Why f cars don’t sell well...

[rayaans]

A bit late to the party but I think it could also be due to lack of dealers. There aren't as many in the UK compared to German brands which seem to be in every city big or small. I mean Harrogate has bloody Audi! 

Also worth remembering that equivalent BMWs etc are cheaper to buy for a basic spec. Many of the m3s etc which aren't demos are woefully specified. 

Then there are the lack of demos. Each dealer only seems to get 1 at a time or maybe 2. But there always only seems to be 1 F car rolling on the road rather than sitting in the showroom. Last time I went to a BMW dealer it was pretty much when the M2 had come out and they had 3 demos and 2 being prepared for being demos. 

How many dealers currently have an RCF demo? 

[Linas.P]

That is true for demos, especially if you want extended one - as such I never got to try one on the road, because even if they have one RC- F on sale it is not "demo ready" as it is uninsured and they can pretty much only allow you to do circle around the block with trade plates... Buying cars as special as F that doesn't help.

And true about specs. People will always try to get their way the cheapest way possible and German cars are awfully spec'ed as you say, I have tried two BMWs M3 E92 and E93, neither of which had electrically folding mirrors... for example. Tiny thing, but one would simply never guess they will need to "man-up" and fold the mirrors with the hand on £60k car from 2010. And million other tiny things, which are just standard on Lexus.

When you look as used cars it seems straight away that M3's as much cheaper and there is massive choice compared with say IS-F, but after looking closely first 30 M3's are pretty much poverty line or in poor condition, when you actually get to the nice one they are not cheaper and most of the time more expensive then Lexus, but again people will buy their way in the cheapest way possible... If that way for owning HP car is basic M3 in questionable condition, most likely it will be it for £12k.

[Flytvr]

I think you can over complicate the analysis.

For me, not enough people know the F brand. Therefore Lexus don’t sell many cars. Knock on effect, you don’t see many on the roads. Viscous circle.

I also believe that the UK market (for F cars) is hardly a priority for Lexus.

Unlikely to get better.

Looking back at things, at the time of the F launch I was big into reading motoring articles and hence I knew about the ISF. These days it is highly likely the whole brand would be unknown to me.

[Stuno1]

Aye a friend asked if I had considered the isf when I was looking at m3’s. That’s how I found out and I thought I had my finger on the pulse of the car market!

[dutchie01]

Spot on doog!  An old friend of mine once told me he bought a Rolex watch and nothing else as everybody would recognize it as an expensive thing. there you go.

now here's a thought.. hypothetical but..  What if the F cars would be sold under a different name, like for instance, TOYOTA RCF that will then operate under a well marketed Toyota Racing Division or something. Tom what's your take on this?

[Stuno1]

6 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Spot on doog!  An old friend of mine once told me he bought a Rolex watch and nothing else as everybody would recognize it as an expensive thing. there you go.

now here's a thought.. hypothetical but..  What if the F cars would be sold under a different name, like for instance, TOYOTA RCF that will then operate under a well marketed Toyota Racing Division or something. Tom what's your take on this?

That would devalue the brand and car in my view. Toyota is a peg or few below Lexus so marketing the car under Toyota would surely be missing the point? It’s a luxury sports/gt car and as such needs a luxury/premium brand behind it. 

[DAW]

23 hours ago, tomRCFcarbon said:

Lexus does sell in quite respectable numbers as a niche brand. If we're talking why Lexus doesn't sell in BMW or MB numbers then I think there are loads of factors here. Below comes from personal experience, as I used to work for the marketing agency that did all Lexus UK marketing, and my best friend made the LC500 launch film so knows the advertising team quite well. Beyond that its just my opinion:

