New review

[ganzoom]

1 hour ago, DanD said:

Very relaxing, and a lot of fun when you want it to be.

This is why I love EVs. The 300H drivetrain gives you a tiny taste of that, but nothing close.

Cheap running costs even a Prius owner would be jealous of, less mechanical worries, go from poddling along to mad max mode as quickly as you can move your right foot.

Unless you turly need 200+ miles of non stop range all the time the EV drivetrain is a no brainer.

[i-s]

6 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Pure coincidence?? 

Porsche is now saying the Macan, one of their best selling products will now be pure electric within a 2 years. 

In my book VAG have done good, they have admitted their error with diesels and recognised no one really is going buy a V6/V8 petrol in mass in today's world and pushing their EV development at speed.

Lexus NEED to get their EVs to market ASAP. There is simply no comparison in the driving experience of the EV powertrain versus anything else. Lexus will loss their customers very quickly in a few years if they haven't got a product to compete with the EVs Porsche/Audi/Merc are all developing!!!

Yup. 

VAG's MEB development is very promising - they're doing a LOT of things right with it, and I'm seriously considering putting a deposit down for a Neo to replace my Leaf. 

In 2018 as a whole Lexus sold 76188 vehicles across the whole of europe. That's across 8 models (CT, IS, GS, LS, NX, RX, RC and LC). In 2019 Tesla will come very close to Lexus, if not in fact exceed their sales in Europe, and do so across only 3 models (S, 3, X). Q1 deliveries to europe for Tesla are heading north of 20k. 

If Tesla overtake Lexus this year, despite not offering the same level of quality, craftsmanship, fit and finish, range of models (especially lacking in the popular compact crossover space), etc then there's got to be a very serious message there for Lexus. 

2 hours ago, DanD said:

I agree: you have to drive an EV to really understand what it is like and what it's about. I had the opportunity to drive a Renault Zoe for 2 days and I absolutely loved it.

The instance response combined with the lack of noise... messes with your head and resets all that you thought you knew about driving a car.  Very relaxing, and a lot of fun when you want it to be.

I am seriously considering adding a Zoe to our collection, especially now that the recent battery pack upgrade seems to address range anxiety issues.

Yup

1 hour ago, ganzoom said:

This is why I love EVs. The 300H drivetrain gives you a tiny taste of that, but nothing close.

Cheap running costs even a Prius owner would be jealous of, less mechanical worries, go from poddling along to mad max mode as quickly as you can move your right foot.

Unless you turly need 200+ miles of non stop range all the time the EV drivetrain is a no brainer.

Yup.

People are WAY too hung up on the range issue. I've done a 150 mile journey in my 80-mile range Leaf with a grand total of 21 minutes of charging stops (of which I'd have spent 10 minutes stopped in an ICE vehicle anyway for comfort and coffee). In everyday use of the Leaf (driving to work, driving home, going to the shops, etc) then it's simply a non-issue. Now that genuine 300 mile range cars are here (Kona EV, e-Niro, etc) then it's simply not a real problem. 

I've said before, the GS will probably be our last ICE. In fact, it strongly lends itself to an EV conversion since it's already got the drivetrain (and someone in the USA used a GS450h transmission to convert a BMW 330Ci to EV). Simply strip out the ICE and fuel system, add a Li-Ion Battery pack and a bit of a controller and done. The GS drive is much more EV-like than other ICE vehicles, but still just doesn't match the instantaneous nature of an EV. 

I've driven a Model S 75D, and it has a very similar road-feel to the GS - very planted, solid, firm but not unrefined. The GS is distinctly superior in perceived quality, seat comfort and noise supression (road noise, wind noise). The Model S is WAY ahead in drivetrain performance, responsiveness and refinement. An EV GS would be epic. 

