Doing the Math - Hybrid or not.

superatticman · November 11, 2018

Trying to decide whether I might take the plunge with a hybrid model. Have done a fair amount of calculations as to motoring costs for the past 4 years.

Average mileage has been 7500 per annum.

Now I guess the initial reaction to that would be to pursue a one owner low miler 250. However I've worked out around 5000 miles of that is in heavy urban traffic. We're talking rush hour Greater London here. Lots of periods of stationary or crawling. I guess that does make a case for a hybrid stronger. Not sure whether I'd go for a 300 or 450 mind.

Are there any extra servicing costs associated with the hybrid models? Does seem price wise that they come in at around £4-5k higher than the 250.

I like the idea of a hybrid but am not willing to break the bank for one over the long term.

rayaans · November 11, 2018

33 minutes ago, superatticman said:

Trying to decide whether I might take the plunge with a hybrid model. Have done a fair amount of calculations as to motoring costs for the past 4 years.

Average mileage has been 7500 per annum.

Now I guess the initial reaction to that would be to pursue a one owner low miler 250. However I've worked out around 5000 miles of that is in heavy urban traffic. We're talking rush hour Greater London here. Lots of periods of stationary or crawling. I guess that does make a case for a hybrid stronger. Not sure whether I'd go for a 300 or 450 mind.

Are there any extra servicing costs associated with the hybrid models? Does seem price wise that they come in at around £4-5k higher than the 250.

I like the idea of a hybrid but am not willing to break the bank for one over the long term.

Depends on how long your keeping it. If you're doing short trips the hybrid doesnt make sense but it will also always retain higher value than the 250 will.

In stationary traffic in London, I would expect the 300h to be more than enough.

NemesisUK · November 11, 2018

2 hours ago, superatticman said:

Are there any extra servicing costs associated with the hybrid models? Does seem price wise that they come in at around £4-5k higher than the 250.

One might argue there is a slight reduction in service costs, in that one use regenerative braking a lot and this reduces the wear on discs and pads. My service tech was just saying he recently did a brake service on a IS300h, first pads in 99k miles...

For mainly urban driving I would say the hybrid is by far the better vehicle, both in economy and comfort. Sitting in traffic or inching forward in total silence. OK ignore the occasional groan from the brakes and in winter the ICE starting up to keep the cabin warm. The latter can be reduced by driving in ECO mode.

Lwerewolf · November 12, 2018

7 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

One might argue there is a slight reduction in service costs, in that one use regenerative braking a lot and this reduces the wear on discs and pads. My service tech was just saying he recently did a brake service on a IS300h, first pads in 99k miles...

For mainly urban driving I would say the hybrid is by far the better vehicle, both in economy and comfort. Sitting in traffic or inching forward in total silence. OK ignore the occasional groan from the brakes and in winter the ICE starting up to keep the cabin warm. The latter can be reduced by driving in ECO mode.

Drivetrain wear should be greatly reduced (engine, brakes, transmission), but the hybrid batteries tend to go at 10 years whatever the case is. Extended warranty should cover this though, and even if not... that's about the only major service it'll likely require. Not sure if anybody's reconditioning batteries on the 4th gen, given the different modules... just take the extended warranty :)

I guess we're talking about 4th-gen GS's here, so there's also the atkinson cycle engines in the hybrids (both 300 and 450h) which contribute significantly to the fuel economy - ~30% better than the previous gen should be attainable?

One thing about the GS250 - it's a direct injection only engine (3GR-FSE and 4GR-FSE) versus dual (direct & port) for the 2GR (3.5l) variants (FSE/FXE/FXS/FKS), and the 5l GSF. Nice to not have to worry about carbon build-up on the intake plenum/valves, plus the fail-safe... although I haven't read/heard of a lexus high pressure fuel pump failing yet.

As for the winter - heated seats & steering wheel + dual pane windows :)

superatticman · November 12, 2018

Thanks for this input. I guess its all down to me as to whether I like the way the Hybrid drives in 300h form. I guess if I want the real grin on face factor then a 450h comes into play.

I guess a 450h would have similar fuel consumption in heavy traffic as a 300h?

OldTrout · November 12, 2018

19 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

........... but the hybrid batteries tend to go at 10 years whatever the case is.

Do you have any evidence for this?

John

rayaans · November 12, 2018

1 hour ago, superatticman said:

Thanks for this input. I guess its all down to me as to whether I like the way the Hybrid drives in 300h form. I guess if I want the real grin on face factor then a 450h comes into play.

I guess a 450h would have similar fuel consumption in heavy traffic as a 300h?

Not really. The 450h would have half the efficiency of a 300h in almost all conditions.

