RX450h - Catalytic Converter Theft

[Herbie]

39 minutes ago, Passerby said:

Has anyone had a catloc fitted to a 450h? What did Lexus charge (Toyota claim not to be making a profit on fitment....)

Why on earth would anyone go to a main dealer and pay such extortionate labour charges when any trusted and reputable garage could do it?

A place near me charges £50/hour and if I remember correctly Lexus charge about £130/hour. I don't know what Toyota charge but there's their profit, right there in that labour charge.

[Passerby]

9 minutes ago, Herbie said:

Why on earth would anyone go to a main dealer and pay such extortionate labour charges when any trusted and reputable garage could do it?

A place near me charges £50/hour and if I remember correctly Lexus charge about £130/hour. I don't know what Toyota charge but there's their profit, right there in that labour charge.

I didn't ask for labour rates - can you answer the question?

[Herbie]

8 minutes ago, Passerby said:

I didn't ask for labour rates - can you answer the question?

I have - it's about an hour to an hour and a half job so work it out from that.

EDIT: Sorry, I got that completely wrong. According to http://catloc.co.uk/our-solution/ (FAQ section "How long does it take to fit?) they typically take about 20 minutes to fit, so you can work out the charge from that.

[Keeling54]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49767195

[Passerby]

1 hour ago, Herbie said:

I have - it's about an hour to an hour and a half job so work it out from that.

EDIT: Sorry, I got that completely wrong. According to http://catloc.co.uk/our-solution/ (FAQ section "How long does it take to fit?) they typically take about 20 minutes to fit, so you can work out the charge from that.

still not answering the question...

[Herbie]

49 minutes ago, Passerby said:

still not answering the question...

Then please feel free to ring a Lexus dealer and ask them.

[janey]

Message to everyone on this post & all other posts 

There is no need to be demanding and/or impolite to other members 

[Passerby]

my apologies

[Lager shandy]

Reminds me of those song lyrics I fought the law and the law one .

[phb10186]

8 hours ago, Herbie said:

Then please feel free to ring a Lexus dealer and ask them.

Lexus Hatfield labour charges as of yesterday were £115 + VAT per hour

[Barry14UK]

There seems to be two or more main groups that have Lexus franchise.  It would be interesting to know whether they have a group price for labour or how this differs according to area and between the groups.  I am at Cheltenham Branch next week and will take the  opportunity to ask about labour rates there.

One thing for sure is that Lexus and other 'Premium' marques charge an appreciably higher rate than the non 'Premium' car franchises.  Add this to complexity and additional time on many tasks and this adds to the disparity in service repair/charges, compounded by the more expensive cost of major spares for the top makes.

[Herbie]

5 hours ago, phb10186 said:

Lexus Hatfield labour charges as of yesterday were £115 + VAT per hour

I wasn't too far out then as I said about £130 and this comes to £138.

[Barry14UK]

I have since looked at what several Groups are charging for fixed services and I thought they are so similar that they must be operating like a Cartel  which essentially they must be because this is apparently what Lexus  expect.  Found this thread that covers the matter  in replies:- 

 

[Romasato]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:20 PM, phb10186 said:

 There are 2 cats on the RX400h... The main one is up near the engine, and can't be stolen, the second one is underneath the drivers seat. Both are platinum based, and thus have a scrap value. The one under the drivers seat is very vulnerable to theft. I am told the second one (the one that gets stolen) does about 15% of the emissions work, and the main one that can't be accessed easily does the vast majority of catalytic conversion. In other words, you are looking at the second stage of a 2-stage catalytic converter system

I was trying to google for the above information without luck - do you have any links where I could read about the 2 catalytic converters in RX400h?

EDIT: actually, after looking found the two other catalysts in the engine manifold diagram - from https://lexus-europe.epc-data.com/rx400h/mhu38r/5163/engine/1701/?full

Still, would love to have some source for the 15% bit of emissions work.

If the 15% bit is true, this brings me to the reasoning that I can skip replacing the stolen cat.converter avoiding the risk of repeated theft - at least for now or until the wave of thefts reduces.
I have already ordered the 3rd-party one from Catman.co.uk, but thinking I will not fit it and will wait for the MOT and try passing MOT without it. If they fail it - then I'll fit it up for £30 pounds or so.
For now a simple pipe will do.

[phb10186]

52 minutes ago, Romasato said:

Still, would love to have some source for the 15% bit of emissions work.

If the 15% bit is true, this brings me to the reasoning that I can skip replacing the stolen cat.