[wharfhouse]

The whole issue with EV (IMHO) is not the cars - I would gladly drive one - but the infrastructure. The cars must have around 300 miles of range - which many now do - after that for most people it is not an issue as they would have need to have stopped around that range anyway - on long journeys in older cars I used to only stop when refuelling (about every 350 miles) but with my IS 300h which will do nigh on 600 miles on a tankful I now have to stop before I need to refuel. So if I can do 300 miles in an EV before charging I could live with that. I would then need to take on a sensible, say 80%, charge in let's say in under 45 minutes - so the coffee/loo break time. Now - the question is a) would I get a charging point when I arrive or would I have to first wait half an hour or more for one to become free before even starting to charge (Tesla seems the best bet for available charging points at the moment); b) would the charging points be working and/or would I have the right plug and/or account/card - there are a lot of road tests being reported now where the whole sorry state of broken charges and plugs/accounts is a huge issue; c) will any overnight stop have charging available to have the car ready for another 300 miles the next day...? It's not range anxiety per-se it's the worry of no charges available and/or the chargers not working and/or if the car can actually connect to them. I appreciate it's chicken and egg but until the infrastructure can rival petrol - so the possibility of "filling" up reliably and quickly and paying using a debit/credit card with no other hassle - I think the Lexus hybrid approach is currently one of the best compromises. When the industry/government finally actually get their fingers out and actually walk-the-talk and put in the infrastructure (someone has to do this upfront - at least Tesla have made a decent fist of it but now of course it's all proprietary) I will gladly move to full EV.

[i-s]

22 minutes ago, wharfhouse said:

The whole issue with EV (IMHO) is not the cars - I would gladly drive one - but the infrastructure. The cars must have around 300 miles of range - which many now do - after that for most people it is not an issue as they would have need to have stopped around that range anyway - on long journeys in older cars I used to only stop when refuelling (about every 350 miles) but with my IS 300h which will do nigh on 600 miles on a tankful I now have to stop before I need to refuel. So if I can do 300 miles in an EV before charging I could live with that. I would then need to take on a sensible, say 80%, charge in let's say in under 45 minutes - so the coffee/loo break time. Now - the question is a) would I get a charging point when I arrive or would I have to first wait half an hour or more for one to become free before even starting to charge (Tesla seems the best bet for available charging points at the moment); b) would the charging points be working and/or would I have the right plug and/or account/card - there are a lot of road tests being reported now where the whole sorry state of broken charges and plugs/accounts is a huge issue; c) will any overnight stop have charging available to have the car ready for another 300 miles the next day...? It's not range anxiety per-se it's the worry of no charges available and/or the chargers not working and/or if the car can actually connect to them. I appreciate it's chicken and egg but until the infrastructure can rival petrol - so the possibility of "filling" up reliably and quickly and paying using a debit/credit card with no other hassle - I think the Lexus hybrid approach is currently one of the best compromises. When the industry/government finally actually get their fingers out and actually walk-the-talk and put in the infrastructure (someone has to do this upfront - at least Tesla have made a decent fist of it but now of course it's all proprietary) I will gladly move to full EV.

A very good and sensible post for someone who (I assume) doesn't have an EV (I mean by this that you've not fallen for the "but charging is rubbish" crap spouted by many, and have an accurate view of the situation). You're right with what you say. The situation is rapidly improving but sadly an app is regarded by the government as acceptable provision of "ad hoc" use - the ideal is contactless payment of course. 

Tesla and proprietary however.... not so much. That is true in so much as no other vehicles can use the Supercharger network (despite it being open for them to do so and Tesla making the patents available to all for free), but remember that Tesla vehicles can use other chargers - either through an adapter (for Chademo and a forthcoming CCS adapter for Model S and X) or natively in the case of the Model 3 - it can use CCS. In other words, the model 3 can use not only CCS networks (rapidly growing in mainland europe, particularly the likes of Ionity and Fastned) (and CCS are the ONLY chargers that can be used by various competitor vehicles, like Polestar 2, I-Pace, E-tron, etc) but it can also use the Supercharger network (where superchargers have been upgraded to dual-head). 

