Which F (if any) will be a future classic?

Flytvr · August 24, 2018

Right - for fun, put your expertise to the test and document what you think will happen in the future.

I've excluded the LF-A as it is already a classic.

Linas.P · August 24, 2018

I haven't voted - because... What you define as future classic?

Any car which sold only ~200 units going to be locally in UK a "future classic". Now what the classic car means? Any car over 40 years old? Surelly most "F" will survive...

So in short, I think they all going to be, the difference is going to be... like: how soon and how valuable etc... That will depend on original manufacturing date and rarity, so IS-F might become classic sooner, but RC-F carbon will be rarer hence more expensive..

mrfunex · August 24, 2018

I’d say an early, well kept ISF stands the most chance, as it was the ‘original’ F-car. Whether enough people know about them to generate the cult status a future classic needs, I have no idea.

Linas.P · August 24, 2018

I think good reference would be BMW E28 M535, E34 or Lotus Carlton... by which I mean - they are certainly "classic cars", they not mentally expensive as Jag E-Type or some Ferrari with legacy, but ones in good condition can still be worth more then they sell now. Say now you can get reasonably original IS-F and in good condition for say £15000 and probably if you keep it in same good and original condition for another 20 years it will be worth maybe £40000.

PRT68 · August 24, 2018

I think the ISF is already a classic. I bought my USB with white leather because it's a beautiful vehicle. Everyone that sees it loves the colour combination, and it does have a 'wow' factor. Whilst I don't think it will increase in value, I do think and hope that it will stabilise and not loose too much. Because of the few numbers, future purchasers will seek them out. They will not fall into the hands of the people that have abused early M3's and C63's. These were on my look at list, but their problems and reliability put me off, and I wanted something of distinction, hence my choice.

Mine isn't a garage queen, but I cherish it and don't use it everyday. In 11 weeks since purchase, I've put 1500 miles on it . Being retired , we use it for afternoons out etc. The Prius does shopping trips and running around and anything that involves nasty carparks.

Cars from my earlier days are classics now. Stag, Scimitar, RS 2000 and five XR4i's etc. Wish I'd kept them!! So here's hoping .....

Stuno1 · August 24, 2018

Hard to tell. Will they ever be classics worth £££££

In theory they have it all going for them:

- v8 which is dying out

- Very low volumes

- Well regarded

Time will tell. It all depends if Lexus can produce f cars in the future that garner the desirability of porker and the like. If they can the desirability will filter down and push prices up. It’s in Lexus’s hands.

Womble72 · August 24, 2018

I personally think they will ALL go up in value, none have sold in masses, some early toyotas are becoming quite expensive these days, the F brand broke the mold of a very well put together reliable “family” option, M and AMG performance with far superior quality and reliability.......personally I think it will gain more in the future than any M or AMG car of equivalent era

August 25, 2018

Nostalgia is an important factor. But.......its going to take a long time for that nostalgia factor to register as V8s are still being produced. I'm not sure I want to maintain an F for 20 years to make 5k 'profit'

To realise any rise in value I think you'd need to be able to store it almost unused, somewhere safe where it won't rot.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

Stuno1 · August 25, 2018

31 minutes ago, Comedian said:

Nostalgia is an important factor. But.......its going to take a long time for that nostalgia factor to register as V8s are still being produced. I'm not sure I want to maintain an F for 20 years to make 5k 'profit'

To realise any rise in value I think you'd need to be able to store it almost unused, somewhere safe where it won't rot.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

Agreed. It’s not like an old Ferrari where a person can make hundreds of thousands. Too many cars to enjoy to hold on to one that won’t return heaps of money.

PhoeNicks · August 25, 2018

Sadly I don't hold out any hope for my ISF increasing in value, when I look at some of my previous car history.

1. I have a 70s Reliant Scimitar shell in storage. Has been since I was a kid. The reason it's still there and not restored is because it's always been possible to go out and buy a complete and running example for not much money.

2. E36 M3 and E39 M5. I had a pristine example of both. They were still falling in value when I sold mine, the M5 was already a classic M5 and certainly more lauded and desirable than an unknown Japanese saloon. I think good examples of these are only now starting to increase... years later.

3. Mk2 XR2s. I had 2 of these when I was 17. I think good ones are now worth a few k but that's 30 years after they were made and there's always been a huge following.

I love my ISF, it's character reminds me so much of my old M5, but im not expecting to make any money on it in future.