Oh that's not an evidence based reference, so couldn't provide any direct source, but having spoken to various Lexus and catalytic convertor specialists, those were the numbers mentioned in their comments...

You'll never have total peace of mind unless you fit genuine parts, so it's a choice to be made.

 

[Lager shandy]

Ok you can buy a dummy cat of eBay that's hollow for £55 it looks like one and any numpty from the mot bay will think it is one even if they test the emission as you have two inline already. And if the Eastern European lovelies cut it off then it's cost you another 55 plus fitting .so unless the vosa boys are going to pull you off the road thinking ayup lad he looks a bit dodgey let's cut his cat off and throw the rascal in prison .🙄

[smitham]

On 9/13/2019 at 10:20 PM, phb10186 said:

Just for info - had the Cat stolen from my 2009 RX400h last week too... in North London... very easy to spot - the car sounds like an old tractor, and obviously there is a big section of the exhaust missing on inspection. There are 2 cats on the RX400h... The main one is up near the engine, and can't be stolen, the second one is underneath the drivers seat. Both are platinum based, and thus have a scrap value. The one under the drivers seat is very vulnerable to theft. I am told the second one (the one that gets stolen) does about 15% of the emissions work, and the main one that can't be accessed easily does the vast majority of catalytic conversion. In other words, you are looking at the second stage of a 2-stage catalytic converter system.

Phoned up Lexus, and they had had 6 others done that week, and the parts were on back-order from Japan, unavailable until end of September. Quotation was £1300 for replacement of entire exhaust section - that's a lot, but it's comparable to other platinum-based systems that the Japanese manufacturers use.

What do you do if you don't want to pay £1300 and wait 3 weeks? Fit a universal replacement... won't be as good as the Lexus OEM part I would suppose, but I got mine for under £300 and welded in for another £50... so not as bad as I was expecting... certainly not worth an insurance claim. I could have got a used part for about £600, but its a 10-year old part as a minimum... with unknown mileage, so I was happy to try the universal option. I painted the welds and new piping with some high temp black paint to protect from any corrosion too.

What have I got now... a ceramic universal replacement - it doesn't have any scrap value as no platinum in it.

Obvious concerns:

Will it pass an MOT? - well, as I was told by an MOT tester, Hybrids are exempt from emissions testing, so there won't be an issue there (you can verify this info online).

Will it affect a warranty? - well probably, as its not OEM - but the car is 10 years old and its not under warranty anyway.

Will it last like the original part? - I bet it won't, but I can replace it three more times and still be ahead financially... so I don't care.

Does the car sound any different with a replacement cat? - Nope, sounds exactly the same as before in every way.

Could it throw a malfunction indicator light? - Nope, the lambda and O2 sensors are on the first Cat, and there are no sensors past it, so it can't lead to any OBD issues.

Will it effect power or fuel consumption? No idea, initial fuel economy figures are identical to before, and there is no noticeable difference to throttle response - I don't drive the car hard anyway, not the way I drive, and not what this car is for.

When I took the car to have the new Cat put in, there was another RX identical to mine having the same replacement part put in... so I am not alone, neither are the 1000s of Prius owners using similar universal replacements.

Use these guys: https://www.catman.co.uk/ Mike was a great help, and knows what he is doing - he told me he's supplied 40 RX400h cats this week... epidemic.

There are no other universal exhaust sections available (that I could find... and I looked extensively)... its Lexus or a universal one welded in. The only other option would be to get a stainless section fabricated... but they would still use the cat off the old system... which you don't have because it's been harvested by some degenerate already.

Hope this info is useful to those that need it... No idea about the 450, but I've been told they are targeting the entire Lexus range at the moment.

You can secure your Cats using a Cat Lock, of which there are several on the market... Costs about £150 and would take about an hour to install I think... certainly worth doing if you don't want the pain in the butt headache. https://www.catlocks.co.uk - ill get round to doing this shortly.

Cat thefts are rife at the moment, and it's simply a matter of time if you live in certain areas... so I wouldn't assume it won't happen to you.

Brilliant post thanks. 

Endemic in the SW London area.

Lexus Twickenham want 1400 and 2-3 month wait and of course, the car is unusable during this period.   Other aftermarket places cheaper but now a 4 month wait.

Didnt bother with insurance as would end up costing 1700 in terms of excess and NCB.  

Just placed an order with catman who was very helpful.    But I need to find someone who can weld it in SW London/NE Surrey area.

[Romasato]

1 minute ago, smitham said:

Just placed an order with catman who was very helpful.    But I need to find someone who can weld it in SW London/NE Surrey area.