- We have a v.traditional and v.established car market in the UK where 'new' is not seen as a virtue
- UK consumers are some of the most brand conscious consumers in the world. Furthermore our peculiar flavour of brand-centricness (not a word!) is closely aligned to heritage and history
- For this reason no premium brand has made any kind of dent in the market...except at the mass/budget end of the market (Smart, Hyundai, Kia)
- Product development takes place in Japan with American and domestic tastes as the basis of the brief. The resulting products are therefore delivered as a fait accompli to the UK, and are therefore often a little alien looking to the average household
- The UK car market is one of the most valuable in Europe, therefore the established European brands guard it jealously
- Historically cars manufactured in Japan have been subject to a 10% import duty to the EU, wiping out much of the profit and money that could otherwise be spent on marketing/advertising
- Partly because of this and partly because of the influence of BMW/MB, Lexus haven't been able to break into the hire car market in Europe. Hiring a 'Premium' or 'Luxury' car in Europe will rarely result in you driving a car with an 'L' on the steering wheel. This is an enormous market and accounts for a large proportion of inventory coming out of Munich or Stuttgart, and how many business customers come to experience these cars
- The German car industry have made it their business to 'control' Dennis (Auto Express, Evo, Octane) and the other magazine publishers by block buying the most important advertising space in the magazines (inside front, outside back pages, etc)
- Lexus hasn't been good at 'playing the game' with the publishers and haven't been generous enough with the launch trips they organise. It is a bit of an industry joke that the reason the RCF didn't review well initially is that the journalists were 'only' flown economy to NYC for the launch, couldn't take spouses and were only put up for a weekend...whereas when Porsche (or MB or BMW) create any kind of iteration of their cars, they offer week long trips with WAG's to private estates and also allow journalists to jump waiting lists...interestingly Lexus fixed this for the LC500 and took the journalists away for a whole week, first class, with spouses and really showered them with hospitality - as a result reviews were a lot more generous
- Outside of GT racing recently Lexus hasn't been near the track and haven't understood the link in European minds between success in F1 and Premium...in Japan motor-racing at any level is used purely to show sporting prowess, nothing more
- Japanese products don't have much of a cache as premium products. Jackie Chan in the Cannonball Run didn't help. Nor did Infiniti. Nor does the newest Civic Type-R. Or Casio watches or anything else that the average UK Joe associates with Japan...rather than the reality which is: an attention to detail that borders on obsession, a natural affinity for craft, materials and engineering, a commitment to science being able to transcend art and a genuine culture of having petrol in the blood 

Nice post - very informative 

[tomRCFcarbon]

3 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

What if the F cars would be sold under a different name, like for instance, TOYOTA RCF that will then operate under a well marketed Toyota Racing Division or something. Tom what's your take on this?

I guess Toyota could’ve taken a different approach and never created Lexus...after all the brand was strong enough to shift MR2, Celica GT4’s and importantly for the point you are making the Supra in big numbers back in the day and so they could have conceivably taken the car they developed in the shape of the original LS and left the Toyota logo on the grille.

But sports cars and the UK were not the nuts they were trying to crack at the time - Luxury cars and the US were. And for that to work they needed a new brand and they were probably right. Now they could have gone the route of Acura/Honda and had a market specific brand in the US, but they didn't.

I have to say my original response was more about 'why don't people know or care about F-cars' rather than 'why don't Lexus sell more F-cars'...after all Lexus sell (quite quickly) all the inventory they bring to the UK. 

If my response was more focused on 'why don't Lexus sell more F-Cars' then we get into quite complicated territory:

- Firstly Lexus is not Lexus. The Lexus we all know and rely on is Lexus UK (actually its franchisees being co-ordinated by Lexus UK, but lets park that for now). Lexus UK is an independent entity to Lexus EU. Which is an independent entity to Lexus Japan (HQ). Lexus UK are supposed to work with Lexus EU and co-ordinate. But in reality they don't and historically the relationship has been patchy. Both Lexus EU and UK work to Japan. They receive their inventory from Japan. They receive the product from Japan and the brand guidelines from Japan. They have some autonomy in terms of marketing, advertising, dealership design and brochure-ware but that's about it.

