Together in Electric Dreams

[tomRCFcarbon]

How do I close a thread?

 

I thought it would be funny, it wasn’t.

 

Sorry everyone. 

[FTBBCVoodoo]

@tomRCFcarbon embrace it.

You have the hottest thread on the forum at the moment 😉

 

[JonP]

@tomRCFcarbon

going back to topic somewhat and thinking about my own circumstances, I've decided I like my IS-F, so I'm going to run that for another 100k and then swap it for a nutso ULEV when they finally have enough range and a reasonable enough price. There is still way too much compromise on the Battery front for me in the current vehicles and I reckon it's going to be 5-10 years before that is improved enough for me to consider replacing the F.

That said, when my wife's Jazz needs replacing in 3 years time, that may well be a hybrid of some form.

[Linas.P]

16 hours ago, doog442 said:

More people would use public transport if they could. How many more lanes do you want on the M25 😉

Says who? any sources, evidence? Personal opinion? I agree public transport currently does not work, because the goal of current public transport is to be "for profit business", not to provide public service for public.

M25 doesn't need more lane, 3-4 lanes are as efficient as it gets, however efficiency of the road can be improved, more efficient slip roads, less bottlenecks (from 4 lanes into 3 lanes), improved free Dartford crossing at full speed, increased speeds 90MPH+, better lane management (ban for heavy transport to use 3-4th lane), better driver education, lane discipline. Making roads wider is not necessary improvement or needed.

@JonP - yes but hybrid is not EV, hybrids doesn't not require any additional infrastructure etc. so that is bit different.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

 I agree public transport currently does not work, because the goal of current public transport is to be "for profit business", not to provide public service for public.

 

That........is a very good point.

 

[doog442]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Says who? any sources, evidence? Personal opinion? I agree public transport currently does not work, because the goal of current public transport is to be "for profit business", not to provide public service for public.

M25 doesn't need more lane, 3-4 lanes are as efficient as it gets, however efficiency of the road can be improved, more efficient slip roads, less bottlenecks (from 4 lanes into 3 lanes), improved free Dartford crossing at full speed, increased speeds 90MPH+, better lane management (ban for heavy transport to use 3-4th lane), better driver education, lane discipline. Making roads wider is not necessary improvement or needed.

 

Says me ! Thats based on having a large family, a large circle of friends (obviously not as large as yours) having worked in several large organisations and following a large football team all over the country using the countries expensive rail network.In other words general life experience. 

Public transport does actually work in my experience and many  people would rather take a train into Manchester Piccadilly or Liverpool from Crewe, get off and walk to the shops or work  than drive into a city and try and find a car park. Did I say car park ? Have you ever parked in a city close to where people actually want to go , the prices are extortionate , in short supply and that will not change, electric vehicles or not.

We cannot magic up parking facilities. Park and ride..heard of that ? Yes you drive and then take a ride into the city using either public or private transport. 

Private organisations need to make a profit for their shareholders, I thought you supported that sort of  stuff 😉. If you want the Government to go back to running the trains then what chance do you give them when you are suggesting they are allegedly incapable of sorting out the road system because they cant channel the traffic from a four lane motorway onto a single carriageway into the next local town.

    

[Guest]

Damn..... That's a good point too.



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[Martin F]

45 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Public transport does actually work in my experience

Hmmm I think many thousands of commuters would disagree with you there. 

People who think trains work (agreed a subset of public transport) I find generally do not have to rely on them daily during peak times. Also using public transport in other countries is a real eye opener. 

 

[doog442]

11 minutes ago, Martin F said:

Hmmm I think many thousands of commuters would disagree with you there. 

People who think trains work (agreed a subset of public transport) I find generally do not have to rely on them daily during peak times. Also using public transport in other countries is a real eye opener. 

 

Absolutely agree and am aware of that. My point is actually the concept of public transport against that of the motor vehicle for the future. I previously said I would rather see funding aimed at improving public transport (and subsiding it).  

Again public transport abroad is impressive in places but I dont use it in the rush hour so cannot compare.

[Linas.P]

23 minutes ago, Martin F said:

Also using public transport in other countries is a real eye opener. 

Yep... try commies China... 

@doog442 I am in favour of companies making money... however you cannot take communist idea of everything public and succesfully run it in capitalist for profit world.

Either you are in commies country and use everything public or you in capitalist country running everything private... otherwise it is hypocrisy. 

Let me explain (call it manspalining) how subsidies and funding of public transport works in UK... you sell publicly owned entity (say London Bus Company)which was built in decades using public funds for nothing to private conglomerate (say Arriva), then Arriva makes profit providing essential public service and charging people who funded the company in the first place, then when you get complaints about crap service you subsidise it by pumping money into that private company (2.2bn over 10 years) which already makes millions (~300million of profit every year over last 10 years)... and you still have same crap service because all the subsidies goes into shareholders accounts in Geneva, Isle of Man and Cayman islands. 

Public funds can only "subsidise" publicly owned company providing public services. If company is privately owned, then it should never be publicly subsidised, it should be subsidised privately. 

secondly, why concept of public transport is the future? It might be your future.. not mine! What is better about it, then nice, comfortable, fast personal transport? 

