Start Up Gremlins

[GavJ]

Oh Dear.... left the car for an hour today to do some shopping, came back, pressed the start button without touching the foot brake, just to get the radio on. Sat for 10 mins reading some messages on my phone.. then the radio went off? But the Map stayed up?

Tried pressing the start button with foot on brake, pedal was soft, lexus logo appeared on screen then the side screen radio appeared but with no text no radio.. Loads of lights on the dash, including parking brake flashing and text warning about the parking brake malfunctioning, engine management light on and pulsing? Seat didn't move into position and neither did steering wheel. Relays clicking somewhere behind / below the glove box. No engine, tried putting in to drive nothing... Sat for a while scratching my head but no change, got out locked car, opened it again tried again.... same. was struggling to see dash clearly as the wheel was turned and the power steering didn't operate.

Called Lexus recovery, talked to the guy for a bit, details etc, phone jumped onto hands free... he asked if I had pressed the brake so I switched off again and pressed the brake as far down as it would go with lots more pressure than normal. Car started but seat and steering wheel didn't move... Drove it a few miles and stopped and started it again.. all normal again.

Sounds like something to do with the parking brake, I have it on auto so that it goes on when I select park. Car still under warranty so will let Lexus know when I get next service as long as it doesn't do it again.... any ideas?

[steveledzep]

Sounds to me like the symptoms of an under performing 12v Battery.  Experienced most of the symptoms you describe in my RX just a few months ago.  New Battery sorted it.

[Herbie]

+ 1 for what Steve says, very likely to be the 12V Battery.

[GavJ]

Thanks Guys, I'll put a meter across it when I get the chance...... now is when I find out just what's covered under the warranty.

I recall asking the sales guy at time of purchase about the warranty.. you can image how good he made it sound 

[royoftherovers]

22 minutes ago, GavJ said:

Thanks Guys, I'll put a meter across it when I get the chance...... now is when I find out just what's covered under the warranty.

I recall asking the sales guy at time of purchase about the warranty.. you can image how good he made it sound 

If you have had the car for less than 6 months, then any Warranty is irrelevant as it is the Dealers Statutory Responsibility to repair/replace at his cost. 

[RgrWynne]

Had very similar problems in the past.......battery 

[GavJ]

Good point on the 6th months issue, picked the car up at the end of August so will contact the dealer during the hols

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, GavJ said:

Good point on the 6th months issue, picked the car up at the end of August so will contact the dealer during the hols

Do let us all know how you get on.

[GavJ]

Ok, grabbed my meter and had a look this morning, before touching anything, 12.0v, pushed start button without foot on brake, 11.76v, started engine, 13.9v

Not the best way to test a Battery, should really do a load test but I recon its about due for replacement, 3 1/2 yrs isn't great for a Battery though.... would expect 5?

Called Lexus Dealer, no one technical in today but they will call me tomorrow.

[st4]

Its a cheap thing to replace, I would just get on and fit it. 

[Herbie]

1 hour ago, GavJ said:

Ok, grabbed my meter and had a look this morning, before touching anything, 12.0v, pushed start button without foot on brake, 11.76v,

This chart may help:

[GavJ]

Quick update, got a call form the workshop @ Lexus dealer, they agree it sounds like the aux Battery. And no surprise... not covered under warranty.. They reckon it may just need a charge, apparently short runs etc aren't good for this Battery, I thought when I got rid of the diesel with a DPF I wouldn't have to go a long run occasionally to keep the car from faulting!

I did mention the 6 mths consumer rights point raised earlier... they claim that's 3 months!

Anyway, eurocarparts do one for £85 but I will wait till after the hols....

So.. I have an oxford oximiser Battery tender for my bike, any idea if I can hook this up to the Battery terminals without disconnecting the Battery?

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, GavJ said:

Quick update, got a call form the workshop @ Lexus dealer, they agree it sounds like the aux battery. And no surprise... not covered under warranty.. They reckon it may just need a charge, apparently short runs etc aren't good for this battery, I thought when I got rid of the diesel with a DPF I wouldn't have to go a long run occasionally to keep the car from faulting!

I did mention the 6 mths consumer rights point raised earlier... they claim that's 3 months!

Anyway, eurocarparts do one for £85 but I will wait till after the hols....

So.. I have an oxford oximiser battery tender for my bike, any idea if I can hook this up to the battery terminals without disconnecting the battery?

It is 6 months --you are  being conned Gavin. Ask Citizens Advice Bureau.

[GavJ]

John, I have been searching for this on line, cant see anything concrete, "Which" website states;

During the first six months after purchase, it's the responsibility of the seller to prove the fault wasn't there, not for you to prove that it was.

