My new GS

[i-s]

£345 sounds like a good price for pads and discs and labour! I'd take it at that price. 

I've not seen any third-party discs for the GS450h (floating rotor), and genuine discs alone for a mk3 are almost £200 - Maybe there's £260 of parts there, in which case £85 to have them fitted is as much as you'll pay at any other garage, so I'd go with the dealer on this one. 

[Shahpor]

It is a good point regarding the discs.  I have seen some online, but they all appear solid, not floating.  Are there different types out there?

Either way, it is looking more likely I will have the brakes replaced by the dealer, especially considering the fact that the judder might still be there afterwards.  I am assuming if they fit the brakes themselves then they can rule them out of any further diagnostics they might need.  I had a similar situation with a clutch a few years ago and I was damn glad I got the dealer to fit the parts that time!

[i-s]

These appear right - in which case, snap your dealers hand off!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GENUINE-OEM-LEXUS-GS350-450h-200t-F-SPORT-2WD-FRONT-ROTOR-BRAKE-DISC-PAD/173592411113?fits=Model%3AGS450h|Make%3ALexus&hash=item286ae9fbe9:m:mAQDeIfC6tAvCABMDJeEC-g

[OldTrout]

Shahpor,

Will Sidcup Lexus not be paying this bill?

John

 

[i-s]

3 hours ago, Shahpor said:

It is a good point regarding the discs.  I have seen some online, but they all appear solid, not floating.  Are there different types out there?

So far as I know (and this may not be correct or may be incomplete or whatever)...

There are two different front disc setups and two different rear disc setups on the mk4 GS. 

Fronts

The standard front disc, used on most GS mk4 models, is 334mm x 30mm, ventilated (standard bell). 

The GS450h Premier and GS450h F-sport, however, have 356mm x 30mm ventilated floating rotors. 

Rears

The standard rear disc used on most GS mk4 models is 310mmx22mm ventilated (standard bell). 

The GS450h Luxury has 310x18mm rear discs. I have no clue why they bothered with this particular change. 

Calipers and pads

So far as I can tell all models use the same calipers and pads - of this I am not entirely 100% sure though, so if I'm wrong then please let me know!

[Shahpor]

Thanks for the information @i-s  I will calling the dealer tomorrow to get it booked in.  Although, if they use the same calipers then it does beg the question of whether you can fit the standard front discs instead of the floating ones? 

John - Since I have now done almost 4000 miles since I got it I think it is reasonable to assume that it is wear and tear, especially when you consider that it wasn't doing the juddering when I got it.

[OldTrout]

3 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

John - Since I have now done almost 4000 miles since I got it I think it is reasonable to assume that it is wear and tear, especially when you consider that it wasn't doing the juddering when I got it.

Understood.

John

[i-s]

16 minutes ago, Shahpor said:

Thanks for the information @i-s  I will calling the dealer tomorrow to get it booked in.  Although, if they use the same calipers then it does beg the question of whether you can fit the standard front discs instead of the floating ones? 

You probably could, if you got new caliper carriers (the bracket that holds the caliper to the knuckle) from a vehicle that uses the smaller disc. Then it would just be a matter of trying to insure a vehicle that has been deliberately modified to a lower-specification braking system than original... (read: good luck with that one). 

[Shahpor]

1 minute ago, i-s said:

You probably could, if you got new caliper carriers (the bracket that holds the caliper to the knuckle) from a vehicle that uses the smaller disc. Then it would just be a matter of trying to insure a vehicle that has been deliberately modified to a lower-specification braking system than original... (read: good luck with that one). 

Good point.

I suppose my hope now is that the dealer didn't misquote me since it is sounding like a good deal.

I can't even find any of the 356mm discs for sale in the UK..