- Secondly why do they have an F car at all? The reality is they are halo cars. They help shift the perception of the brand and access different audiences. But mostly they allow them to sell the 'F-Sport'. In the UK they sold ten times as many RC F-sports as any other car in the RC line and five times as many RC F-Sports as RCF's. The F-Sport is a higher margin product and they want to sell as many as they can.  

- Thirdly. They sell as many as the dealers allow them to sell. Lexus UK compile the order they make from Japan based on the sales projections they get from dealers 

- Fourthly. Trade tariffs and some of the other bits from my other post and probably lack of sunroofs or something

[ColinBarber]

1 hour ago, tomRCFcarbon said:

Both Lexus EU and UK work to Japan. They receive their inventory from Japan. They receive the product from Japan and the brand guidelines from Japan. They have some autonomy in terms of marketing, advertising, dealership design and brochure-ware but that's about it.

Wasn't always the case. The IS200 sport, GS sport etc. were designed and modified in Europe/UK from Toyota TTE and other European sourced parts (O.Z. wheels) - Lexus GB would order a standard GS300 for example and replace suspension, wheels, and body parts on import to convert it to a GS300 sport. That all stopped when TTE/Toyota Motorsport GmbH turned into the Formula 1 team.

Back then, Lexus didn't exist in Japan and Lexus models had the Toyota badge, with TRD developing performance parts for them. The F division occurred very soon after Lexus launched in Japan, in part because they can't really use the TRD name on a Lexus, even though TRD as still producing the parts, and also in part to compete with AMG, M division, RS in the US - Europe has never really been a consideration for Lexus designers except for the CT.

[DAW]

I remember back in my youth when most cars on the road were either Ford or Vauxhall & the likes of BMW/VW/Porsche were the niche car manufacturers (even then with a reputation for being expensive to run).   I also remember when the Japanese cars started showing the buying public that owning a car didn't have to mean putting up with unreliability, forcing all the manufacturer's to up their game.  All things Japanese at that point for me were synonomous with quality, be it electronic or otherwise, so naturally I bought a Supra over a Sierra Cosworth/911 back in 1992 and for similar reasons to owning an F today.  I had it for six years and it stayed in the family for a further 6 years without missing a beat.  Back then you were spoilt for choice if you wanted a Japanese sports car until most of them disappeared after the recession in the 90's and the subsequent vacuum was filled by the German performance cars.  People need to be reminded that there are alternatives to the Germans (albeit pretty limited at present) and to that end Lexus should continue developing ever better F models and keep plugging away with the marketing, product placement (movies/TV) and promotion of their presence/successes in the GT racing series.  Hopefully the new Supra will also help further raise the profile of Japanese performance cars in the public's consciousness, although additional performance models from Mazda, Nissan etc would certainly help!!

Now the Germans are the mainstream manufacturer's and have become the norm, I can't help wondering if there might be a shift at some point toward people wanting something different;  in a similar way that peoples aspirations changed towards owning German rather than the likes of a Ford or Vauxhall.  I'm sure a big part of the interest I see in the RCF is due to it being different from the usual German stuff people see every day - its styling clearly resonates with people.  I have never experienced this level of positive interest in any car I have ever owned previously and  people constantly stop to tell me what a great looking car it is, and ask about it.  Last week even had a guy stop his car & park up next to me just to ask about it - maybe the shift has already started?

Obviously it makes sense to want Lexus to be more successful in the UK as it would certainly be helpful to have a greater choice of dealers & a larger supply of parts etc.  However part of me also thinks it would be a shame for them to become too mainstream.  I like the fact that with the "F" I am part of a pretty exclusive group of enthusiasts who drive very rare cars and who have made their ownership decision based on a cars merits not its badge.  I'm not convinced I really want that to change too much as the pros seem to out way the cons IMHO!!  

The one thing I would be happy to see change is the way our cars are being reviewed with this inbuilt bias which has already been discussed.  It would be refreshing to know that a review of an F, or any other car for that matter, had been written impartially without the influence of any other agenda, but I suspect that's not going to happen any time soon!!  It's a shame because I used to be an avid reader of car mags, but owning a Lexus opened my eyes to this issue, and as result I have little interest in them these days.