However, the real truth is that the overwhelming majority of people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day with any regularity. The average mileage per year has now dropped to just over 7000 miles (7134 in 2017). If that takes place entirely within the working week (ie the car doesn't get used at weekends - obviously not realistic) then over 260 working days a year the car averages less  than 27 miles per day. Many 2 car families would be perfectly well served with an EV as the second car - and that's exactly where we are, with the Leaf and the GS450h. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, i-s said:

A very good and sensible post for someone who (I assume) doesn't have an EV (I mean by this that you've not fallen for the "but charging is rubbish" crap spouted by many, and have an accurate view of the situation). You're right with what you say. The situation is rapidly improving but sadly an app is regarded by the government as acceptable provision of "ad hoc" use - the ideal is contactless payment of course. 

However, the real truth is that the overwhelming majority of people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day with any regularity. The average mileage per year has now dropped to just over 7000 miles (7134 in 2017). If that takes place entirely within the working week (ie the car doesn't get used at weekends - obviously not realistic) then over 260 working days a year the car averages less  than 27 miles per day. Many 2 car families would be perfectly well served with an EV as the second car - and that's exactly where we are, with the Leaf and the GS450h. 

I've only driven 1 EV but was very impressed. Wife loved it and really wants to upgrade. Real world issues however are having a charger fitted to side of house (smart meter required?), preparation for journey's, learning the different plugs, hoping they are in service/available when needed. But as you say, 50 weeks of the year will be charging at home and it's a very good point. One could simply rent a petrol car for holidays.

Lastly to upgrade to equivalent practicality is a 20k upgrade from current 10k car. And there in lies the problem - that 20k buys a lot of fuel. In fact nearly 150,000 miles worth. There is no improvement in toys/refinement/practicality. Although the pre-heat function is a brilliant addition in winter. 

If wanting to buy between two 30k cars and one was EV and one petrol it's a no brainer for most people - get the EV. But an upgrade to save money rarely works. So we will wait until replacement is due rather than chosen. However one could also argue a kia picanto serves most purposes over short distances for 9k. So I'd like to see some of the small cars like Aygo/Picanto maybe being 100mile range 10-12k EV's for getting into the market. 

[rayaans]

18 minutes ago, i-s said:

A very good and sensible post for someone who (I assume) doesn't have an EV (I mean by this that you've not fallen for the "but charging is rubbish" crap spouted by many, and have an accurate view of the situation). You're right with what you say. The situation is rapidly improving but sadly an app is regarded by the government as acceptable provision of "ad hoc" use - the ideal is contactless payment of course. 

Tesla and proprietary however.... not so much. That is true in so much as no other vehicles can use the Supercharger network (despite it being open for them to do so and Tesla making the patents available to all for free), but remember that Tesla vehicles can use other chargers - either through an adapter (for Chademo and a forthcoming CCS adapter for Model S and X) or natively in the case of the Model 3 - it can use CCS. In other words, the model 3 can use not only CCS networks (rapidly growing in mainland europe, particularly the likes of Ionity and Fastned) (and CCS are the ONLY chargers that can be used by various competitor vehicles, like Polestar 2, I-Pace, E-tron, etc) but it can also use the Supercharger network (where superchargers have been upgraded to dual-head). 

However, the real truth is that the overwhelming majority of people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day with any regularity. The average mileage per year has now dropped to just over 7000 miles (7134 in 2017). If that takes place entirely within the working week (ie the car doesn't get used at weekends - obviously not realistic) then over 260 working days a year the car averages less  than 27 miles per day. Many 2 car families would be perfectly well served with an EV as the second car - and that's exactly where we are, with the Leaf and the GS450h. 

I need an EV for my wife. She only does like 3-4k miles a year, very short journeys for the weekly shop, school runs etc. Ive got a huge garage to charge it in so that wouldn't be an issue.

The problem is, there is not a single premium EV less than £30k that doesn't look like an EV

I want an EV that looks like a normal car, not have dodgy eco wheels or skinny tyres or wheels tucked so far into the bodywork you have difficulty kerbing them!