 You should expect the car to:

• be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
• meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
• be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).

Is there anything you can point me to and I will send the Dealer an e-mail....

 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, GavJ said:

John, I have been searching for this on line, cant see anything concrete, "Which" website states;

During the first six months after purchase, it's the responsibility of the seller to prove the fault wasn't there, not for you to prove that it was.

 You should expect the car to:

• be of satisfactory quality (taking into account its age and mileage)
• meet any description given to you when you were buying it (whether in the ad or in discussions prior to sale)
• be fit for purpose (in this case, to get you from A to B safely).

Is there anything you can point me to and I will send the Dealer an e-mail....

 

Check this out Gavin.

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/askhj/answer/101900/can-a-dealer-sell-a-car-without-offering-a-warranty-

[GavJ]

Thanks John, that's a bit clearer, it refers to Sale of Goods Act 1979, Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994, ideal... e-mail will be sent.... does state 6 months, initially only talks about new cars but further on it also mentions used.

I did go a long run today, checked Battery when I got back and it was 12.5v, but I didn't leave it with lights on etc first so I will check it cold tomorrow before I use it again.

[msdsx]

Latest legislation, which is also worth mentioning, is the Consumer Rights Act 2015, sections 19 and 24. Good luck.

[GavJ]

Latest;

Sent a mail to Lexus which was forwarded to the After Sales Manager, he called this morning but doesn't know about the consumers rights act etc ect will talk to his Boss on Monday

He advised that you shouldn't listen to the radio while sitting in the car as this flattens the Battery? I think I've bought a car from the 1970's

Guy was helpful but I cant believe his description of the charging system..

Hybrid Battery charges the Auxiliary Battery - ok

It only charges when the car is in EV mode and the car is driving, it doesn't charge while doing motorway speeds? My meter showed 13.9v when parked in the drive with the engine running?

If this is the case then my daily commute would be 6.5 miles (15 mins) with heated set, heated window, lights, wipers, heater, radio on, with the Battery being charged for 20 sec's as I pass through a small group of houses and 10 secs when I park in the car park.... I could do the maths and work out how much power would be used but I don't think I need to.

I'm praying that the Battery is faulty, otherwise I have bought an very expensive car that can't do my daily commute? 

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, GavJ said:

He advised that you shouldn't listen to the radio while sitting in the car as this flattens the battery? I think I've bought a car from the 1970's

Guy was helpful but I cant believe his description of the charging system..

Hybrid battery charges the Auxiliary battery - ok

It only charges when the car is in EV mode and the car is driving, it doesn't charge while doing motorway speeds? My meter showed 13.9v when parked in the drive with the engine running?

You shouldn't use an electrical system on a Toyota hybrid without the system being in 'Ready' mode otherwise you will flatten the aux Battery, or at best discharge it, which weakens it.

 

The aux Battery is always charged when the system is in 'Ready'. The petrol engine doesn't have to be running and the vehicle doesn't have to be in EV mode. Your meter showing 13.9 v when the engine is running (technically just in 'Ready' mode) shows the hybrid system is generating 14v and is providing charge to the aux Battery.

[royoftherovers]

2 hours ago, GavJ said:

Latest;

Sent a mail to Lexus which was forwarded to the After Sales Manager, he called this morning but doesn't know about the consumers rights act etc ect will talk to his Boss on Monday

He advised that you shouldn't listen to the radio while sitting in the car as this flattens the battery? I think I've bought a car from the 1970's

Guy was helpful but I cant believe his description of the charging system..

Hybrid battery charges the Auxiliary battery - ok

It only charges when the car is in EV mode and the car is driving, it doesn't charge while doing motorway speeds? My meter showed 13.9v when parked in the drive with the engine running?

If this is the case then my daily commute would be 6.5 miles (15 mins) with heated set, heated window, lights, wipers, heater, radio on, with the battery being charged for 20 sec's as I pass through a small group of houses and 10 secs when I park in the car park.... I could do the maths and work out how much power would be used but I don't think I need to.

I'm praying that the battery is faulty, otherwise I have bought an very expensive car that can't do my daily commute? 

Which Lexus Dealership is this?

It appears not to know much about its Statutory Responsibilities or the operation of the vehicle.

[Britprius]

2 hours ago, GavJ said:

Latest;

Sent a mail to Lexus which was forwarded to the After Sales Manager, he called this morning but doesn't know about the consumers rights act etc ect will talk to his Boss on Monday

He advised that you shouldn't listen to the radio while sitting in the car as this flattens the battery? I think I've bought a car from the 1970's

Guy was helpful but I cant believe his description of the charging system..