Real life fuel economy on them is around 30-35mpg

Lwerewolf · November 13, 2018

2 hours ago, OldTrout said:

Do you have any evidence for this?

John

No concrete evidence, just lots of reading on toyota hybrids in general, prius chat/endless sphere/green hybrid/evworld/blogs of rebuilders/toyota rehydration patents/whatnot... I think I made it sound like they will go at 10 years - it's just that most of the failure cases that I've seen have happened around that age. On the other hand, I've seen all sorts of mileage, which is counter-intuitive to me - from what I understand, the cells loose capacity due to electrolyte evaporation (which I assume happens due to heat - hence why the modules in the middle of the pack tend to go first) and memory effect (which does exist in NiMh chemistry, even though it's better than NiCd). Both occur primarily during use. The latter can be reversed with deep cycling, the former can be reversed by rehydrating the modules. Rehydration, to my knowledge, has been done by very few people (at least documented) and only on prius form factor modules, but should be possible on other non-cylindrical cells (any toyota ni-mh pack). @Britprius should be able to clear this up, he has waaaay more knowledge and hands-on experience than me on this subject. Quite surprised that he hasn't posted in this thread yet 🙂

3 hours ago, rayaans said:

Not really. The 450h would have half the efficiency of a 300h in almost all conditions.

Real life fuel economy on them is around 30-35mpg

30-35mpg is for the 3rd gen GS hybrid, right? At least 30's what I average, mixed city/highway/mountainous village driving. The 4th gen's atkinson cycle engine is way better in this regard.

rich1068 · November 13, 2018

I understand that you're saying the batteries are more likely to fail around 10 years but firstly you could say that about just about anything and secondly articles on the internet do not facts make.

rayaans · November 13, 2018

13 hours ago, Lwerewolf said:

No concrete evidence, just lots of reading on toyota hybrids in general, prius chat/endless sphere/green hybrid/evworld/blogs of rebuilders/toyota rehydration patents/whatnot... I think I made it sound like they will go at 10 years - it's just that most of the failure cases that I've seen have happened around that age. On the other hand, I've seen all sorts of mileage, which is counter-intuitive to me - from what I understand, the cells loose capacity due to electrolyte evaporation (which I assume happens due to heat - hence why the modules in the middle of the pack tend to go first) and memory effect (which does exist in NiMh chemistry, even though it's better than NiCd). Both occur primarily during use. The latter can be reversed with deep cycling, the former can be reversed by rehydrating the modules. Rehydration, to my knowledge, has been done by very few people (at least documented) and only on prius form factor modules, but should be possible on other non-cylindrical cells (any toyota ni-mh pack). @Britprius should be able to clear this up, he has waaaay more knowledge and hands-on experience than me on this subject. Quite surprised that he hasn't posted in this thread yet 🙂

30-35mpg is for the 3rd gen GS hybrid, right? At least 30's what I average, mixed city/highway/mountainous village driving. The 4th gen's atkinson cycle engine is way better in this regard.

No both are around 30-35mpg.

I am yet to drive a 450h which does more than 35mpg in everyday driving unless driven at an extremely sedate pace.

route66 · November 13, 2018

On 11/12/2018 at 3:37 AM, Lwerewolf said:

the hybrid batteries tend to go at 10 years whatever the case is

Simply not true 😮

GavJ · November 13, 2018

"The Math"

savings in fuel - £10's

Savings in road tax £100's

Cost of ownership £1000's

Sneaking up behind padestrians in a car park - PRICELESS 😂😂😂

Glover · November 13, 2018

Has this site been taken over by the US forum:-) There is no such thing as 'math' in English; it's maths. Math is American English. And there is no such thing as British English; that's English. Here endeth the language lesson! Apologies Adam if you are from the other side of the pond!!

Now in respect of the actual question although I drive an RX I agree with all of the other comments. I've never driven a large engined petrol car but I've driven a hybrid for almost 30 months and a 3.5ltr hybrid is an absolutely amazing experience, smooth, powerful, quiet and, all things taken into account, amazingly economical. They are affected by the cold weather; a combination of more electricity sapping accessories being used and the batteries being less efficient in the cold can result in my mpg dropping to mid to high 20s; down from mid to high 30s in the summer. Regardless of that once you've driven a hybrid you'll be hooked!

Zotto · November 14, 2018

Every time someone asks me about the economical convenience of driving a Hybrid I answer that's it is not the right question: yes, probably you will spare some money, for a lot of reasons (some of them have been written above), but if the only purpose is sparing money, get a LPG or CNG car or even a diesel: hybrid drive is exceptional for many other reasons that are not only simple saving money, I am at my 3rd hybrid Lexus and I can't imagine to come back to a traditional vehicle, and at the moment pure electric has still the problem of fast recharge.