I eagerly await the UX300e, hopefully its not £50k lol

I bought our then 2 year old IS300h F-Sport with 10k on the clock for £23k. I would happily spend up to £30k nowadays for a 2 year old premium EV but the fact is there just aren't any apart from the BMW I3 and that looks ridiculous IMO

[i-s]

Prices have gone silly lately, but it wasn't always so - A friend of mine bought his 63 plate Leaf Acenta off the forecourt, brand new, for £15k. I bought my 15 plate Leaf Tekna at 2 and a bit years old with 13k on the clock for £11k in November '17. Now, with 23k on the clock it's worth..... £11k. 

The new Leaf doesn't look like an EV - it looks like a bigger micra. The Kona and Niro electrics are not distinguishable for most people. The Zoe doesn't scream EV (and actually is a nice looking little car). There was a tendency to weird (Leafs like mine and the i3) where they did look weird but I think manufacturers are giving up on that. 

The VW Neo will be one to watch, as they're targeting a £22500 price point. However, it will look different to ICE cars because they're making use of the benefits of EV packaging - it will occupy similar space on the road to a Golf but offer a cabin and load space more akin to a Passat. This will become an industry wide trend - pushing the wheels out to the corners, longer wheelbases and a more "monospace" profile - the descendents of the Renault Avantime, Audi A2 and original Mercedes A-class. 

[wharfhouse]

1 hour ago, i-s said:

A very good and sensible post for someone who (I assume) doesn't have an EV (I mean by this that you've not fallen for the "but charging is rubbish" crap spouted by many, and have an accurate view of the situation). You're right with what you say. The situation is rapidly improving but sadly an app is regarded by the government as acceptable provision of "ad hoc" use - the ideal is contactless payment of course. 

Tesla and proprietary however.... not so much. That is true in so much as no other vehicles can use the Supercharger network (despite it being open for them to do so and Tesla making the patents available to all for free), but remember that Tesla vehicles can use other chargers - either through an adapter (for Chademo and a forthcoming CCS adapter for Model S and X) or natively in the case of the Model 3 - it can use CCS. In other words, the model 3 can use not only CCS networks (rapidly growing in mainland europe, particularly the likes of Ionity and Fastned) (and CCS are the ONLY chargers that can be used by various competitor vehicles, like Polestar 2, I-Pace, E-tron, etc) but it can also use the Supercharger network (where superchargers have been upgraded to dual-head). 

However, the real truth is that the overwhelming majority of people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day with any regularity. The average mileage per year has now dropped to just over 7000 miles (7134 in 2017). If that takes place entirely within the working week (ie the car doesn't get used at weekends - obviously not realistic) then over 260 working days a year the car averages less  than 27 miles per day. Many 2 car families would be perfectly well served with an EV as the second car - and that's exactly where we are, with the Leaf and the GS450h. 

Correct, I don't have an EV at the moment. I appreciate Teslas can charge using pretty much any charging station (subject to the problem of needing an account for many of providers though) but hadn't appreciated that they had made the patents available freely - a lost opportunity to create a worldwide standard went missing there I guess, but I suppose that was bound to happen unfortunately with a startup challenging the establishment. I'm doing about 16K miles a year these days. As I don't have any regular commute most of the journeys I do undertake are longer, though most within the reach of today's EVs one way but I would need some form of charging at the other end for the return journey. At the moment only one client I visit has put in charging points (the two directors have PHEVs). I usually stay in travel inn sort of places overnight (to keep costs down) and very, very few of those have a charging point. If the government is serious about EV use then they need to apply some pressure to have charging available at overnight hotels etc. Certainly if/once the infrastructure improves (number of available chargers, one plug standard with rapid charging and simple payment by bank card) then I would not have any concerns going EV. Our second car is a petrol Ford Fiesta that does perhaps 6K miles a year, if that, and so that might be the first to change however as the vast majority of charging would be at home. Mind you whether my wife (who uses that car mostly) would remember to plug it in each night and not be left without charge for work would be a concern. The concept of wireless (induction) charging would negate that worry and is another technology that would remove a real barrier for many.