[i-s]

It's not easy...

https://www.allcarpartsfast.co.uk/toyota/toyota-4351630061-disc-fr-lh/

https://www.allcarpartsfast.co.uk/toyota/toyota-4351230371-disc-fr/

https://www.allcarpartsfast.co.uk/lexus/lexus-4351630060-43516-30061/

I'm not totally 100% clear on the exact p/n required. 

But the prices that I'm seeing, both here and in the USA, say that £345 fitted from your dealer is excellent. 

[Shahpor]

Well, I have booked my car in to have its brakes done on Monday.

I spoke to the service desk this morning and they confirmed that it was the 356mm floating discs that they will be fitting.  He also verified that they would fit whatever was current on the car.

So, if this is indeed the case then it looks like good value for money at £345.

Lets see how it goes.

[Vlady]

I think it is a good value £345! Keep us updated Shahpor. Good luck!

[Shahpor]

10 hours ago, Vlady said:

I think it is a good value £345! Keep us updated Shahpor. Good luck!

Thanks Vlad

Well, I just got back and so far so good, although I didn't really get to try them properly so the real test will be tomorrow morning.

It does seem that there are times when the main dealer is good value for money.

By way of demonstration, I went from this:

To this:

And in case anyone is interested, this is how to costs were broken down:

 

So, unless anyone can say otherwise, if you have a Mk4 GS450h Premier or F Sport, it is cost effective to have the brakes replaced by a main dealer.

Now I just hope it has solved them problem...

 

 

[Shahpor]

In fact, armed with those part numbers, look what I found:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372528628607

[Vlady]

2 hours ago, Shahpor said:

In fact, armed with those part numbers, look what I found:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372528628607

We told you you had a great offer there! lol!

[Shahpor]

So, in way of a (hopefully) final update on this matter, the journey to work and back today was judder free.

I am not sure why the brakes warped in the first place, but it does appear that they were the culprit.

[Vlady]

11 hours ago, Shahpor said:

So, in way of a (hopefully) final update on this matter, the journey to work and back today was judder free.

I am not sure why the brakes warped in the first place, but it does appear that they were the culprit.

Were the discs/brakes thin or close to minimum limit? I can't see them overheat to warp so the only reasonably explanation they were well used.

[Farqui]

Do you know that the original disks were actually warped?

Were they checked for run out and once removed from the vehicle were they placed on a flat surface and seen/measured to be warped?

[i-s]

Sadly this term "warped" gets used and it isn't accurate. 

Standard car brake discs (ie not crazy money carbon ceramic) are made from cast iron. The reason that they are is that cast iron has very high thermal conductivity (much better than steels and especially stainless steel) as well as good thermal mass and the right physical properties (it's one of those rare cases where the cheap material is actually one of the best materials for the job). 

As such, once cast and machined they do not "warp" - it's not a vinyl record! 

What DOES happen is DTV - Disc Thickness Variation. When new, machined precisely, etc, then the disc is the same thickness all the way around. However, a number of things can cause that to change over time - for example, if you have left the car parked for a couple of weeks and then drive it, you'll often hear and feel an unevenness in the brakes because the area covered by the caliper/pad has not rusted evenly with the exposed areas of the disc. The pads scrape away the surface rust in just a few stops, but under some circumstances the unevenness can persist. 

This sort of unevenness can be made worse also by other causes - modern parking brakes that act on the disc rather than the older drum-in-disc  (or even drum) set up leave a pad strongly clamped to the disc for the whole time the vehicle is parked. Another cause (that my old mitsubishi galant with it's teeny-tiny undersized 256mm front discs suffered from) is if you get the brakes hot, and then come to a traffic light and sit on the brakes for a couple of minutes (as is typical in an automatic vehicle) then you also get uneven transference of pad frictional material to the disc (when hot some brake pad material transfers to the disc and the material rubs against itself giving high friction - the excess deposition caused by sitting on the brakes at the lights causes a higher friction area on the disc that feels like a pulsing/juddering during braking). 

