UK set to adopt vehicle speed limiters

[Thackeray]

Of course, all the contributors to this forum are above average drivers (most people are, when you ask them). So it seems like an infringement of personal liberty for people like us to have speed limiters imposed on us.

But then I wonder, does it make sense that we already have speed limiters for professional drivers but not for the amateurs? Maybe it should be the other way round. Hands up anyone who thinks we should take the limiters off professionally driven vehicles.

[Hadrian]

Define the difference between an  amateur and a professional driver....

[Thackeray]

Not a definition but here's some background

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ppv3a9/international-lorry-drivers-swiss-truck-stop-876

[scudney]

Some of the so called professional drivers( those who drive for a living) are the worst culprits.As for freedom,thats being eroded every day and we are hardly saying anything, so what difference is one more going make lol😁

[Nico72]

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

The proposal seems very sensible to me and similar in concept to the current idea of using the cruise control to limit one` speed in controlled areas.

It will lead to more automated driving so we will all end up being driven by our cars instead of driving for the cheer pleasure of it... It will progressively get worst in this direction. 

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

I wonder what the Government will do to make up the shortfall in speeding fines though?

That is a very good question indeed. I think they would review how to keep collecting money by trying to catch drivers using their mobile phones, or drinking/eating whilst driving...

The same would apply when a majority of cars become more and more eco friendly driving in Congestion Charge zone, how will ccLondon be able to continue finance their scheme? 

[Ten Ninety]

I would have less of an issue with this proposal if the following were true:

a) Speedometers in this country actually reported accurate speeds like they do in the US, instead of over-reading by what is often a ridiculous margin. You can bet the limiter will operate at the speedometer reading not the real speed, meaning we'll all be doing 3-5mph less than the actual limit.

b) Speed limits weren't set by local council morons who think the answer to 'road safety' is just to continually lower the limit on roads which are perfectly safe at the NSL if you actually drive with your eyes open and look at the road ahead. Yes, I'm bitter that half of my commute has just gone from NSL to 40 for no good reason whatsoever, but the point still stands. Too many limits are now simply too low. 

c) 'Road Sign Recognition' systems actually worked. Many are a complete joke that routinely report completely the wrong limit after missing or misreading signs. The Toyota one, which presumably will be similar to any Lexus system, is spectacularly hopeless.

In principle, I have no problem with enforced limits of excessive speed. But unless the three things above change then I suspect we're all going to end up stuck behind the person in the brand new car who's forced to do 5mph below a limit that's been set 20mph too low in the first place. Or behind the Toyota still chuntering along at 30 because it failed to spot the NSL signs half a mile ago. At which point someone in a yet-to-be-limited car will get so fed up that they overtake desperately, misjudge their move and end up killing someone.

[Mike Hartland]

" I wonder what the Government will do to make up the shortfall in speeding fines though? "

I guess they are hoping that a drop in fatal accidents, with their cost to emergency services and the economy will make up the shortfall

[Mike Hartland]

17 hours ago, Thackeray said:

Of course, all the contributors to this forum are above average drivers (most people are, when you ask them).

When I was a young Police Officer I was told that there are two things that you can't tell a man, a) His wife is ugly, and b) He is a bad driver

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Mike Hartland said:

When I was a young Police Officer I was told that there are two things that you can't tell a man, a) His wife is ugly, and b) He is a bad driver

I don't think a) is true but b) yes.

Bad driving is certainly an issue. 2 calls to air ambulance near me this week, within 100m of a roundabout. Not speeding - lack of attention perhaps? Too fast for the particular traffic density? The point is the situation on the road is fluid and appropriate speed changes all the time. More strictly enforcing inappropriate limits is not going to work. IF safety is the real reason for it - which I doubt very much. 

[malcolmw]

This legislation is to make manufacturers fit appropriate electronics to new cars in preparation for road pricing using the EU Galileo GPS. This is to provide a source of future revenue when fuel tax begins to fall with the mandated introduction of electric vehicles in the future. It does not mean that the infrastructure to allow all this technology will be in place and working by 2022.

The system will require the widespread us of 5G to allow realtime datacomms from vehicles and, as a secondary feature, will allow realtime monitoring of speeds etc.

The big problem is that older vehicles without this technology will probably be around until 2042 and so a blanket system cannot be introduced for a long time.