[ganzoom]

5 hours ago, i-s said:

 An EV GS would be epic. 

I recon I could persuade my wife to swap her IS300H for an EV version with little work, but currently Lexus simply have nothing to offer on the EV front.

I cannot see the ES selling well without an PHEV/EV version. BIK tax of EVs is plummeting 2020, you have to really want a combustion car to pick on over an EV as a company car driver.

[First_Lexus]

Another review of the ES. Makes sense to me...'the most rational choice.' Indeed.

RAC Review

[wharfhouse]

13 minutes ago, First_Lexus said:

Another review of the ES. Makes sense to me...'the most rational choice.' Indeed.

RAC Review

Pity about the part "Plus as usual with a Lexus Synergy Drive powertrain, you must have it mated to a belt-driven CVT auto gearbox... " - Lexus really should do something to educate the media about the e-cvt - to call it belt driven just shows how little it is understood - the e-cvt is a marvel of engineering - yes perhaps a matter of subjectivity on whether people like it - but nevertheless a marvel! 

[Martin J]

Thought this was a pretty good review, for those of us for whom controllable oversteer on the limit isn't the most important criterion. Unfortunately, I'd failed up until now to take on board the fact that the ES doesn't have folding rear seats, which seems a strange omission. It seems Lexus have introduced additional bracing behind the rear seats to improve rigidity over the Avalon (which I think does have split-folding seats). While the quest for refinement and body stiffness is laudable, the lack of loading flexibility is a significant downside, and I'm surprised that additional reinforcement could not have been introduced to the body in this area without eliminating through-loading. I rejected the GS for this reason in 2014 and bought the just-launched NX instead, so a bit disappointed that the ES now looks less attractive as a replacement when the time comes.

[Linas.P]

On 2/27/2019 at 2:56 PM, i-s said:

However, the real truth is that the overwhelming majority of people don't drive hundreds of miles in a day with any regularity. The average mileage per year has now dropped to just over 7000 miles (7134 in 2017). If that takes place entirely within the working week (ie the car doesn't get used at weekends - obviously not realistic) then over 260 working days a year the car averages less  than 27 miles per day. Many 2 car families would be perfectly well served with an EV as the second car - and that's exactly where we are, with the Leaf and the GS450h. 

Generally, I agree... for 280 days a year I drive at most 50miles, the range of 300miles is plenty for me, but charging is a problem, even 45 minutes are the problem... ~I could live with 15 minutes brake, because that is how long it takes for 4 people to go to the loo and get another coffee, not a second more.

However, the biggest issue remains not the chargers in petrol stations (I am sure many will have fast charging points soon), but simple charging at home. Take for example London (kind of best example where EV makes most sense) - population of municipal area around 9 million people of whom 55% live in blocks of flats. That is a lot of people who have nearly no access to charge cars at home (say 5% will be able to charge somehow). Another 20% lives in terraced houses and if you know London - there will have very limited access to charging at home (say 25%), only the remaining population living in semi-detached and detached homes will have limited access to charge at home. All in all ~ 6.2million/70% of Londoners have nowhere to charge EV's.

So how this country (especially cities) are planning to "enable" EV's?

Does that make Lexus "self-charging hybrid" an ideal solution?! potentially, but the taxation and law clearly doesn't agree, further one needs to assume all those people do not care abotu driving dynamics and are happy with 9.2s 0-60.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Linas.P said:

because that is how long it takes for 4 people to go to the loo and get another coffee, not a second more.

 

Take for example London (kind of best example where EV makes most sense) - population of municipal area around 9 million people of whom 55% live in blocks of flats. That is a lot of people who have nearly no access to charge cars at home

I swear people do their weekly shop in our local BP garage 

 

As for your point about blocks of flats............hahahahahaha as if the govt care about them. 

[Guest]

In fact EV charging needs to be totally different from petrol stations. They need to be put next to shopping / entertainment areas. So you'll save on fuel and spend it on relieving boredom 

[wharfhouse]

13 minutes ago, Comedian said:

I swear people do their weekly shop in our local BP garage 

 

As for your point about blocks of flats............hahahahahaha as if the govt care about them. 

Not to mention the lethargic speed many of the baristas work in the motorway services areas and the length of the queues for coffee...!

[Linas.P]

And as for ES300h... don't get me wrong - it is great passenger car. Next time when I am going to get exec-cab to airport and ES300h comes to pick me up instead of typical Merc E-class with cardboard hard seats and rattly diesel... I will be very very happy.

Great car for cabbies, taxi drivers, exec. airport transfers etc.

[DanD]

On 3/1/2019 at 6:03 PM, Linas.P said:

And as for ES300h... don't get me wrong - it is great passenger car. Next time when I am going to get exec-cab to airport and ES300h comes to pick me up instead of typical Merc E-class with cardboard hard seats and rattly diesel... I will be very very happy.

Great car for cabbies, taxi drivers, exec. airport transfers etc.

There are loads of GS300h taxis in Paris... Some IS300h and I even saw an NX300h cab there last week.

[Linas.P]

6 hours ago, DanD said:

There are loads of GS300h taxis in Paris... Some IS300h and I even saw an NX300h cab there last week.

There are a lot of RX taxis in Geneva, not sure if it is 450h, but most likely it is. And it is fine... taxi doesn't really need great engine and loads of power, doesn't need RWD, doesn't need weight distribution etc... just loads of space in the back and in the boot. I guess Lexus being reliable helps as well. 

The reason it is not the case in UK, because UK goverment cares more about revenue and less about (not at all) pollution. Hence in UK there are no real benefit of choosing hybrid like Lexus and thus we don't see anyone taking advantage of it (because there is no advantage to take).

[DanD]

There are a lot of RX taxis in Geneva, not sure if it is 450h, but most likely it is. And it is fine... taxi doesn't really need great engine and loads of power, doesn't need RWD, doesn't need weight distribution etc... just loads of space in the back and in the boot. I guess Lexus being reliable helps as well. 
The reason it is not the case in UK, because UK goverment cares more about revenue and less about (not at all) pollution. Hence in UK there are no real benefit of choosing hybrid like Lexus and thus we don't see anyone taking advantage of it (because there is no advantage to take).

Yes it is fine... But I feel that it somehow devalues the brand. Aren't I a snob ;-)

Sent from my LG-H930 using Tapatalk

[Linas.P]

I think you right, if you want to find out the car which is really not exciting to drive... check what cars are used as a taxis.

Great car to carry passengers, but who would like to drive it themselves?  

[DanD]

I think you right, if you want to find out the car which is really not exciting to drive... check what cars are used as a taxis.

Great car to carry passengers, but who would like to drive it themselves?  

I can't agree with you there. I think you are confusing excitement (or lack of) with reliability and dependability.

Sent from my LG-H930 using Tapatalk

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, DanD said:

I can't agree with you there. I think you are confusing excitement (or lack of) with reliability and dependability.

Not really, reliable and dependable car doesn't make it exciting, in addition taxis have to be incredibly cheap to run to keep margins reasonable - that means junk engines which are just about enough to move 4 people and 4 bags, not overly sporty suspension which simply soldiers on instead of keeping you in the corner, fat tyres to keep in comfy and they are cheaper than low profile etc. etc. I am sure ES is reliable and dependable car... will be relatively cheap to run... so good choice as a taxi... not exciting car or good to drive however. 

[dutchie01]

Really? Why isnt it good to drive?

[Linas.P]

... I don't know... because of reasons. If you ever drive at speed, and throw the car into the corner at speed, there are many reason why 300h power is inadequate and FWD balance sucks. If you driving like the person in review at 20MPH... at that speed any car is "fine".

Really? Why it is good to drive?