Womble72 · August 26, 2018

On 8/25/2018 at 9:04 AM, PhoeNicks said:

Sadly I don't hold out any hope for my ISF increasing in value, when I look at some of my previous car history.

1. I have a 70s Reliant Scimitar shell in storage. Has been since I was a kid. The reason it's still there and not restored is because it's always been possible to go out and buy a complete and running example for not much money.

2. E36 M3 and E39 M5. I had a pristine example of both. They were still falling in value when I sold mine, the M5 was already a classic M5 and certainly more lauded and desirable than an unknown Japanese saloon. I think good examples of these are only now starting to increase... years later.

3. Mk2 XR2s. I had 2 of these when I was 17. I think good ones are now worth a few k but that's 30 years after they were made and there's always been a huge following.

I love my ISF, it's character reminds me so much of my old M5, but im not expecting to make any money on it in future.

The same here on the one or two, probably my MKI escort 1300E, purple with black vinyl roof, my uncles before me and his aunt/my great aunt prior to him, 73k with seat covers on (from new)........17 and no idea, mot failed and exploited by the mot station 🙄.......”if only” 🙁

GibletPH · August 27, 2018

The ISF may end up being a cult classic amongst anoraks but that won’t be for a long while yet. To most people the F range is a bit too anonymous and lacks the desirability of it’s German rivals.

A few of my petrolhead mates have driven both my ISFs over the years and whilst they have enjoyed it they have all said that it would be hard for them to buy one over the M3/C63 etc. The fact that Lexus only ever sold 200 or so just backs that up.

Stuno1 · August 27, 2018

6 hours ago, GibletPH said:

The ISF may end up being a cult classic amongst anoraks but that won’t be for a long while yet. To most people the F range is a bit too anonymous and lacks the desirability of it’s German rivals.

A few of my petrolhead mates have driven both my ISFs over the years and whilst they have enjoyed it they have all said that it would be hard for them to buy one over the M3/C63 etc. The fact that Lexus only ever sold 200 or so just backs that up.

Lexus are continuing to establish the f over here. In the states it has a great following. It will take time for people to realise it is a better car to own in many ways as it has been drilled in to us all that the m3 and c63 the best on offer.

Womble72 · August 27, 2018

7 minutes ago, Stuno1 said:

Lexus are continuing to establish the f over here. In the states it has a great following. It will take time for people to realise it is a better car to own in many ways as it has been drilled in to us all that the m3 and c63 the best on offer.

Intelligence VS common sense 🤔.......it’s amazing what intelligent people believe, unlike those with common sense 😂🤣😂......

Flytvr · August 27, 2018

21 minutes ago, Stuno1 said:

Lexus are continuing to establish the f over here. In the states it has a great following. It will take time for people to realise it is a better car to own in many ways as it has been drilled in to us all that the m3 and c63 the best on offer.

I'm not convinced that Lexus are even bothered about pushing the brand in the UK.

I don't think we can say that the F product is better than the German equivalents - just different. It could be argued that M cars have better steering and AMGs generate sounds that we can only dream of. Reliability - Lexus is of course top!

I don't think the IS-F will ever be a classic. They are great cars, but most petrol heads don't even know they exist. Add the other nail to the coffin in the fact that the IS-F is so understated. It is very unlikely that someone will spot an IS-F and think 'I want one of those!!!'. It's hardly a self promoting vehicle! A real shame.

Long term I think the IS-F will become a very expensive beast to run. When warranties run out and things start to fail, there won't be an abundance of parts available - unlike the equivalent M or AMG. As for indies...... forget it!

We may see the bottom end of the IS-F market on Autotrader at £13k, but realistically cars are probably already trading at less than £10k.

Stuno1 · August 27, 2018

Each has its positives clearly. I was merely stating It’s difficult to go against a history of m3 and c63 being market leaders.

FTBBCVoodoo · August 27, 2018

I don't see any of them becoming classics.

Depending on your generation, I grew up watching Audi Quattros rallying, BMW's in BTCC and Mercedes in Lemans so when the time came for me to get a V8 I was steered towards those marques based on nostalgia.

My 1st experience of Lexus was my grandad bringing home an LS400 on a 24 hour test drive back in about 1990 which was in Champagne Gold metallic. I hated it. He bought an E34 535i instead which was ace in white and looked like a Police car so people used to get out the way on our way down to Portsmouth to watch football every Saturday.