Another big issue is that technology is not perfect - Boeing 737 Max 8 anyone?

[scudney]

It probably won't be long before it becomes mandatory for all new vehicles to be fitted with black boxes too,sort of makes sense with the way things seem to be going 😁lol

[royoftherovers]

35 minutes ago, Comedian said:

I don't think a) is true but b) yes.

Bad driving is certainly an issue. 2 calls to air ambulance near me this week, within 100m of a roundabout. Not speeding - lack of attention perhaps? Too fast for the particular traffic density? The point is the situation on the road is fluid and appropriate speed changes all the time. More strictly enforcing inappropriate limits is not going to work. IF safety is the real reason for it - which I doubt very much. 

It is not just bad driving.

In my experience such people are also lacking in many of life`s social skills and could not articulate without using what for many is coarse,offensive and disrespectful language.

Such behaviour begins in the home and goes without being addressed by parents who increasingly were brought up in the same way.

Rant over.

[royoftherovers]

29 minutes ago, malcolmw said:

This legislation is to make manufacturers fit appropriate electronics to new cars in preparation for road pricing using the EU Galileo GPS. This is to provide a source of future revenue when fuel tax begins to fall with the mandated introduction of electric vehicles in the future. It does not mean that the infrastructure to allow all this technology will be in place and working by 2022.

The system will require the widespread us of 5G to allow realtime datacomms from vehicles and, as a secondary feature, will allow realtime monitoring of speeds etc.

The big problem is that older vehicles without this technology will probably be around until 2042 and so a blanket system cannot be introduced for a long time.

Another big issue is that technology is not perfect - Boeing 737 Max 8 anyone?

Not just the Technology Malc. Do not forget the clowns who insisted upon its specification and then did not ensure comprehensive and adequate testing and adequate training and adequate entries within the flight manuals.

Oh and don`t forget the morons at NASA who ignored the advice from Morton Thiokol and then sent Challenger and her 7 crew to their doom !!

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

It is not just bad driving.

In my experience such people are also lacking in many of life`s social skills and could not articulate without using what for many is coarse,offensive and disrespectful language.

Such behaviour begins in the home and goes without being addressed by parents who increasingly were brought up in the same way.

Rant over.

Well - as much as I am sure you're correct to some degree....I doubt this new technology will address those deeper social issues either. So another reason to say it's pointless.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

 

Oh and don`t forget the morons at NASA who ignored the advice from Morton Thiokol and then sent Challenger and her 7 crew to their doom !!

And why some policy needs to be data driven. As humans we always always always have emotion/pressures take some part of our decision making processes. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Comedian said:

More strictly enforcing inappropriate limits is not going to work.

That is very true. I watch British dashcam videos from time to time (although Russian is much more "interesting") and there are basically 2 types of accidents and/or dangerous situation:

1. Somebody driving like total nutter i.e. wrong way, cuts from side street without looking, through the red light etc.

2. The road layout are outright stupid and dangerous, be that blind exits, corners, micro roundabouts, massive roundabouts without clear markings or simply overcrowded etc.

Not a single case which I can remember where speed was a factor. Most of smaller streets in UK are not suitable for any speed never-mind speeding. Inappropriate speed for the situation - well that could be a factor... but these speed limiters won't be able to set "appropriate" limit anyway.

In the end of the day - it is not EU imposing it (sound like click-bait from The Shun) - most of the governments in EU want this, particularly UK. There are wagging war against motorists and anything motorised in most of western Europe. As UK parliament always blames EU for all issues caused by themselves, same for the road planners - they always blame drivers and speeding for all issues caused by stupid or inappropriate road design. Then obviously, the ignorant ones says - let's leave EU, let's restrict the speed etc.

In the end of the day it clearly states - it is not going to be hard limiter, you will be able to override it. Speed limiters already exists in most of new cars anyway and they work the same - it limits the speed, but if you press accelerator harder it overrides the limit for overtaking. What is new legislation does is just makes this being fitted a mandatory requirement - same as headlight washers for HIDs. Secondly, it gets GPS feature, so basically it makes it "automatic limiter" instead of "manual" one... similar to cruise control vs. radar cruise.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 

In the end of the day - it is not EU imposing it (sound like click-bait from The Shun) - most of the governments in EU want this, particularly UK. There are wagging war against motorists and anything motorised in most of western Europe. As UK parliament always blames EU for all issues caused by themselves, same for the road planners - they always blame drivers and speeding for all issues caused by stupid or inappropriate road design. Then obviously, the ignorant ones says - let's leave EU, let's restrict the speed etc.