[Womble72]

33 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Yep... try commies China... 

@doog442 I am in favour of companies making money... however you cannot take communist idea of everything public and succesfully run it in capitalist for profit world.

Either you are in commies country and use everything public or you in capitalist country running everything private... otherwise it is hypocrisy. 

Let me explain (call it manspalining) how subsidies and funding of public transport works in UK... you sell publicly owned entity (say London Bus Company)which was built in decades using public funds for nothing to private conglomerate (say Arriva), then Arriva makes profit providing essential public service and charging people who funded the company in the first place, then when you get complaints about crap service you subsidise it by pumping money into that private company (2.2bn over 10 years) which already makes millions (~300million of profit every year over last 10 years)... and you still have same crap service because all the subsidies goes into shareholders accounts in Geneva, Isle of Man and Cayman islands. 

Public funds can only "subsidise" publicly owned company providing public services. If company is privately owned, then it should never be publicly subsidised, it should be subsidised privately. 

secondly, why concept of public transport is the future? It might be your future.. not mine! What is better about it, then nice, comfortable, fast personal transport? 

I’m a Senior Technician on London Underground, we’re a NON profit organisation, we as a company have to deal with an infrastructure that was NEVER designed to carry the amount of people this country houses, the roads were never built to take the volumes of traffic either, the icing on the cake are people like the London mayor, a man that is a complete moron, fare freeze until 2020 🤔....budgets cut across the board, H&S comprised to MAINLY the work force,......then there’s the public, they expect a train every couple of minutes, there isn’t the funding or the capability to improve something so complex within such small peramiters,  no mater how good public transport would or could be people will always moan, I think you’ll find there isn’t any public transport system worldwide that works to perfection.......personally I think anyone that is Office based should use public transport, leave the roads for those that need them, trades, maintenance and delivery. The roads moved better before flexi time for office workers.

[Linas.P]

@Womble72 a lot of good points... with some I agree with some others I don't ... 

London Underground is a relic, literally piece of history - it is not suitable for public transportation.. probably more suitable as a "Museum of Transportation of 19th  Century". So you are correct - it was never designed for current use and unsuitable. What needs to be done - we need choose some iconic stations and routes we want to preserve, then plant massive explosives to the rest of it and we blow-it all up, then we need to build proper modern system with realistic capacity in-design. You say it cannot be done?! Beijing and Shanghai built more metro miles in last 3 years then entire London Metro and for fraction of the cost.

The public expect train every minutes... yes... why?! because it bloody costs fortune... if I would pay the fare I would expect not only the train every minute, but aswell blanket, pillow and bl****** to be included in that price. The price of London "public" (privately owned conglomerates) transport is nonsensical. Why do you think cheapest airlines always have the newest air planes? Because new infrastructure is so much cheaper to maintain. London underground in simple terms is unsustainably obsolete, hence it cost fortune to maintain and commuter have to foot the bill.

No matter how good public transport people always going to moan... because people don't want to use it.. they are forced to. It is like saying "no matter how good prison is, prisoners are always going to moan"... Yes that is the perspective.. you never going to like things you are forced to use. 

Next point - I just disagree, I pay same VED as anyone else, why would anyone can feel entitled to tell me what type of transport I should use or not to use and when?

Finally, Government collects £36bn from road users every year in direct motoring related taxes, only spend ~£4bn, but the figure includes subsidies for public transport, nonsense like cycling lanes, pavements etc. and just little bit of maintenance. In short £4bn are not really used for improvements. My point - maybe they should spend the money they collect back on the roads and make them suitable for the times.... 

[Guest]

.....what about the aqueducts?

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[doog442]

11 hours ago, Linas.P said:

@Womble72

Next point - I just disagree, I pay same VED as anyone else, why would anyone can feel entitled to tell me what type of transport I should use or not to use and when?

Finally, Government collects £36bn from road users every year in direct motoring related taxes, only spend ~£4bn, but the figure includes subsidies for public transport, nonsense like cycling lanes, pavements etc. and just little bit of maintenance. In short £4bn are not really used for improvements. My point - maybe they should spend the money they collect back on the roads and make them suitable for the times.... 

Spending money on 'nonsensical 'cycle lanes and pavements ?  There comes a point in numerous threads Linas when it becomes obvious you're on a massive wind up .

Your VED is just as likely to go on pavements, as it is supporting homeless mothers from Liverpool .Take your'e faux wrath out on them as well 😉

 

[Tfp]

Just a quick note to lighten the thread.

I'm looking forward to driving the Rcf tomorrow after a month of sorn. 

Not sure I could ever feel the same about an electric car.

[JonP]

1 hour ago, Tfp said:

Just a quick note to lighten the thread.

I'm looking forward to driving the Rcf tomorrow after a month of sorn. 

Not sure I could ever feel the same about an electric car.

I agree, which is why I'm hanging on to the F for a few years. 

[MNMJ]

15 hours ago, Linas.P said:

then plant massive explosives to the rest of it and we blow-it all up,

Don't we spend a fortune each year trying to prevent people doing exactly that?