I tested a B7 RS4 and it was as dull as dishwater. E90 M3 saloons were a bit of a stretch & the C63 AMG was too much.

It was a friend of mine who had an IS220d at work who mentioned the ISF to me. I had only even seen them on the Top Gear review which they didn't fair well on against the competition. Ironically the same friend has bought an ISF as well 🙂

Mine turned up in my price bracket down the road. I had to get rid of my awful 335i as it was put together with Lego and almost killed me and the family when it's fuel pump failed in the fast lane of the M1.

I watched this YouTube review and it convinced me to take the ISF for a test drive

I tested the ISF, liked it, bought it.

Since grown to love it and will wax lyrical about it to whoever is interested.

By the time they are rare enough to be classed as classics then fuel will probably be at £4 a litre and it will have to resort to Mad Max tactics to get a litre of V Power 😉

PhoeNicks · August 27, 2018

Funny that, the first time I recall seeing a Lexus it was also a CG LS400... however it was on the bonus stage in Street Fighter 2, on the Super Nintendo 😁

Future classic or not, the ISF appealed to me mostly because it was different and probably because it was blue! The fact it was comparitively cheaper than the M3 and AMG just clinched it. I know everyone else will buy the other two 9 times out of 10 because Clarkson told them, but that makes me even more satisfied with my choice.

Ps I still remember how expensive my M cars were to run and maintain. With my ISF I sleep soundly every night.

tomRCFcarbon · August 28, 2018

I agree with @FTBBCVoodoo the sad fact is they will probably never be considered classics (in the proper sense of the word - everyone would love to have one or have had one).

Lexus are certainly trying quite hard to raise their global profile with their various art sponsorships and the success of the LC500 in GT and the potential success of the RCF GT could do good things, but I fear our beloveds will be consigned as a quirk of motoring history - a bit like a Renault V6 turbo / A610 or Fiat Coupe...good cars at the time but didn’t do much to propel the brands into sportier territory and looking back they were just a bit of a quirk. Not saying that both cars aren’t considered classics now, but that’s due to age and rarity not reputation and demand...

I also agree with the petrol point. We are driving dinosaurs. My car has managed about 23mpg and that just isn’t sustainable. Not for the planet. Not for global politics. And with the direction petrol prices are going - not for my pocket in about 3 years time.

You only have to look look at the cars the big manufacturing groups have planned to see that we will all be driving electric cars in 10 years, not out of choice, but you won’t find a petrol car in a showroom. Which leaves us hanging to our v8s. People will be interested in them. People will want to hear them. But in 20-30 years they will be a quirk of history. Something people remark about like they do now about driving without seatbelts or being able to smoke on planes - kind of inconceivably redundant and out of date.

Stuno1 · August 28, 2018

47 minutes ago, tomRCFcarbon said:

I agree with @FTBBCVoodoo the sad fact is they will probably never be considered classics (in the proper sense of the word - everyone would love to have one or have had one).

Lexus are certainly trying quite hard to raise their global profile with their various art sponsorships and the success of the LC500 in GT and the potential success of the RCF GT could do good things, but I fear our beloveds will be consigned as a quirk of motoring history - a bit like a Renault V6 turbo / A610 or Fiat Coupe...good cars at the time but didn’t do much to propel the brands into sportier territory and looking back they were just a bit of a quirk. Not saying that both cars aren’t considered classics now, but that’s due to age and rarity not reputation and demand...

I also agree with the petrol point. We are driving dinosaurs. My car has managed about 23mpg and that just isn’t sustainable. Not for the planet. Not for global politics. And with the direction petrol prices are going - not for my pocket in about 3 years time.

You only have to look look at the cars the big manufacturing groups have planned to see that we will all be driving electric cars in 10 years, not out of choice, but you won’t find a petrol car in a showroom. Which leaves us hanging to our v8s. People will be interested in them. People will want to hear them. But in 20-30 years they will be a quirk of history. Something people remark about like they do now about driving without seatbelts or being able to smoke on planes - kind of inconceivably redundant and out of date.

My god I hope not! At least not as quickly as you state. It will take longer than that to get the infrastructure in place to support a nation of electric cars and a lot of development is needed in to either better range and/or far faster charging.

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

I don't see Lexus trying to raise their profile at all, at least not in UK. Sorry to repeat myself, but there is too wide gap in their line-up to properly promote proper F car. They need to make F as a pinnacle of the brand progression, now the disconnect between IS300h and GS-F and RC300h and RC-F is so huge, that RC-F acts more like separate independent brand (F-Marque) then extension of Lexus.