[Big Rat]

@DAW Another cracking post and I agree with you wholeheartedly 👍

🐀

[ColinBarber]

30 minutes ago, DAW said:

Now the Germans are the mainstream manufacturer's and have become the norm, I can't help wondering if there might be a shift at some point toward people wanting something different;  in a similar way that peoples aspirations changed towards owning German rather than the likes of a Ford or Vauxhall. 

Not only people wanting something different but with the 10% import tax coming to an end over the next few years there will be more of a level playing field. That advantage could even shift the other way with electric vehicles as the Japanese manufactures have easier access to large Battery manufacturers such as Panasonic, Sanyo, NEC, Yuasa etc.

[doog442]

1 hour ago, DAW said:

Now the Germans are the mainstream manufacturer's and have become the norm, I can't help wondering if there might be a shift at some point toward people wanting something different;  in a similar way that peoples aspirations changed towards owning German rather than the likes of a Ford or Vauxhall.  I'm sure a big part of the interest I see in the RCF is due to it being different from the usual German stuff people see every day - its styling clearly resonates with people.  I have never experienced this level of positive interest in any car I have ever owned previously and  people constantly stop to tell me what a great looking car it is, and ask about it.  Last week even had a guy stop his car & park up next to me just to ask about it - maybe the shift has already started?

 

My local Audi garage has a Gym ...lol

https://www.pooleaudi.co.uk/owners-area/poole-audi-gym

My Lexus dealership has a coffee machine but they even struggle with that. They are good people though.

The local Audi and BMW dealerships are dynamic, I hate to say it they are so far ahead of Lexus in marketing and selling cars its embarrassing. These places are absolutely buzzing. 

 

That said if you stuck an RCF in one of those showrooms people would be all over it like a rash. I really cannot get my head around Lexus in this country. 

[steveledzep]

Wrong badge on the RCF for those showrooms.  Another offputting factor to the punters is that the indicators work faultlessly, they're used to intermittent at best ☺️.

[08ISF]

Late to the party again...

I think the issue is purely image and because Lexus only aim to sell a couple of hundred of each F model, they don't care.

Let's face it, boasting to your mates down the pub that you have a V8 Lexus, is not going to produce the same envy as saying you have an M3/M5/C63/RS4/5/6 etc (delete as appropriate)

Lexus have no competition history and the Alan Partridge thing from way back doesn't help level the playing field. It is perhaps a sad reflection, that courtesy of various marketing departments and the media, we as a nation have become totally label obsessed, so excellent engineering and reliability doesn't cut it amongst people looking to buy a new car. The cars come into their own later on in their life  when costs of ownership start to play a bigger part in the decision and buyers realise that owning a used German supersaloon is going to be a very expensive experience. Of course someone has to buy a new one for it to become a used buy later on. Just my opinion.

[FTBBCVoodoo]

Seen some further weakspots with F cars and the RCF in particular.

I was a passenger in @Big Rats gorgeous RCF on Monday and didn't experience this but...  

There appears to be a fundamental problem with the RCF in particular.

For instance the keyless entry can fail meaning you can get locked out of your car...

Once in the car there is a distinct lack of space...

If you get out of the car you have to stretch to prevent cramps...

These issues are clearly illustrated below...

[MNMJ]

16 hours ago, DAW said:

However part of me also thinks it would be a shame for them to become too mainstream.  I like the fact that with the "F" I am part of a pretty exclusive group of enthusiasts who drive very rare cars and who have made their ownership decision based on a cars merits not its badge.  I'm not convinced I really want that to change too much as the pros seem to out way the cons IMHO!!  

Very much this

[Guest]

On 9/18/2018 at 12:57 PM, tomRCFcarbon said:

- Outside of GT racing recently Lexus hasn't been near the track and haven't understood the link in European minds between success in F1 and Premium...in Japan motor-racing at any level is used purely to show sporting prowess, nothing more
 

Which is odd as Japanese companies (inc Yamaha who are involved with Toyota) know all too well how racing success sells motorcycles in Europe - the saying being win on Sunday, sell on Monday. 