The explanation of why hybrid is different is well painted in this old Toyota commercial:

rich1068 · November 14, 2018

I like the hybrid because it takes the edge off running a 3.3ltr V6 SUV.

And the pedestrians in car parks thing.

Herbie · November 14, 2018

5 minutes ago, rich1068 said:

I like the hybrid because it takes the edge off running a 3.3ltr V6 SUV.

I agree, but it'll never compare to LPG for economy. Someone on here did a comparison of a petrol-only RX300 which returned 22.5p/mile, an RX400h (same body shell, size and shape) which came in at 19.5p/mile and his LPG RX300 was the best at about 13p/mile.

The OP doesn't do enough annual mileage to make the cost of conversion viable, but for anyone who does, LPG is the dog's danglies.

LexusIS300h · November 14, 2018

A hybrid petrol vehicle is a better option than a normal petrol or diesel model.

You will save in mpg. My 300h does about 45mpg real world with daily short trips. My son bought a Merc 350Cdi at around the same time and cries tears when he spends over £100 to fill it up after 400 miles. He also pays more than £500 a year more road tax just for the pleasure of being able to drive on our pot holed roads. His Merc is noisier and more polluting in both Nox and CO2 and cost more to insure.

Maintenance costs are a lot higher than a Lexus standard charge, as Merc dealers see customers as money machines.

So all in all, I would always choose a hybrid until electric vehicles are robust, do over 400 miles on a charge and you don’t have to queue at services to get a 15 minute top up.

I had a Prius for 10 years before the 300h so I was already sold on the concept. I now have a much better, quieter hybrid, with some performance abilities and at only a 10% reduction in fuel economy over the Prius. Should have got one of these ages ago but dithered.

superatticman · November 14, 2018

9 hours ago, LexusIS300h said:

You will save in mpg. My 300h does about 45mpg real world with daily short trips. My son bought a Merc 350Cdi at around the same time and cries tears when he spends over £100 to fill it up after 400 miles. He also pays more than £500 a year more road tax just for the pleasure of being able to drive on our pot holed roads. His Merc is noisier and more polluting in both Nox and CO2 and cost more to insure.

Maintenance costs are a lot higher than a Lexus standard charge, as Merc dealers see customers as money machines.

Lets say I've been a 'victim' of BMW Engineering the last 12 months. Am now up to £2000 worth of repair bills for a number of shoddy components failing. This is repairs and not servicing. Warped rocker cover gasket being the ultimate p*** take. This for a car which has not even reached 70k. Anyway apologies for moaning.

Gonna take a couple for a test drive this weekend. I don't half do a lot of 'crawling' in traffic so a hybrid may be justified. Saving that a lower miler one owner 250. All comes down to what I can do financially.

Apologies for the title of this thread. Am definitely the full English but I always though it was 'math'. Some things sound cool with an American twang!

Herbie · November 15, 2018

21 minutes ago, superatticman said:

Am definitely the full English but I always though it was 'math'. Some things sound cool with an American twang!

Trust me - they don't. It really grinds my gears to hear Americanisms like this.

Even worse is hearing someone in a pub/bakers/whatever saying, "Can I get a widget" NO, you cannot get a widget!

You can have a widget and the person behind the counter will get it for you, but you can't get it because you don't work there!

Sorry, rant over, now going to have a hot chocolate and calm down before bed 😁

XT5 · November 15, 2018

6 hours ago, Herbie said:

Trust me - they don't. It really grinds my gears to hear Americanisms like this.

Even worse is hearing someone in a pub/bakers/whatever saying, "Can I get a widget" NO, you cannot get a widget!

You can have a widget and the person behind the counter will get it for you, but you can't get it because you don't work there!

Sorry, rant over, now going to have a hot chocolate and calm down before bed 😁

Totally agree with you on this, also when my wife and I are addressed as "guys" ; she most definitely is not a guy and the difference is very obvious.....

Are you sure that "widget" isn't an Americanism......? 😂

LexusIS300h · November 15, 2018

26 minutes ago, XT5 said:

Are you sure that "widget" isn't an Americanism......? 😂

Just yanking your chain bro, just yanking your chain 😂😂😂😂

OldTrout · November 15, 2018

9 hours ago, Herbie said:

Trust me - they don't. It really grinds my gears to hear Americanisms like this.

Even worse is hearing someone in a pub/bakers/whatever saying, "Can I get a widget" NO, you cannot get a widget!

You can have a widget and the person behind the counter will get it for you, but you can't get it because you don't work there!

Sorry, rant over, now going to have a hot chocolate and calm down before bed 😁

it's what you get when you go to uni.