I go to this guy in Brentford: http://carreraworxgarage.co.uk/, Tony is really helpful and the quote he gave ~60 pounds to fit the new catalyst. I actually do the oil change and did over there the bigger servicing jobs like spark plug change etc. So far happy with the service.

[Romasato]

Just received the Catman.co.uk catalytic converter for RX400h - and that's what it looks like:

[Boxbrownie]

What does the original look like?

[Romasato]

12 minutes ago, Boxbrownie said:

What does the original look like?

The whole exhaust comes as one part and costs ~1000GBP. Hence no surprise that Lexus dealers charge ~1400GBP for the replacement job if you calculate in the time of mechanic required to fit it (~160GBP/hr).

[Boxbrownie]

Quite surprised there is no "service part" components for the system...….even so that replacement looks very much the same although comprises of two small bricks rather than what looks like one large brick in the OEM cat, obviously will need welding into the system but at least it'll work.

[smitham]

On 9/24/2019 at 7:34 PM, Romasato said:

I go to this guy in Brentford: http://carreraworxgarage.co.uk/, Tony is really helpful and the quote he gave ~60 pounds to fit the new catalyst. I actually do the oil change and did over there the bigger servicing jobs like spark plug change etc. So far happy with the service.

Good shout thank you Romasato  - I went to Carreraworx and had it fitted it with a catman replacement cat.   I had this done and he charged 70 quid for the welding so total cost 350 to get back on the road.  The £70 also  included some extra patching up as my exhaust was blowing anyway.  Car now seems as good as new.  Have got a main dealer service and MOT coming up so this would be the acid test.

 

Tony from Carreraworx was a bit of a character and seems to be extremely knowledgeable and I heard him proudly boasting to the previous customer (BMW owner) that he could fix anything cheaper than main dealer and would charge 2k for his repair whereas BMW were asking for 6k!  think he might be my new favourite back street mechanic.  Luckily my Lexus seems to be bombproof even after 150k miles and 13 years ownership

[Romasato]

Just now, smitham said:

Good shout thank you Romasato  - I went to Carreraworx and had it fitted it with a catman replacement cat.   I had this done and he charged 70 quid for the welding so total cost 350 to get back on the road.  The £70 also  included some extra patching up as my exhaust was blowing anyway.  Car now seems as good as new.  Have got a main dealer service and MOT coming up so this would be the acid test.

 

Tony from Carreraworx was a bit of a character and seems to be extremely knowledgeable and I heard him proudly boasting to the previous customer (BMW owner) that he could fix anything cheaper than main dealer and would charge 2k for his repair whereas BMW were asking for 6k!  think he might be my new favourite back street mechanic.  Luckily my Lexus seems to be bombproof even after 150k miles and 13 years ownership

Glad you had it sorted out. And yes, Tony is a bit of character, but for the lower price compared to the dealerships I don't mind. He actually mentioned he had another same RX400h in today with the same problem when I called him to arrange an oil change :)

[Andy B]

As an owner of a NX300h, I am becoming increasingly concerned about this current spate of Cat thefts from hybrid cars. Not only due to the expense of getting a replacement of some type but also the inconvenience of having the car off the road whilst the replacement is sourced and fitted. 

My car is garaged overnight for at least 6 days a week so I'm hoping that this will protect it during those times but what about when I'm using it during the day?

This got me thinking as how best to avoid this happening to my car in the first place. As they say "prevention is better than cure".

To be clear, it's not something that is keeping me up at night (there are far worse things happening in the world at the moment) but I'd like to avoid the hassle if I can.

Not sure how effective the aforementioned "catlock" device is to be honest as even Toyota don't seem to have much faith in it.

What is the modus operandi of the thiefs? Are they constantly "kerb crawling" residential areas looking for hybrid cars parked on people's drives? Once they locate one, do they keep an eye on it's movements for a few days to ascertain the driver's travel habits and then pounce? Do they constantly monitor public car parks? Are most thefts at night or are they so brazen that they do it in full daylight?

I believe the Cat section that is stolen is the one located under the driver's seat meaning that the thief would need to get under the car from that side. If so, one way of making it harder for them would be to minimise the access from the offside of the car, e.g. park close to a wall in a multi-storey car park (although you'd need to leave enough room to actually get out of the car of course). If parallel parking in a residential street, park with the driver's side of the car furthest from the pavement. That way the thief would have to do his "work" close to the traffic flow (and we wouldn't want a car to run over his legs, would we?). Or is all the above too simplistic?

Would be interested to hear what others think about prevention.