Start Up Gremlins

GavJ · January 3, 2019

Update...

I received a call from Lexus dealer today, they want to investigate the problem and will talk to the sales team regarding payment if it requires a new Battery... no commitment but I'm happy with this. They will collect & return the car for me so its booked in next week.

I don't have the data to do the Maths but, with a 70 ah Battery it should be fine for listening to a radio for 10 minutes? Coincidentally my sons car threw its drive belt over the holidays so no alternator... he was in Dundee so he started the car and drove it from Dundee to Glasgow (over 2hrs), with the lights on.... it ran no problem, also started the next day, and the next day as I drove it to the garage to get fixed... it has a 45 ah Battery!!!

Herbie · January 3, 2019

3 hours ago, GavJ said:

I don't have the data to do the Maths but, with a 70 ah battery it should be fine for listening to a radio for 10 minutes?

3 hours ago, GavJ said:

he was in Dundee so he started the car and drove it from Dundee to Glasgow (over 2hrs), with the lights on.... it ran no problem, also started the next day, and the next day as I drove it to the garage to get fixed... it has a 45 ah battery!!!

I respectfully draw your attention to one of my previous replies - the last reply on Page 1 of this topic.

You still seem to be expecting your car to act like a 'normal' car in respect of its Battery but it won't, it's a hybrid, and as such the electrical and Battery system is far from 'normal'.

KayCee · January 4, 2019

Gavin

ref listening to radio i do that regulary awaiing wife at hairdressers and never had a problem sat sometimes 45 min

but are you putting gear into nuetral then switching of engine then park that way everything switches off except radio but if you watch dvds i suspect it will use more power but 60 min on radio would be ok

and you said after run voltage only 12.5 i would say Battery is on way out.

Robert

GavJ · January 4, 2019

Herbie, i hear what you are saying... but what I cannot believe is that a company like Toyota who has been designing cars for decades, and will know that people sit in their cars listening to the radio etc, hence the accessory option on the start button, would not design a charging system and spec a battery that would cope with this. I would even go as far to say that they should have designed in a cut out which switches off all accessories if the Battery gets critically low and preserves enough power to start up the systems.

I do believe the issue with my car is a faulty Battery, and when the Battery is renewed, like Robert above, I will be able to sit for half an hour with the radio on without having starting problems. The car does not have a small Battery, its surprisingly large considering it doesn't have to start an engine, and although it doesn't have an alternator it can charge the hybrid Battery fairly quickly so there is a substantial supply for doing this.

I done a bit of digging on the on-line Lexus dashboard and found some history for my car. In its first year it only done 1700 miles! Sounds like it was sitting about for long stretches of time and this may have done for the Battery.

GavJ · January 10, 2019

OK, car was picked up today by Dealer... got a call a few hours later to say that the Battery had failed the test and would need replacement. They asked if i wanted to proceed and that they would contribute 50%of the cost as a good will gesture.

My bill was £163.00, ouch! I gave them the authority to proceed but explained that I would be likely to pursue this as I still believe that this should be covered by them as the Battery must have been on its way out when they PDI'd the car. I challenged the technician about what they actually do during the PDI and if they had a record of the test result for the Battery check at that time..... no real response.

So I have the folder with all the paperwork I got with the car and I remember seeing a checklist in there which had ticks beside items, the one i was looking for at the time was wheel alignment as this wasn't right when I got the car. I will have a look through and consider my response.....

Good news is that the Battery is reading 12.74 volts.

royoftherovers · January 10, 2019

If the faults arose within 6 months of purchase,then the gesture of goodwill and any paperwork they produce are both irrelevant.

The faults should be addressed at the cost to the Dealer.

Britprius · January 10, 2019

3 hours ago, GavJ said:

OK, car was picked up today by Dealer... got a call a few hours later to say that the battery had failed the test and would need replacement. They asked if i wanted to proceed and that they would contribute 50%of the cost as a good will gesture.

My bill was £163.00, ouch! I gave them the authority to proceed but explained that I would be likely to pursue this as I still believe that this should be covered by them as the battery must have been on its way out when they PDI'd the car. I challenged the technician about what they actually do during the PDI and if they had a record of the test result for the battery check at that time..... no real response.

So I have the folder with all the paperwork I got with the car and I remember seeing a checklist in there which had ticks beside items, the one i was looking for at the time was wheel alignment as this wasn't right when I got the car. I will have a look through and consider my response.....

Good news is that the battery is reading 12.74 volts.

Gavin the dealer has given you a 50% discount, and then charged you double what the Battery would cost to replace. Not a bad business to be in. How can a new Battery cost £326.

John.

Herbie · January 11, 2019

2 hours ago, Britprius said:

How can a new battery cost £326.

I believe they are if you buy them from Lexus.

I've never understood people buying items like batteries, tyres, wipers, exhausts and the like from main dealers because Lexus, Ford, Vauxhall et al don't make such items. All they do is buy them in from the people who do make them, slap a markup on and resell them.

royoftherovers · January 11, 2019

9 hours ago, Herbie said:

I believe they are if you buy them from Lexus.