 

True but as laws are discussed in almost secret conditions until it's too late the UK gov can happily blame them. 

See Article 13 as a case in point. 

[Linas.P]

3 hours ago, Comedian said:

True but as laws are discussed in almost secret conditions until it's too late the UK gov can happily blame them. 

See Article 13 as a case in point. 

Shifting the blame is always the best way for politicians. EU does not discuss it on secret conditions - all the governments knows exactly how it is and I am sure British one will be one of the biggest supporter, MEPs knows as well... problem is that in UK we have never taken MEPs and MEPs elections seriously... therefore we have such "great" representatives like Nigel F. ... I am trying to imagine myself booking as meeting with him to voice my opinion on this planned change, or Article 13 (by the way heavily supported by British lobbies, because we have ones of the largest creative/music industries in EU).

In summary - the propose change doesn't actually change anything, it is soft limiter which can be overridden by pressing accelerator. Data leakage is potential risk - but we have GDPR from the same EU which deals with it fairly well.

EU works on the same principles as any other government, has elected MEPs and they make the laws - so nothing is being imposed. Realistically there is support for it as well, because many "non-drivers" thinks that it is good idea, because they are sold lies that "speed kills", so even democratically it will pass.

[Linas.P]

Secondly, just for a record - the proposal is not simply to install speed limiters, it I comprehensive list to make cars safer... which in my book is a good thing ~overall. I do not agree with speed limiting, nor pedestrian safety (if they stupid enough to wonder on the road it should be their price to pay), but overall there are many thing which I would like to see as a standard.

Here is what is in proposal:

👍 Advanced emergency braking (cars, vans)
👎 Alcohol interlock installation facilitation (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - I personally dislike because it could be argued what the limit should be.. and I don't exactly agree with common 0.2 - 0.4 promille across EU. Some countries now have 0.0 etc.
👍 Drowsiness and attention detection (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Distraction recognition / prevention (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - generally good... just cannot see this working right.
👍 Event (accident) data recorder (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - most cars already have it, the problem is how it can be used legally and who has right to see data.
👍 Emergency stop signal (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Full-width frontal occupant protection crash test – improved seatbelts (cars and vans)
👎 Head impact zone enlargement for pedestrians and cyclists -safety glass in case of a crash (cars and vans) - don''t want to pay single penny for this.. you cross my way without way of right you die! Look where you going, especially if it involves crossing the road.. simple  
🤙 Intelligent speed assistance (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Lane keeping assist (cars, vans)
👍 Pole side-impact occupant protection (cars, vans)
👍 Reversing camera or detection system (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Tyre pressure monitoring system (vans, trucks, buses)
👎  Vulnerable road user detection and warning on the front and side of the vehicle (trucks and buses) - don't make yourself vulnerable. Why choose to be Vulnerable and then blame others? 
👎 Vulnerable road user improved direct vision from the driver’s position (trucks and buses)

[LexusIS300h]

9 hours ago, scudney said:

It probably won't be long before it becomes mandatory for all new vehicles to be fitted with black boxes too,sort of makes sense with the way things seem to be going 😁lol

This was also mentioned at the same time as the speed limiters and how effective it will be in keeping insurance companies in the wealth to which they have become accustomed. 

Just for a second think if you had one installed on your car (not that it will be optional). Any time you decide to have a little blast, it’s recorded. The thing about data is if there’s a record it can be read and with the internet of things already happening, it doesn’t take too much imagination for that little indiscretion to be sent as a data file to interested parties, such as police and insurance companies. One or both have then got a really good future revenue stream in fines and increased premiums.

I hope this takes another 10 to 15 years to happen though, because after that I won’t give a monkeys....

[Nico72]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

Secondly, just for a record - the proposal is not simply to install speed limiters, it I comprehensive list to make cars safer... which in my book is a good thing ~overall. I do not agree with speed limiting, nor pedestrian safety (if they stupid enough to wonder on the road it should be their price to pay), but overall there are many thing which I would like to see as a standard.