The brand progression starts from small car, say CT200h... but CT200h is boring as hell, great reliable car, but has no values except of being metal box taking you from a to b. It is great if somebody is lucky enough to get IS200 or maybe IS250 as as first car... they might hang onto the brand if they value reliability, however from there they have nowhere to go, no logical "upgrade". In US obviously that is IS/RC350.. in UK that mid-tier model does not exist and going all the way to RC-F or GS-F is not natural progression at all. As such, by the time people in UK would get to the point where they would consider RC-F as natural next step, they usually would have left Lexus brand for something else...

In the end people buying F cars are seasoned petrolhead who have tried everything and just decided to "give it a try".. which means it will never sell in high number and there is lack of exposure and appreciation for the cars.

To summarise, F would be much more recognised if Lexus would provide interesting entry-level cars (CT200t anyone?), and reasonable progression via mid-tier (IS/RC350) to attract and keep clients who cares about driving dynamics.

tomRCFcarbon · August 28, 2018

2 hours ago, Stuno1 said:

My god I hope not! At least not as quickly as you state. It will take longer than that to get the infrastructure in place to support a nation of electric cars and a lot of development is needed in to either better range and/or far faster charging.

Fact is we will have a legacy of petrol cars on the road for the next 20 years or so. It’s rare to see cars much older than that on the road already...and that will speed up as new testing reg’s are brought in...testing reg’s will get tighter as government is put under pressure by the car lobby to move away from petrol cars (as they won’t want to support them with expensive workshops and parts departments).

Geo-politically we could do without buying all that petrol from abroad and being held to ransom by OPEC all the time. Also Saudi are investing in electric infrastructure and electric vehicle tech so they won’t be too bothered as they have hedged against the shift away from oil.

Electric vehicle infrastructure isn’t hard to install and won’t take much to make happen, after all we have a strong and adaptable grid in the UK and across Europe with tons of capacity so creating charging points is just a job of selecting sites and building them. Regarding charging times, that will be helped by wireless charging integrated into places where vehicles commonly pause (traffic lights, etc) and new tech such as super capacitors and 800v charging packs are bringing charging times down. Hot swappable Battery packs are another way of enabling super quick fill ups and initially are the likely way that HGVs will fill up - but with TACHO stops required by law they often dwell for long periods anyway.

The business model is also going to change which will be another forcing factor, with a move to a ‘Car As A Service’ (CaaS). Which will basically operate as an all inclusive monthly rental...operated by the manufacturers themselves. Moving away from ownership (Volvo doing this already in US) so in the age of autonomous cars, you hail a car and your trip is covered by a car that delivers itself to you at the point of need (rather than waiting indefinitely on the drive) which further helps with the charging issue as the system will manage itself.

But all this is moot. History tells us we’re quite good at anticipating something that is 6-12 months away but disastrous at thinking about a decade away.

tomRCFcarbon · August 28, 2018

Don’t get me wrong - I’m not arguing for this. Just kind of joining up the dots I can see forming. I’ll keep my V8 as long as I possibly can!

Spacewagon52 · August 28, 2018

I do not mean to be rude (always a bad introduction!) but I think most of you are missing the point.

The Question posed was: Which F (if any?) will become a classic?

The answer is simple in my mind - they ALL have the potential to be classics. It just depends on how you define a classic?

Many of you seem to be concentrating on monetary value as a guide to being a classic. I would disagree, as many classics are no where near the price of a new Dacia Sandero!

Rarity and nostalgia are far more important. Another consideration might be "historical" e.g. cutting edge in design or engineering (Citroen DS) - or being the FIRST! (LS 400)

On that basis the LS 400 will outscore all other Lexus models .I think any car can become a classic but would I keep a car for many years, in pristine condition, to try and make it a classic? No I think not. If a car is old enough or rare enough (IS-F) then it will be a classic at some point. Just my humble opinion!

And NO my LS 400 "classic" is not for sale!

LiggyL · August 28, 2018

I think the early ISF's have the potential to be classics but only based on Lexus' first attempt at an M3 beater and their rarity. None of this influenced me buying one though, flying under the radar vs. the competition was the appeal alongside Lexus ownership experience.

In general big output N/A engines days are numbered, I'll enjoy them whilst I can!