I've never understood people buying items like batteries, tyres, wipers, exhausts and the like from main dealers because Lexus, Ford, Vauxhall et al don't make such items. All they do is buy them in from the people who do make them, slap a markup on and resell them.

Lexus Chester wanted to charge me approx £340 for a Battery for my 450h and tried to justify it by referring to the temperature "thingy" that was attached to it.

I did not take up their offer and recharged it myself. It is now working as it has always worked.

Britprius · January 11, 2019

4 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

Lexus Chester wanted to charge me approx £340 for a battery for my 450h and tried to justify it by referring to the temperature "thingy" that was attached to it.

I did not take up their offer and recharged it myself. It is now working as it has always worked.

The Battery temperature sensor can be removed from the OEM Battery "it just gently prizes out". It can then be fitted to the top of the new Battery by taping it on or better some hot melt glue to hold it in position. This is not a critical item it adjust "slightly" the charge voltage depending on Battery temperature. It could be replaced with a thermistor "a resistor that gets lower in resistance as it's temperature rises" of the correct value for pennies.
Correct size batteries with a capacity of around 70 ah are readily available with a four year guarantee for circa £70. For vehicles that have normal starter motors, and even vehicles with hybrid systems I would recommend going to a higher capacity Battery if there is room for fitting. For example the GS450H can easily accommodate a 120 ah Battery at circa £80.

john

royoftherovers · January 11, 2019

39 minutes ago, Britprius said:

The battery temperature sensor can be removed from the OEM battery "it just gently prizes out". It can then be fitted to the top of the new battery by taping it on or better some hot melt glue to hold it in position. This is not a critical item it adjust "slightly" the charge voltage depending on battery temperature. It could be replaced with a thermistor "a resistor that gets lower in resistance as it's temperature rises" of the correct value for pennies.
Correct size batteries with a capacity of around 70 ah are readily available with a four year guarantee for circa £70. For vehicles that have normal starter motors, and even vehicles with hybrid systems I would recommend going to a higher capacity battery if there is room for fitting. For example the GS450H can easily accommodate a 120 ah battery at circa £80.

john

Many thanks John. Your knowledge and experience is invaluable to us duffers.

Britprius · January 11, 2019

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Many thanks John. Your knowledge and experience is invaluable to us duffers.

I do not classify anyone as a "duffer". We all have an area of expertise, and that is what makes us all different. Hopefully being able to pass knowledge on to help others is what the forum is about.
I have been helped enormously by others on this forum, some that I have met, and others that I am unlikely to meet. I am also overwhelmed by the generosity of members with offers of physical help, and of passing on items at no cost that they have surplus to requirements.

John.

GavJ · January 11, 2019

I had checked about and the Lexus (Panasonic) Battery is £265 plus fitting from Lexus dealers, the alternative Bosch Battery I found from eurocarparts was £80, but I wasn't 100% sure if this was the correct Battery, and I would have to fit myself and sort out the temp sensor. Most on-line sites do not even list a Battery for this car!

My main concern with this is if another fault developed Lexus would instantly claim that the Battery I fitted was the problem and wouldn't honor my warranty, which has 8 months to run.

That aside I have written to Citizens advice and explained the position so haven't given up with reclaiming the cost back. If I can get some back I will be ok with that as I have ended up with a new Battery where in effect the cars Battery should be 1/2 way through its expected life.

GavJ · January 21, 2019

At last I have received a response from the Citizen's Advice Consumer Service, bit disappointing to see that it is a pretty general response even though they came back to me on two occasions looking for specific details, dates / costs / Dealers post Code!

Anyway, the response was quite long winded so I have copied two of the relevant paragraphs below..... The only grey area is the "expected wear & tear" statement..

I have been advised, if I wish to proceed, to correspond with them "in line with their complaints procedure" and if the dealer comes back and says that the Battery was worn out and this was to be expected the only option I have is to go to court but can ask them " if they would be willing to participate in mediation via a dispute body to avoid court action."

So.... probably worth sending a mail....., they also advised registered post!..... I'm thinking this will be a long winded process which will end up with them saying that I should reasonably expect the Battery to be half way through its life "wear and tear" and they have payed for half of the new Battery.

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Under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, all goods purchased from a trader must be of a 'satisfactory quality', this means that the goods should be free from faults, fit for purpose, safe and durable. If you consider the item defective and not through consumer misuse, damage or fair wear and tear, then depending on the circumstances, you may be able to pursue the trader for one of the following options:

‘Repair or replacement’

The consumer may be able to request a free repair or replacement from the trader. This should be provided within a reasonable timescale and without causing significant inconvenience. Generally, a trader would be entitled to offer the most cost-effective option to you, so if a repair or a replacement is impossible or disproportionate, then they may offer you an alternative remedy. If within the first six months, it would be trader’s responsibility to disprove any allegation of inherent fault with supporting evidence. If beyond six months, when alleging a fault, the consumer may need to disprove consumer misuse, damage or fair wear and tear.