If a brake disc is just starting to show this kind of behaviour it can sometimes be rescued by re-bedding the brakes - on a quiet A-road get the vehicle up to 60mph. Brake firmly down to ~15mph and repeat 5 times. After doing that (so the brakes are now warm), accelerate to 60mph and brake HARD to 5mph. Repeat 5 times. Then drive gently and try not to brake at all for 10-15 minutes to allow the brakes to cool. If you must come to a stop, DO NOT SIT ON THE BRAKES - use the parking brake (ideally not one that uses the service pads, but most do these days) or put the transmission in park and get off the brakes - you absolutely want to avoid high-temperature static pad-disc contact. 

After doing that your brake discs should have turned a darker grey or even a blue colour (and there's a good chance your front wheels will have turned black...) and they should feel smoother in operation (it's easy to feel at very low/maneuvering speeds that they are less effective than they were because they will be less "grabby") - this process can smooth out some DTV and frictional variances around the discs. 

There can also be metallurgical causes. I had one set of brake discs on my mitsubishi galant that suffered from serious cementite incursion - I'll find the pictures at some point. Cementite (Iron Carbide) is a very very very hard material that caused uneven wear and friction in the disc. This came from the casting of the discs, and nothing on or off the car could be done to save them - they were just bad discs. 

[Shahpor]

You are quite correct that I misspoke when I said 'warped' when in actuality I should have called it DTV, as mentioned in the excellent explanation above by @i-s

Lee, they didn't check the run out for the same reason as Vlad is asking - they were pretty much worn out already.  I am not sure of the disc thickness apart from they were lipped, but the pads had about 3mm left.

So, because they needed changing anyway, it was thought to be a good first step in trying to diagnose the problem since there was nothing to lose.

[Shahpor]

Hi all,

Just a quick update to say that the GS went in for its first service in my ownership today and came out with a clean bill of health.

The only advisory was that the rear tyres are at about 3mm, so will need replacing soon.  I have been quoted £120 + VAT each for Michelin's by the dealer.

So, after 8 months and 8000 trouble free miles, I can say that it is still just as brilliant as when I bought it.  I was actually surprised when I realised it had been this long, but the car is so effortless that it is understandable.

As usual, Lexus Reading were great from start to finish.  Michael and Sue were just as nice and helpful as ever, and how's this for care and attention:

When I checked the service book I saw that someone had put on a post it note to stop the ink smearing the opposite page before it had dried.  As you can see from the empty boxes, this isn't something all dealers consider.  It is a small thing, and I wouldn't have particularly minded if it had made a mark, but I was impressed that someone took the time to consider such a small thing.

[Farqui]

Great news, well done [emoji106]

[Shahpor]

Thanks Lee

It is nice to get a reminder once in a while how well Lexus do things.  It is easy to forget when you drive around day after day with such boring reliability.

[Farqui]

I know what you mean. Today mine clocked 323 miles in 3 countries, with 4 adults, luggage and seemingly endless nosh (back box). She never missed a beat [emoji106] No complaints from the passengers either, a surprise glass of Prosecco may have swayed the lady's [emoji1787]

I got nervous passing the spot where my rear tyre let go last November tho. I did thoroughly check all 4 corners a week before leaving this time tho.

[Vlady]

Shahpor hi, you are lucky to get your discs and pads done for that price, I am now considering to do mine front discs and pads as the vibration during braking drives me nuts! SO I called Glasgow Lexus and got the following prices, and this is just the parts:

Front Discs (pair) - £371.79!!!

Front Pads (set) - £86.44!!!

So I called Edinburgh Lexus and Front discs are more expensive, the pair comes is at £446!!! The pads will be the same price though.

All the prices above include 10% Lexusownership discount!

Rear Discs will be: £153.38 for a pair!

Did you know that Front discs are different on Premier compared to F-Sport? Apparently they just look different or so Lexus Edinburgh says!

How did you get that price you paid I have no idea! 🙂