ignorance, stupidity, selfishness and general lack of respect.

This extends to pedestrians and cyclists who I believe should should be made to take responsibility for the accidents they are involved in if it can be proven they are at fault. Two cyclists riding side-by-side and swearing at you because you dare toot at them to get past is not right. Cyclists going through red lights is not right. Pedestrians giving you a mouthful when they walk behind a reversing car in a car park is not right. It seems to me that people are becoming increasingly quick to blame others rather than take responsibility for their actions.

The wearing of helmets should be mandatory for all cyclists. It has been in France for around 40 years.

Speed does not kill. People kill. Maybe, but is this not the same argument used by Americans who are until gun-control? - If ALL people were to consistently behave responsibly, but also had the same mental and physical abilities, the same altruism, etc, etc, then we would not need speed limits. Nor would we need any motoring laws. Or laws at all even?

 

Really Linas, I have learnt to control myself and ignore your rants, but  some of your comments are becoming rather offensive.

I do agree with what you said - what is your issue with my sentence you quoted? 

[Geoffers]

On 4/5/2019 at 8:48 PM, Linas.P said:

1. Nobody can force you to provide your data recorder data (that is unless its streamed in real time, or they have possession of your vehicle in which case they can "help themselves"). Currently, in UK there is no law which would force this, nor it is in the regulation itself. I am not saying it won't become the case, but based on fact this can be considered as scaremongering at the moment.

What? That is the most ridiculous thing I have read. Of course there are many ways to get this data via courts. Just because there isn't a SPECIFIC law you can't be so naive as to to genuinely believe they can't obtain it.  Do you follow any court cases at all? (I mean actually follow the cases?)

 

On 4/12/2019 at 1:26 PM, Linas.P said:

Germany so far seems to have higher standard and higher speeds.

I've lived in Germany and for the majority it is 50k in a built up area and 100k outside. Only very specific roads with very strict spacing laws do they travel faster. These are actually fewer then people (like yourself who clearly like to quote Germany) think!

 

On 4/12/2019 at 1:26 PM, Linas.P said:

there is direct relation between driver skill and support for unlimited speeds

I'm not condoning forced speed limitation but as a side note - It's the things out of your control that are the issue, and the damage caused by the velocity of the car. If there is an accident, the faster the vehicle is travelling the more damage it is likely to do either inside or outside the car. It doesn't matter how skilled you are at driving, it's not going to stop a piece of metal entering your intergluteal cleft. You have to look at damage limitation.

 

[rich1068]

Don't. You'll start him off again.

[dutchie01]

Volvo announced they will limit all cars at 180kph from next year on. This could be "announce it and see what flack we get"type of thing but for a manufacturer it makes sense. Of course the Volvo safety will make it easier to bring the message across. But it could mean lighter cars, smaller engines, brakes etc etc. 

good thing and will more manufacturers follow this step?    

[Linas.P]

20 hours ago, Geoffers said:

Of course there are many ways to get this data via courts.  Do you follow any court cases at all? (I mean actually follow the cases?)

very specific roads with very strict spacing laws do they travel faster. These are actually fewer then people (like yourself who clearly like to quote Germany) think!

It doesn't matter how skilled you are at driving, it's not going to stop a piece of metal 

me naive? Name me one way please.. if there is no law that means exactly that - it cannot be "legally" obtained, unless you voluntary provide it. I think you are watching too much TV court drama (you know it is scripted right? most TV judges don't even have degree in law, they are literally actors, as well as defendants and everyone in the room). Have you actually been in real court room? Please enlighten me with actual cases where defendant was forced to provide footage.

This is one of main misconceptions and I am sure you are misinformed along the same lines. 1. Can dashcam footage be used against you? YES, it can and it will be if you voluntary provide it. 2. Can court order you to provide the footage and are you obliged to keep it, provide it ? NO, NO and NO. Court could never force you to incriminate yourself, however if somebody else have that footage they can provide it to court as evidence and court can decide if it is suitable and can be used. Court as well have to inform you and in theory if the footage was obtained illegally e.g. by hacking into your computer, you can block-it from being used as evidence, but court could ultimately decide what is in public interest. You can as well sue anyone who has provided evidence in case the evidence has been obtained illegally - same any any other theft, that however makes no difference in the original case where "illegal" evidence is used against you.

In Germany nowadays they only have limited number of "unrestricted" autobahns - correct. However, rest of autobahns are usually 130km/h (that is 81MPH, generally across EU), where in UK we have ancient 70MPH (113km/h). But that is not all - in Germany speed limits are anything but strictly enforced... what are you kidding?! Fine for up to 10km/h is €10, up to 20km/h €30? I would drive 20km/h faster all day long if that would be the fine here in UK. Only for 40+km/h you get somewhat comparable fine to UK (€120) and only 1 point on the licence. In UK you get £100 +3 points even for 1MPH (4 years ago I got fine for 2MPH, managed to get away with "speed awareness course" so no points). Even for mental speeds like 100km over at worse you can get fine and few month driving ban, where in UK you would got to jail. As well in Germany you automatically get deduction from your "clocked speed" -2km/h -10%. People say 3km/h but that is only true for 20km/h zone which is the lowest limit.

Your skill does not matter if somebody cut you off - agree. My point regarding relation between "driver" skill and speed whats in broader context i.e. "when driver training in the country overall is higher, the speed limits could be higher". Meaning that in the countries with strict driving etiquette, where people are properly trained to drive and strictly follow the rules (like Germany)can afford to safely have higher limits. Not like in UK where everyone are sleeping in the middle lane or dreaming god knows about what, concentration and discipline on the UK roads are appalling.

p.s. @rich1068 - you welcome...