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, MNMJ said:

Don't we spend a fortune each year trying to prevent people doing exactly that?

Yep, double saving if we don't. Though we need more controlled way and preferably not when commuters are around.

4 hours ago, doog442 said:

Your VED is just as likely to go on pavements, as it is supporting homeless mothers from Liverpool .Take your'e faux wrath out on them as well 😉

Yes you right VED just goes into same pot.. but that is where lies the issue. We all pay general taxation, you, me everyone living in UK. However, some groups are paying more e.g. motorists, smokers, drinkers. That government decides to put it in same pot is government choice and issue, not the people paying for it.

Don't forget government just works for us to redistribute the money in the way we want, they have no rights to decide themselves. As such me, you, taxpayers are the ones who decide where the money should go.

Here you are right, we both know that this is general taxation, but if you check majority of motorist would not know that and are paying VED in good will with assumption that this is something for the roads improvements and maintenance... general public would be outraged if they would find out only £4bn were spent from £36bn raised.

Finally, none of that would be the problem if the infrastructure would be fit for purpose. Honestly, could not care less where the money comes from and where it is spent as long as roads are derivable (which they are not), secondly - not only that government double taxes motorists, government as well blames same motorist for all the problems real and imaginable... and that is where it gets ugly. So not only I am paying effectively general taxation twice... I am as well being told that I should not use the roads because the infrastructure isn't there to support me. This naturally leads into what I am saying above  - "if you want to blame me for something, then don't take my money... if you took my money then make sure you spend it accordingly and shut-up!"

[st4]

I'd rather the Government spent that on improving and subsidising public transport in all areas, including rural areas. This is the real future.
 

The problem with public transport is the public.

Personal transport will always be wanted and seen as a premium option compared to shared transport-not just for its convenience but because sharing space with strangers just isn’t as nice as travelling by yourself


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[st4]

More people would use public transport if they could. How many more lanes do you want on the M25 [emoji6] I would rather they complete a better and cheaper rail network than new and wider roads. I live in  the SW and the overwhelming majority would rather take a train to London  than drive and then find a place to park but prices stop them...ditto Birmingham, Manchester and Liverpool. 

As this thread is about electric vehicles add on charging points to the equation.

The country will not build more roads, ask swampy. Public transport is the future.

 

 

What’s needed in cities is more car parking and multi stories close to the centres but not in them to take the cars, banning buses as they take up too much room. People could walk the rest. Provide free parking in cities with purpose built under and overground 50 story car parks and people wouldn’t take the train. Particular in acid and knife attack London. If you go to Madrid-drive in - I have twice and you find lots of underground car parks bang in the central. No buses, no hassle just drive and arrive and a short walk to wherever you want to go

 

I’d like to see the 25 widened to 10 lanes each carriage way, speed limits abolished on motorways entirely (as most of them are good for 150mph plus) and tunnels built in certain cities to take the extra traffic.

 

More road building is good and right.

 

 

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[st4]

Again public transport abroad is impressive in places but I dont use it in the rush hour so cannot compare.

 

Like where - Switzerland- it’s not. It’s awful. Zermat is “car free” which means you have to take a train. It’s crowded, cramped and reminds me what’s wrong with public transport and what is good and right about driving.

 

The US - the most productive country in the world has the right approach. Less public transport more driving.

 

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[Linas.P]

Americans have share of problems with driving as well...

However, for me the whole argument public transport vs. driving vs. cycling is a bit pointless. All of them are just modes of transport, what people prefer goverment must enable. They collect the taxes and they should use those taxes to provide infrastructure - there is no way around it. If 70% of people prefer driving, means goverment duty is to provide infrastructure for 70% driving - people choose what they want to do, goverment is there just to facilitate it.

Government can take position to advise, maybe experiment a little bit, gauge opinion, but they have no-right to dictate the terms, force anything or control majority behaviour. 

[FTBBCVoodoo]

Japan has amazing buses and trains.  They are full of hot women who blokes can play with.

Well...  That's how it appears to some of the videos I have seen recently 😉

[Ala Larj]

16 minutes ago, FTBBCVoodoo said:

Japan has amazing buses and trains.  They are full of hot women who blokes can play with.

Well...  That's how it appears to some of the videos I have seen recently 😉

Too much information!

[Linas.P]

@FTBBCVoodoo - you just being inappropriate now... !

I was very impressed with Chinese trains, but that is because public transport is suitable for communist country.. it just fits the culture there and the way it is managed there is correct for the purpose. Trains there are to provide public service and not to make profit. First class "bullet train" from Shanghai to Beijing (800miles) costs £56 and the price never changes, again because they not trying to make profit. Bloody wagon between London to Edinburgh (400 miles) from 18th century cost £300 and doesn't even have air conditioning... and takes twice as long to travel half a distance .... what are you kidding?!

The best example is when bus or train from London to the airport cost more then the flight 1000 miles away to another country... I mean explain that!

That is sort of seat you get in China, including slippers and dinner, coffee, tea, cakes and beer: