New review

[rayaans]

Very positive all in all

[gdh300]

Amazing isn't it, get away from the UK motoring press, and Lexus get more favourable reviews. Or perhaps I don't mean "more favourable" (Bob has his criticisms), but rather "less dismissive". No, an ES isn't going to compete for the accolade of 'ultimate driving machine" as some self-proclaim, instead it offers something different. 

Cynically, you could also speculate if Lexus spent as much on magazine and website advertising as the VW group et al, then may be the reviews would be "more favourable"  😜

 

[Linas.P]

Favourable reviews you say... The guy summarised it in 30s - is this competitor for E-Class, BMW 5... frankly put - NO!.. and certainly it isn't..

The rest I agree, he is quite frank and honest about the cars... Nobody ever suggested ES is not going to be "comfortable", surely it is... build quality is generally very good in Lexus, no surprises there.

But does it "drive".... well clearly it doesn't... engine not refined, rattly .. as expected from 300h. He reached 80KM/H... and said well I wound not want to drive it at 200KM/H on autobahn - tells you all little bit about dynamics (or the lack of) on the car. I cannot imagine how many times better would be 350AWD, yes it would not sell because in UK we do not understand what the good car is, but it would be so much better car.. that junk rattle cannon 300h.

[rayaans]

33 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Favourable reviews you say... The guy summarised it in 30s - is this competitor for E-Class, BMW 5... frankly put - NO!.. and certainly it isn't..

The rest I agree, he is quite frank and honest about the cars... Nobody ever suggested ES is not going to be "comfortable", surely it is... build quality is generally very good in Lexus, no surprises there.

But does it "drive".... well clearly it doesn't... engine not refined, rattly .. as expected from 300h. He reached 80KM/H... and said well I wound not want to drive it at 200KM/H on autobahn - tells you all little bit about dynamics (or the lack of) on the car. I cannot imagine how many times better would be 350AWD, yes it would not sell because in UK we do not understand what the good car is, but it would be so much better car.. that junk rattle cannon 300h.

If you actually listened to the whole review instead of listening to the bits you want to hear, you'll see he actually said yes

[Linas.P]

You can take the way you like it, and your comment applies to yourself just as much. Which is fine and actually makes sense - I am looking for a review and wanting to know about car dynamics and driving... and I know it is bad at it, so that is what I see. I know already and I have never denied it is comfortable car - however for me that is not not enough. If you only looking for comfort and the car end there for you - surely ES does it and reviews confirms it. We both looking to the same review, but we focus on different thing which are important for us.

I have actually watched whole review and he does say YES, for very specific part of the test he says car is perfect - that is not to say overall it is competitive. When he goes over bumpy road indeed he states that car can compete with German cars in terms of comfort, he says it feels special and luxurious from inside... doing like 25KPH there. But that is not representative of how I would use the car on rural road like that... I would go 120KPH there and preferably with little bit sideways action .... until first tree gets in my way of course. So really  - "comfortable at walking pace" is not really a criteria in the car for me.

So this is my take on it - as from drivers perspective in the circumstances where speed and driver dynamics are irrelevant (bumpy straight road at 25KPH) ES feels as luxurious and comfortable as German rivals (and probably a little bit more). However, as a package it is not a competitive... and that is what he says from the outset.

In the end of the day my logic is simple... for Lexus it costs less to build GS350, then it does to build ES300h... for argument sake - lets say GS350 is 10% cheaper then ES300h... That would make it £31,000 car .. new... which would be amazing value for money. I know business doesn't work this was way and Lexus cannot sell cars too cheap otherwise they would not be seen as "Luxury" brand. But at the same time - one should not expect that I would be glad to buy effectively inferior car for more.

[dutchie01]

in the end of the day your logic is nonsense. You seem to live in a bubble completely not in touch with reality. The saloon segment is dying regardless of what engine you put in.

Guess howm many XJs Jaguar sold in 1998? - 14500. And last year just one thousand. And this is a car available with various engines. 

From an economical standpoint i can see Jaguar doing a Lexus, Replace the XJ and XF by 1 car only.

   

[Linas.P]

What you saying does... and doesn't make sense at the same time.

First of all GS issues in the UK and wider EU, has never been about saloon market. They simply could not offer "European enough saloon" which would be attractive, so issue is not the segment - issue is Lexus not having attractive offer... and where GS was unattractive, new ES is every bit less attractive. In US they have double advantage - they are market leading brand + they undersell European imports by decent margin as well. It maybe well be true for Jaguar, but BMW 5 series is still staple, Audi A6, MB E-Class are still holding well, Volvo is actually improving sale figures in the segment. So... kind of wrong.

Secondly, if it would be about streamlining, then why introduce new model in the range? It will take ~5 years to really phase out GS, because most of second hand cars are still sold via dealership network. It is little of independent trade going on with Lexus recently. If they wanted to drop GS, they could simply drop it without much impact to anything, why introduce ES?! ES only makes sense as replacement for both IS and GS is that would be the case - like in 90's choice between LS of ES and no splitting in the lower end.

Finally, Fine... replace IS and GS with a worthy car then. Call it ES or whatever you want to call it, replace IS and GS... And make it proper car... RWD, give it some 350h engine (preferably V form of some sort for smoothness) or whatever you call it which is plug-in hybrid so gets all the tax advantages, does 95MPG on paper and does 0-60 in say not too shabby 6.1s or whatever.... and I would not have any problem with it. Now the car is neither really that economical - who cares about economy will have some plug-in hybrid already, nor it is really good to drive, nor it is in any shape or form eco-friendly, nor is it very competitively priced to the level where it makes a difference.

What is the outstanding feature of Lexus ES300h?! Beyond being typical Lexus, that is well build and reliable? 

[Vince Donald]

I remember seeing Bob's review of the GS450 and he was raving about how quick the acceleration was.

I think his review is quite fair overall, I follow him on YouTube, his reviews are a breath of fresh air.

 

Vince

[Linas.P]

And just to add, Lexus positioning in US makes total sense:

IS/GS are there to offer alternative to "European sort of car", in place of BMW 3 and 5 series.. Values of which includes agile and sporty driving, RWD is must - the space and size secondary importance and compromises are made. IS cover small sedan segment, which amuricans doesn't really have (or didn't have before Japanese and European brands came along) and GS offers larger then average car, still European alternative for large sedan... again not really natural car of choice for amurican - larger, but still fast and driving focused.

ES is totally separate car almost separate brand to offer alternative to "American sort of car", and this is totally different car, in Europe we don't have such cars.. it is purely amurican produce by all aspects, fat loafy appearance, a lot of space inside with arm chairs in the front and full size sofa in the back, driving dynamics ~non-existent... but high lateral Gs are not good for average oversized amurican and overall philosophy of the car is beyond European comprehensions. In short ES segment doesn't really exist in EU and it is distinctly and unmistakably amurican:

If I go by Wiki - it says European equivalent for medium-size sedan is European "family car", i.e. along the lines of Passat, Mondeo, Mazda6 and a likes... but as we know that is not at all comparable. In fact European "family cars" are generally smaller then entry luxury segment of say IS, BMW 3 etc. Whereas these american behemoths are larger... so as far as purpose goes - yes they serve similar purpose i.e. common and popular car to take a family to the shops and back, affordable and practical... but the design is totally different.

That is why I see ES in it's current for, even after being redesigned... not really fitting anywhere in conventional European market.  

[Zotto]

Linas, Have you tried a new ES to confirm what you say? 😝

[mrfunex]

Quite a good, honest review, that. I’ve yet to drive one (I’m really looking forward to doing so), but it seems that the ES is just about the most boringly anonymous car out there - which is a good thing! Hugely reliable, fast enough, driving dynamics that aren’t going to surprise anyone; just a good all-round.... saloon car. 

I had a courtesy Camry on holiday a short while back, so I’d expect this to be fairly similar. Excusing the brand-oriented UK market, It’s no wonder they’re bought in such large numbers around the rest of the world.

[Mike246]

anonymous . . . the grille is about the size of a small block of flats!

Gone are the days when a Lexus pales into obscurity. You can see it coming from half a mile!

Yes, it was a good review.

[Linas.P]

 

10 hours ago, Zotto said:

Linas, Have you tried a new ES to confirm what you say? 😝

Jokes aside, next time I do service I will take one for as spin. But what do you expect from me - changing my opinion?! What is there to surprise me? I have said that RC/IS300h are sluggish and engine unrefined when pushed, on top of that this is FWD car which I have allergy for (it must be are real allergy)... 99.9% sure it is going to be along the lines - "yep... I said it... it is total junk".

[Habu]

Not sure why your obsessed with RWD, Linas? I don’t know about where you live but up here in Yorkshire I’m governed by either the speed of the road or the volume of traffic on it and I’m pretty sure at 60 or 70 mph I’m not discerning that the car is FWD.  Sure, wringing the cars neck around a track (yes, I do track days) I’d be wanting more grunt and AWD or RWD but driving normally within the volume of traffic we have on the roads, who cares, as it’s more than up to the job of being smooth, quiet and comfortable.  

Yes, we all get it - you hate it but please stop droning on.  

[dutchie01]

I currently drive a new Volvo V60 T5 with 250hp and 350Nm. It is FWD but no torque steer, nu pulling to the left or right under full throttle, no skating , just nothing...

I am telling this as technology has moved on over the years. if one hasnt driven a FWD car for a long time it could well be possible to adjust ones opinion. 

Before the Volvo i had an IS300H for 3 years and that car felt a step up to the IS250 i drove for 4 years. It was more refined, had faster acceleration and enough pull, a better chassis and was roomier with better consumption. So, i found the predecessor to the 250 a big improvement. I really would like to have a go in the ES to see if that generation is another step up. Judging by some reviews it could well be. Until i have driven one i leave the conclusions to people that know best!  

 

[Habu]

dutchie01, you're right.  Advancements in chassis and suspension development have come on leaps and bounds over the years.  Take your FWD 250hp Volvo, for example.  Also, if I'm not mistaken the Civic Type R is FWD and there is seriously nothing wrong with that.  I think too many people get hung up on RWD or a car having too little hp.  The ES, I believe, isn't designed to be a 5 Series slayer, its raison detra is to deliver a smooth, efficient drive in comfort with enough power to make reasonable progress.  I've driven the ES for 2 hours on a mix of dual carriageways, single carriage A roads and town driving and it's very nice.  Much smoother, quieter and more grunt than my 2018 NX - maybe not surprising - plus a real world mid 50's to the gallon on a car with only a 1000 miles on the clock and in cold weather, too.  For me, it's spot on (bar lack of CarPlay) and with enough gadgets to entertain me.  I'm absolutely fine with it not being for everyone for many, many reasons but some people just continue droning on - it's boring.  

[Linas.P]

@HabuI live where it says - in London, I still find the ways to take advantage of RWD balance, which is pretty much the only thing which separates low power (under 400-500hp) cars when it comes to driving wheels. Torque steer is not so much of the problem for some time now - still happens on some cheap and cheerful FWDs, but not so much in premium segment. Although - Volvo S90 T8... does torque steers ~apparently AWD-not.

Again just accelerating in straight line, there is hardly any difference between FWD and RWD, but do it on the bend and there is straight away massive difference - cannot think of more awful thing then understeer. As a matter of fact, Lexus fitting much wider (than necessary) rear tyres on IS250 does affect the balance as well, hence I went for 225/245 instead of 255 last time for more neutral balance and I would further go 235/245 just to make it more RWD like.

You making wrong assumptions that I was hiding under the rock for last decade. My last FWD car was 2012 Passat CC, so in fact 6 years newer car than my current IS. It has 2 major problems - rattly Turbo L4 and FWD... hated the car all the time during the ownership.

1 hour ago, Habu said:

people just continue droning on - it's boring.  

People keeps saying it is fine for car to be expensive, slow and FWD - it is boring as well.

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

...  IS300H ... more refined ...  had faster acceleration [than IS250]

Just factually incorrect, first can be argued depending on the speed and acceleration, but second is just wrong... not even sure why you saying it when you know for a fact it is wrong.

[ganzoom]

On 2/24/2019 at 7:12 PM, Linas.P said:

The that junk rattle cannon 300h.

Have not been near any diesel BMW/Merc/Audi recently?? If you think the 300h is unrefined what so make of the 320d etc with their 4 cylinder diesel units, which out sell any other engine choice BMW/Merc/Audi makes.