Hybrid battery charges the Auxiliary battery - ok

It only charges when the car is in EV mode and the car is driving, it doesn't charge while doing motorway speeds? My meter showed 13.9v when parked in the drive with the engine running?

If this is the case then my daily commute would be 6.5 miles (15 mins) with heated set, heated window, lights, wipers, heater, radio on, with the battery being charged for 20 sec's as I pass through a small group of houses and 10 secs when I park in the car park.... I could do the maths and work out how much power would be used but I don't think I need to.

I'm praying that the battery is faulty, otherwise I have bought an very expensive car that can't do my daily commute? 

The charging system on the Toyota/Lexus hybrids is a very capable system. It is capable of over 100 amps output to run the accessories and charge the 12 volt Battery. Unfortunately the OEM Battery does not respond well to being deep discharged, and seems to loose much of it's capacity as it ages.

This is the reason I did a post on fitting a higher capacity Battery to the GS450H.

I do not know if there is room in the GS300H to fit a larger Battery, but I would suggest you look into the possibility. I fitted a 110 AH Battery in place of the 70 AH OEM Battery. High cranking amps is not a requirement in a hybrid since the Battery is not used for turning over the engine, but a higher AH capacity is desirable.

Never use the car in ready mode, and neutral as in this mode the engine cannot start. Any other gear position is ok. The HV Battery will still be left to run the AC, accessories, and charge the 12 volt Battery. When the HV Battery gets discharged it cannot charge the 12 volt Battery, and if the HV Battery gets low enough on charge it will not start the engine meaning a transporter to the dealers for charging.

John.

 

 

[GavJ]

Thanks all, your descriptions of the charging is more logical. 

I challenged the dealer about the listening to the radio thing and he said that it was because it was just a small Battery... it does't look that small, 70 AH, and a replacement isn't cheap... I would expect a modern car to be capable of surviving 20 minutes listening to the radio and be able to recover that usage when the car is on. As before I'm pretty sure it just a duff Battery, I'm not going to run a car like this being afraid to use the heated screen / seats etc, A bigger Battery does sound like a logical upgrade. Had a decent run yesterday, nearly 70 miles round trip, just metered the Battery and its at 12.2v... 

Just checked europarts,£88 for Bosch Battery thinking i should buy it and send Lexus the bill (fat chance of them paying it).... any suggestions as to where I could get the battery checked and get a report?

 

 https://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/c/Lexus_GS+300h_2.5_2015/p/car-parts/electrical/car-electrics-and-car-lighting/car-battery/?444770697&1&5cd16f03255b591f6327ee7ca5a14c3e462cd9dc&000020 

[ColinBarber]

you should really fit an AGM Battery to a hybrid which have been the OEM type for Toyota for several years now as they withstand deep cycling better and give off less fumes - this is important if the Battery is located in the boot/cabin.

There shouldn't really be a need for a larger Battery, other 300h owners (either IS or GS) are complaining - I suspect you have one that has sat flat for a while and damaged it.

[GavJ]

Colin, I'm struggling to find an AGM Battery listed for the car?

Anyone out there bought one recently?

[Herbie]

On 12/29/2018 at 2:53 PM, GavJ said:

I challenged the dealer about the listening to the radio thing and he said that it was because it was just a small battery... it does't look that small, 70 AH, and a replacement isn't cheap... I would expect a modern car to be capable of surviving 20 minutes listening to the radio and be able to recover that usage when the car is on

In a 'normal' car, yes, but not necessarily a hybrid.

In a normal car the Battery is used to start the engine and then once the alternator is spinning, that runs all the car electrics and, if there's enough 'spare' capacity it will also charge the Battery. A normal starter motor will draw a current of at least 300A when cranking the engine, perhaps even more.

A hybrid car doesn't have a starter motor or an alternator. All the 12V Battery does is to power the entry/exit system and boots the computers that are needed to bring the hybrid system to the READY state - after that, the 288V (approx) traction Battery runs all the car electrics and also recharges the 12V Battery. As such, the 12V Battery doesn't have to be so big and beefy because, as you'll see from the photo below, the system is only drawing 15.32A from the 12V Battery in my RX450h to bring the car to the READY state, which is a hell of a lot less than upwards of 300A needed for a traditional starter motor.

If you sit in the car with the radio on, gear selector in P and the car in the READY state, the petrol engine will fire up as and when necessary to keep both batteries from getting too low. If you have your dashboard display showing your Battery level, you'll be very surprised at just how quickly it will deplete - probably about every 30 minutes my engine fires up. If, on the other hand you are listening to the radio with the orange light on the 'Power' button (the equivalent of the key turned to the ACC position rather than IGN position) then the engine will not fire up when needed and you'll probably need a jump start at best or even towing to the dealers to get them to sort it at worst.