Here is what is in proposal:

👍 Advanced emergency braking (cars, vans)
👎 Alcohol interlock installation facilitation (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - I personally dislike because it could be argued what the limit should be.. and I don't exactly agree with common 0.2 - 0.4 promille across EU. Some countries now have 0.0 etc.
👍 Drowsiness and attention detection (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Distraction recognition / prevention (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - generally good... just cannot see this working right.
👍 Event (accident) data recorder (cars, vans, trucks, buses) - most cars already have it, the problem is how it can be used legally and who has right to see data.
👍 Emergency stop signal (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Full-width frontal occupant protection crash test – improved seatbelts (cars and vans)
👎 Head impact zone enlargement for pedestrians and cyclists -safety glass in case of a crash (cars and vans) - don''t want to pay single penny for this.. you cross my way without way of right you die! Look where you going, especially if it involves crossing the road.. simple  
🤙 Intelligent speed assistance (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Lane keeping assist (cars, vans)
👍 Pole side-impact occupant protection (cars, vans)
👍 Reversing camera or detection system (cars, vans, trucks, buses)
👍 Tyre pressure monitoring system (vans, trucks, buses)
👎  Vulnerable road user detection and warning on the front and side of the vehicle (trucks and buses) - don't make yourself vulnerable. Why choose to be Vulnerable and then blame others? 
👎 Vulnerable road user improved direct vision from the driver’s position (trucks and buses)

This is detailed safety stuffs you just posted. Nice.

I must say that if we are going to carry on with all these new safety features and keep on adding whatever we may find in the near future to reach zero fatality, very soon, we are all going to rediscover to what it will be like seating in the back seat of any new intelligent cars - which would guarantee the zero fatality (providing all vehicles are fitted with the same common technology). 

I would not be surprised if this happens sooner than later, we will be driven from A to B with AI technology - we would just have to say where we want to go and seat in the back only with our seat belts on (of course) - The future could be: own a car that speaks the voice you wish to live with ie  New BMW self driven car with the voice of 'J-LO' or Ferrari with the voice of Schumacher or Lexus with the voice of Kylie Minogue? Our grand kids would then want to hear stories about us 'what was it like driving a car before AI took over?'... Driving a vehicle for the cheer pleasure may only be allowed on tracks... This is perhaps a bit too far fetched but a possibility.

[Linas.P]

The reality of the driving is that missing part in all this "road safety goals" ... is the human factor. So it is almost inevitable that driver will be eliminated at some point.

Obviously, there are other ways - like educating drivers, building safe and well designed roads with logical layouts, only allowing fit (both in terms of physical fitness and mentally) people to drive etc. But all that costs money and goverment doesn't like to spend money on positive thing. Governments would rather skimp on positive change and improving imperfect human, easier just to remove the driver from the drivers seat and make everything automated - much cheaper and easier to control. "You can pay for your car and choose from the list of pre-defined routes during pre- defined hours - here you have sir! Excellent service"

Furthermore, current generation is already brainwashed and not really into this "dirty, penguin burning, cyclist killing and stressful thing". It is much better to share few farts and diseases on the public transport with mates... ohh and as for the choices and personal freedom - that is "old fashion" and for the weak.

[doog442]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Not a single case which I can remember where speed was a factor. Most of smaller streets in UK are not suitable for any speed never-mind speeding. Inappropriate speed for the situation - well that could be a factor... but these speed limiters won't be able to set "appropriate" limit anyway.

 

What you fail to understand is that you should drive to the road conditions. That could be the layout, the weather or a multitude of things.

Nothing will change that and as a result speed is indeed a factor in many accidents or collisions as they are referred to now.   

[royoftherovers]

9 hours ago, doog442 said:

What you fail to understand is that you should drive to the road conditions. That could be the layout, the weather or a multitude of things.

Nothing will change that and as a result speed is indeed a factor in many accidents or collisions as they are referred to now.   

You are spot on Doog.

Linas is not alone in this regard as in my experience today`s younger generations are not aware of phrases like"driving without due care and attention" which is why inter-alia,they eat and drink liquids whilst in charge of their vehicle and pull in without signalling their intentions to other road users,.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Linas.P said:

 

Data leakage is potential risk - but we have GDPR from the same EU which deals with it fairly well.

EU works on the same principles as any other government, has elected MEPs and they make the laws - 

No it doesn't

&

No it doesn't

I'm not getting into it though