I also notice you live in London, sounds like to me you have the perfect needs/excuse to go EV, with ULEZ and Congestion charging not affecting EVs.

[dutchie01]

9 hours ago, Linas.P said:

just factually incorrect, first can be argued depending on the speed and acceleration, but second is just wrong... not even sure why you saying it when you know for a fact it is wrong.

The 300 is faster than the 250 in daily driving. i mainly drive on B roads and inner city/village traffic which implies lots of start stop traffic. The instant push of the electro motor from standstill makes the 300 one of the faster cars up to 40mph and acceleration is effortless, without drama, very refined. The 250 just cant keep up here as under 4000 rpm nobody is home. That car is more of a relaxed cruiser really drive it up to 70% and its great start pushing and it falls apart rapidly. Maybe a bit like the new ES in philosophy?

Oh, by the way the Volvo S90 T8 is all wheel drive and not Fwd.

 

[i-s]

55 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Oh, by the way the Volvo S90 T8 is all wheel drive and not Fwd.

Of a sort... 

The S90 T8 is a FWD car on an FWD platform, with an entirely separate (not mechanically connected) electric motor driving the rear wheels. Thus when operating in "EV" mode the T8 is RWD, when operating in "Save" (charging mode) it's entirely FWD and in "power" mode is primarily FWD (AWD but with significantly more power available at the front axle). 

The RX450h works similarly in that it is an FWD car/platform (Camry) with an EV motor on the rear axle, but the difference comes from the RX450h also having electric motors on the front. The ICE in the RX450h can not mechanically drive the rear wheels. 

FWD cars may have improved, but our Volvo V70 (2011 D5 Geartronic Polestar, 225bhp 470Nm) was horrific for torque-steer. There were a few really frightening occasions. I have no doubt that the new generation of volvos (S90/V90/etc) are a significant improvement with their MUCH more sophisticated suspension setups. However, we're much happier with the setup of our GS450h and probably would not choose an ES when it comes to replacing it - but the replacement for the GS will probably be EV and thus RWD/AWD anyway (since RWD will be the "default" for EVs, just as FWD is the "default" for most ICE vehicles). 

[Linas.P]

Torque steer is primarily eliminated by making drive shaft equal length and fitting LSD, for more premium performance oriented cars this is common now, however nothing is going to change FWD car tendency to understeer and if you entered the corner.

Volvo S90 T8 has 314HP and 400Nm going to front wheels and 78Hp ~"240Nm" going to rear, that doesn't exactly make it "balanced" AWD car for me. Balanced would be ~40/60 or 30/70 split and not 70/30...

12 hours ago, ganzoom said:

Have not been near any diesel BMW/Merc/Audi recently?? If you think the 300h is unrefined what so make of the 320d etc with their 4 cylinder diesel units, which out sell any other engine choice BMW/Merc/Audi makes.

I also notice you live in London, sounds like to me you have the perfect needs/excuse to go EV, with ULEZ and Congestion charging not affecting EVs.

Don't you think comparing hybrid with diesel is unfair? If anything hybrid should be "more refined" than straight petrol, but in case of 300h it is less. As all already knows I tend to over-saturate things (just my preference ok!) - but let's say "as a petrol engine it is unrefined". For the comparison I had BMW 320d 2018 for nearly a month last summer, brand new, picked it up with 600 miles and returned with 2800... standing outside of it - yes sounds like a tractor, from inside - there are much difference, not much noise at all.

As for London and EV - 100% WRONG. First of all, majority of people in London have no access to charging at home, which makes PHEV impractical and EV impossible - if you have home in London with driveway and suitable electrical installation - then lucky you, but it is not the case for majority of population. Secondly, I do not drive in congestion charge zone, because it is impossible to drive there between 7AM and 23PM... The closest I get is Tower hill (from the east), soon going to move office to Canary Wharf so will be even further away from central London. Finally, I sill do 40% of my driving on motorway and I often like to dive around the country and EU, so 1000-2000 miles journeys are fairly common for me - outright takes EV of the list.

9 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

The 300 is faster than the 250 in daily driving. i mainly drive on B roads and inner city/village traffic which implies lots of start stop traffic. The instant push of the electro motor from standstill makes the 300 one of the faster cars up to 40mph and acceleration is effortless, without drama, very refined. The 250 just cant keep up here as under 4000 rpm nobody is home.

