Battery

[Pict]

Hello 

I have owned my GS450h Sport F for 3 years now, so my Battery is 6 years old. I was wondering if any older cars have had any Battery issues ? mines fine and the engine has only done 40,000 , I have heard Tesla battery's are only guaranteed for 8 years.. Though a cell for ours is £100 ? Has anyone had any dealings ?

[Farqui]

You seem to be referring to the big expensive traction Battery and not the regular 12v 'puter booter right?

Several folks I've spoken to have said the traction batteries are usually good for 130k/10 years+, so yours should golden for a while yet.

If it ain't broke, then don't fix it.

[Pict]

Yes the traction sorry I should have been maybe a bit more specific , oh yes I have no problem . I am just curious about the lithium Battery as the GS 450h came out in 2006 I believe and would be over the 10 year life span ,,

[Farqui]

The '06 didn't come with a lithium Battery, extract from documentation "Sealed, Nickel-Metal Hydride (NiMH) modules, 288-volt".

I've seen literature in 2013 that says Lexus weren't going to Li-on. Due to cost and how they handle overcharging (via heat).

When do you think they changed to Lithium?

[Zotto]

Lithium is a problem because of cost and also for the "rarity" of producers in the world. Also reliability is better in Nickel batteries. Besides, Toyota group is making research of other types of batteries, and chemical vectors like Hydrogen.

Even if the future will be for electric cars, the key issue is how to recharge batteries in a fast way; there is also a problem linked to petrol based global economy, and Hydrogen can be made easily with petrol. Besides, Hydrogen production can be easily controlled and taxed, while potentially electricity can be home made in many ways 😉

[i-s]

They still have not. 

Lexus Hybrids are still using Ni-MH batteries, as they are more appropriate to a hybrid. 

NiMH need less "looking after" than Li-Ion do, and are more rugged - NiMH doesn't need the same level of thermal management and safety gear. They are heavier and have lower volumetric energy density. The trade-off is worthwhile for a hybrid where you have ~2kWh of Battery capacity (the GS450h spec is 1872Wh for the gen 3. Not been able to find info for Gen 4, but if the same 6.5Ah cells are used then the gen 4 GS450h is the same, and the GS300h is 1495Wh).

In other words, the NiMH Battery may be ~50kg heavier than an equivalent Li-Ion, but you'll save 20kg of encapsulation, thermal management, etc and cost. The NiMH application in hybrids is very well-developed. 

A full-EV with NiMH would be too heavy and lose too much space to the batteries, and the encapsulation and thermal management overheads don't increase linearly with Battery size - they become less as the Battery gets bigger (in percentage terms). 

 

[Pict]

So what do Tesla's use ?  NiMH  or Li-Ion .. As there acceleration is phenomenal..and anyone know if Lexus are going to bring out a saloon that is purely Electric..

[i-s]

Tesla are Li-Ion. When you get up to that size the advantages of Li-Ion are huge. All I was saying is that NiMH is a good compromise for a hybrid. 

All EVs (and to some extent the hybrids) have phenomenal acceleration simply because of the nature of electric motor power delivery, and not losing acceleration for gearchanges. Around town my 80kW (109bhp) Nissan Leaf is distinctly more sprightly than my 225bhp diesel Volvo - the leaf will show it a clean pair of heels up to 40mph. Conversely, once into its stride the Volvo will destroy the leaf from 50-80mph. 

I've driven a Tesla S 75D, and that was epic - since I'm used to EV driving it wasn't weird for me, but the ride/handling, grip and general feel to the drivetrain was actually not far different from the GS450h. Much more solid and capable than the utterly prosaic Leaf  (with its macstruts and torsion beam suspension) or squirrely V70 (trying to put 470Nm through the front wheels with plenty of torque-steer)

I for one can't wait for Lexus to come out with a full electric. Marry up their attention to detail and decent suspension design with a decent EV drivetrain and it would be a force to be reckoned with. Sadly Toyota have their heads in the sand about EVs and are in danger of missing the boat. They and Honda both tied themselves too deeply to hydrogen (which is NOT going to happen). 

I think we'll see some rather shocking changes in the auto industry in the next few years as some really big players (Ford, PSA, GM, FCA) suddenly discover that they needed to have started EV development 5 years ago to stay in business. Ford is in retreat (they're pulling out of selling cars in the USA, and will only offer pickups and SUVs) rather than trying to compete. As EV pickup trucks (Rivian, Bollinger, Tesla) and SUVs (Audi, Jag, Merc, Tesla, Rivian) start eating into their market share in those markets they will be in trouble. 

I sincerely hope that Toyota does not make the same mistake. 

[malcolmw]

The LC500h has a Lithium Ion Battery as part of its hybrid system. This is the first Li-ion used by Lexus.

[Britprius]

19 hours ago, malcolmw said:

The LC500h has a Lithium Ion battery as part of its hybrid system. This is the first Li-ion used by Lexus.

Correct, but not by Toyota. A lithium Battery is used in the 7 seat Prius the non plug in version. So Toyota are obviously looking at changing Battery chemistry, but are not in a hurry to ditch NiMH

John.