Maybe Toyota are still sulking from their foray into F1 - they did get back into endurance recently and it seems the new boss is pushing motorport more so things could change. Yaris going great in World Rally too. Toyota might just be about to shake of that dull image.

[tomRCFcarbon]

We knew this already...but 3 Lexus in the top 10!? 

6 with Toyota!!!

3 VAG in bottom 10 and Audi is the worst. 

[Flytvr]

55 minutes ago, tomRCFcarbon said:

We knew this already...but 3 Lexus in the top 10!? 

6 with Toyota!!!

3 VAG in bottom 10 and Audi is the worst. 

Lexus, Volvo and Honda in the top 10. I can ask for no more!

[Womble72]

Badge snobbery, that’s all, as a kid we mainly had Audi 80 sports, BMWs tenfold, these were the days when BMW Fairfield normally had about 8-10 used cars and a showroom of about 3 cars, they were exclusive BACK THEN but the snobbery aspect of this is very much still apparent. People don’t like change, BMW, Merc and Audi all reduced their build quality to be more affordable to the everyday person, Lexus came along to attempt to steel some of that market, Toyota knew that they couldn’t get in under the Toyota badge, people still don’t like change and continue to buy German “was” good vehicles.

i like the rarity of the brand it reminds me of my childhood when the being “not the norm” felt special. Lol

being on my 4th Lexus and knowing what little I know I wouldn’t buy anything BUT Japanese, we’ve 1 Lexus, 2 Toyota and the boy has a Civic type R. His second Honda......there is also the point that whilst we, America and other countries spent money on weaponry the two class leaders were also the ones that were banned from developing their arsenal. Hence their progress in the vehicle industry.

 

[Stuno1]

26 minutes ago, Womble72 said:

Badge snobbery, that’s all, as a kid we mainly had Audi 80 sports, BMWs tenfold, these were the days when BMW Fairfield normally had about 8-10 used cars and a showroom of about 3 cars, they were exclusive BACK THEN but the snobbery aspect of this is very much still apparent. People don’t like change, BMW, Merc and Audi all reduced their build quality to be more affordable to the everyday person, Lexus came along to attempt to steel some of that market, Toyota knew that they couldn’t get in under the Toyota badge, people still don’t like change and continue to buy German “was” good vehicles.

i like the rarity of the brand it reminds me of my childhood when the being “not the norm” felt special. Lol

being on my 4th Lexus and knowing what little I know I wouldn’t buy anything BUT Japanese, we’ve 1 Lexus, 2 Toyota and the boy has a Civic type R. His second Honda......there is also the point that whilst we, America and other countries spent money on weaponry the two class leaders were also the ones that were banned from developing their arsenal. Hence their progress in the vehicle industry.

 

Agreed I have lost count of the times I have had to tell people German cars are not the most reliable and have not been for a very long time. I then have to show them the liars if most reliable and unreliable cars. Had this very chat with my dad last night. 

 

I am not loyal to any brand be that cars, watches etc BUT I am starting to be with Lexus. I had my isf, I am buying an rcf next year and my wife would like an nx. Amazing cars and I love the Lexus brand and all it stands for.

[Linas.P]

9 hours ago, FTBBCVoodoo said:

Rolled trough the pictures and hoped for one without the skirt (dirty me)... what a disappointment... 

And what about thous wheels - have the lady punctured all the tyres at once and runs 4 spares? 

[DAW]

54 minutes ago, Stuno1 said:

Agreed I have lost count of the times I have had to tell people German cars are not the most reliable and have not been for a very long time. I then have to show them the liars if most reliable and unreliable cars. Had this very chat with my dad last night. 

 

I am not loyal to any brand be that cars, watches etc BUT I am starting to be with Lexus. I had my isf, I am buying an rcf next year and my wife would like an nx. Amazing cars and I love the Lexus brand and all it stands for.

Spot on - totally agree with all you said👍🏻