Just not true, 300h is faster for first 2 meters maybe - IS250 has more hp and more torque at any given time from 1500RPM + there are no circumstances on earth where 300h is faster than IS250.... maybe to 10MPH, but even then barely. 4GR-FSE reaches top torque at 3800RPM and if you have ever bothered to look torque curve is very lineal on these engines, which means you get very smooth acceleration throughout. 2AR-FSE actually only reaches top torque at 4800RPM, there is a blip of torque from stand still, but it is literally nothing 50Nm perhaps - no enough to make any noticeable difference. IS300h is slower car at any speed and any conditions - if you disagree I am happy to review your sources. 

[ganzoom]

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Don't you think comparing hybrid with diesel is unfair? 

Why? The entire Toyota hybrid drivetrain was/is developed to compete with diesels.

Our IS300H replaced a diesel, and if you look at what previous cars people had, the vast majority drove diesels.

If you want sublime performance you go and buy a IS F/M3/RS4, but most people want economy and cheap running costs, and on those points the 300H engine does what its designed to do.

As for not wanting an EV, well all I can say is our 2.5 ton 6 seater EV SUV is as quick as a V8 petrol M3 on a B road, but costs me 2.5p per mile in fuel costs with £0 VED and next to no servicing costs. 

So if your after cheap running costs AND performance your be mad not to look at EVs.

[ganzoom]

Pure coincidence?? 

Porsche is now saying the Macan, one of their best selling products will now be pure electric within a 2 years. 

In my book VAG have done good, they have admitted their error with diesels and recognised no one really is going buy a V6/V8 petrol in mass in today's world and pushing their EV development at speed.

Lexus NEED to get their EVs to market ASAP. There is simply no comparison in the driving experience of the EV powertrain versus anything else. Lexus will loss their customers very quickly in a few years if they haven't got a product to compete with the EVs Porsche/Audi/Merc are all developing!!!

Or maybe Lexus can use the engine from a IS250, afterall according to some that is the best drivetrain ever made ;).

https://www.evo.co.uk/news/22349/confirmed-next-generation-porsche-macan-to-be-all-electric?_mout=1&utm_campaign=evo_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter

[DanD]

3 hours ago, ganzoom said:

There is simply no comparison in the driving experience of the EV powertrain versus anything else.

I agree: you have to drive an EV to really understand what it is like and what it's about. I had the opportunity to drive a Renault Zoe for 2 days and I absolutely loved it.

The instance response combined with the lack of noise... messes with your head and resets all that you thought you knew about driving a car.  Very relaxing, and a lot of fun when you want it to be.

I am seriously considering adding a Zoe to our collection, especially now that the recent Battery pack upgrade seems to address range anxiety issues.

[arkviz]

Yesterday I've driven new ES in top specs and these are my conclusions:

Seats are nicely stitched, but for my taste less comfortable. Car is bigger than GS, but i had less space behind a wheel in width. Some plastics inside car looks cheap. Wood decorative panels are plastic too. Ceiling upholstery is made of fabric. GS has nice white velvet. Comparing to my GS, it looks like materials are overall cheaper. Steering wheel was nice, but it has different layout, so i had problems using it ☺️ Infotainment had nicer graphics, but was totally not possible to use while driving. There was new front parking camera + panoramic top view. In the beginning i couldn't  recognize what I see on screen, because of strong fish eye camera distortion.

Engine at idle is slightly louder than GS (300h of course) and LESS REFINED than its older brother while driving. Slightly better it sounds at higher revs. Insulation is remarkably thinner than in the GS. Engine feels more powerful. It is probably thanks to help of electric motor, which is being used much more often than in GS. Moving centimeter by centimeter on parking lot is harder, as the pedals are somehow sharper. It is like driving 5km/h or 0.

Steering is harder, maybe there is less power steering. Car has relatively huge turning radius and. On the road it is typical FWD...

I was surprised there was Mark Levinson sign on center console. Sound system didn't performed so nice as my Pioneer in GS.

My final conclusion is quite negative. This car is step forward, however 2 steps downstairs. In terms "premiumness" I would rate it below both GS and IS.

On our market it is comparable to Skoda Superb, VW Passat, Arteon or Opel Insignia.