average speed cameras

[finest1]

hi all,

I got a bugbear to share with you.

I was on the M4 and M25 last weekend. we went through a patch of roadworks that had average speed cameras set at 50MPH.

while I felt was a good time to check and use my cruise control set at 50, other cars are overtaking me. do these cars get a ticket or penalty. its just frustrating cruising at 50 but others are not.

just annoying really...

so what's the deal with it?

[gdh300]

Have you checked your speedo against a GPS? My old IS300 read 10% over (across whole speed range) so I could safely set my cruise control at an indicated 55mph and know I was at 50mph. If the alleged +10% tolerance is true, I could probably have been doing an indicated 60mph and not be ticketed (not that I'd take the risk!)

I have noticed when I've glanced over at cars with conspicuous digital speedos that are running alongside me that they show a lower speed than I was getting, so I guess it depends on the manufacturer how much over-read they build in. Lexus seemed to have my best interest at heart!

[cidersteve]

i use tom-tom speed camera alert, as an app on my phone, on longer journeys and i would say my Lexus indicated speed is a good 5 mph under the gps indicated speed.

[scudney]

with average speed cameras i just don't take the risk usually stay just under whatever the speed maybe,haven't got a ticket in over 20 years lol 😁 

[NemesisUK]

I miss the soft speed limiter I had on my Mercs, I would set it to the signposted limit and drive normally, in the knowledge I couldn't accidentally accelerate over the limit.

Cruise control just doesn't work in these situations, unless the radar controlled version, even then it's always trying to accelerate to the set cruise speed.

The (undocumented) speed  camera alert in the RC works really well when driving unfamiliar roads. 

 

[Linas.P]

There are no tolerance on speed cameras in UK, they are either on or off. If they off - do whatever speed (though I believe the ones on M25 are set to always flash at 102MPH+, but it might be just a flash). I have been done for 52MPH on 50MPH average (probaly 3 years ago now.. did "speed awarenes course"), I was coming off 70MPH and I never brake for lower limit, simply let the car decelerate, the first average check was probably 700 meters away for slip road, hence overall average was over 52MPH "Real". As other said Lexus usually indicates 10% above the real speed, so when I was travelling at 70MPH that was something like 64 and in 700 metres I have slowed down to something like 45MPH, but average was maybe like 58MPH "indicated", which apparently was 52MPH "real".

The most likely way to get massive penalty is on "smart(dumb) motorways"... most of the time you can do 90MPH no problem with the flow in outside lane and cameras are never ON (not that I say you should, but you "can"), however if the speed changes from national to say 50MPH or 40MPH, the cameras become active immediately... if you were doing 90MPH.. then ouch... 

I drive every day on A13 which for most part has 50MPH average with some parts 40MPH average and I always set my cruise for +5MPH to be dead on the limit. It is funny when I see people overtaking me and then braking before average speed cameras as if that helps with average speed, not sure if they ever get penalties. Again I think most of the time they are OFF, but you would not want to try when they are ON.

[Guest]

however if the speed changes from national to say 50MPH or 40MPH, the cameras become active immediately... if you were doing 90MPH.. then ouch... .

Ching ching..... And totally unreasonable. I now avoid motorways and set satnav to not use them. Problem is the vic20 processor says distance to great to calculate if more than about 150 miles.

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[Linas.P]

To be honest I agree.... If I would have no pressure on being somewhere on time e.g. on occasions where I going out just to drive to country side... I would not use motorways. For me mostly because of terrible lane discipline... even in the quietest motorway you will find somebody hogging the lane, nobody uses first lane ever... and then you have all so called smart motorways which apparently suppose to prevent ghost jams, what they do is exactly opposite - they create them! Then obviously, restrictions for road works without single worker to be seen, restrictions for broken down vehicle on another road 15 miles away ... just because! etc...

So not only you end-up not going faster, but as well it is infuriating (hence I need sunroof!)... It is so much nicer to be on A road, you might not be going fast, but at least it is more relaxing and more interesting.

The problem is that many scenic A/B now are being deliberately terminated in vicinity of motorways, your sat nav doesn't find the route because maybe one doesn't exist. Logic is that - if there is motorway A/B roads terminates onto it or into some sort of dead-end, or simply takes you around the globe!

[Richiano]

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

There are no tolerance on speed cameras in UK, they are either on or off. If they off - do whatever speed (though I believe the ones on M25 are set to always flash at 102MPH+, but it might be just a flash). I have been done for 52MPH on 50MPH average (probaly 3 years ago now.. did "speed awarenes course"), I was coming off 70MPH and I never brake for lower limit, simply let the car decelerate, the first average check was probably 700 meters away for slip road, hence overall average was over 52MPH "Real". As other said Lexus usually indicates 10% above the real speed, so when I was travelling at 70MPH that was something like 64 and in 700 metres I have slowed down to something like 45MPH, but average was maybe like 58MPH "indicated", which apparently was 52MPH "real".

The most likely way to get massive penalty is on "smart(dumb) motorways"... most of the time you can do 90MPH no problem with the flow in outside lane and cameras are never ON (not that I say you should, but you "can"), however if the speed changes from national to say 50MPH or 40MPH, the cameras become active immediately... if you were doing 90MPH.. then ouch... 

I drive every day on A13 which for most part has 50MPH average with some parts 40MPH average and I always set my cruise for +5MPH to be dead on the limit. It is funny when I see people overtaking me and then braking before average speed cameras as if that helps with average speed, not sure if they ever get penalties. Again I think most of the time they are OFF, but you would not want to try when they are ON.

The speed cameras in the gantry's above the M4 going past Bristol  have a variable speed limit but even when they are not showing 40 or 50 mph or whatever are still set at 70 mph. I have had a couple of friends that have been prosecuted doing over 70 mph on that stretch of road and have witnessed cars flying past me then getting lit up like a Christmas tree as they pass under the gantry!

[inflames]

I tend to stick to limit on smart motor ways, i know to many people who have been done my them, not worth the risk.  Average speed camera section's i also tend to stick to the limit, but i do not know anyone who has been caught by these and understand your frustration.  The question to ask your self is worth the risk....?

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, inflames said:

I tend to stick to limit on smart motor ways, i know to many people who have been done my them, not worth the risk.  Average speed camera section's i also tend to stick to the limit, but i do not know anyone who has been caught by these and understand your frustration.  The question to ask your self is worth the risk....?

I hear the problem is you're travelling a long at 70 legally and just as you pass under a camera they change it to 50 - the camera becomes active immediately and photographs you 20mph over the limit enforced. I've not seen any official statement on time delay or if indeed the "story" is true. It would seem to me that after altering the limit the cameras should have at least 1 minute delay giving a 1 mile range to see them. 

[rich1068]

I've often wondered about these motorists going past you when you're in an average speed limit zone. I don't mean those that take 3 miles to creep past but those that are clearly 10 or 20mph faster. The only thing I can put it down to is they're local, do the journey a hundred times a week and somehow know that by coming off at a particular junction they're not going to get done or they're terminally thick and don't understand the concept of averages. Tickets ahoy!

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, rich1068 said:

or they're terminally thick and don't understand the concept of averages. Tickets ahoy!

This... I keep seeing people flying past me and then braking before average cameras, as if they are spot ones! I think most people don't understand concept behind them...

@Comedian - there are usually 2 separate cameras, one is just filming the sign to prove what was indicated speed and other actually speed activated which captures speeding cars. This is to prevent exactly this claim - "it was indicated 60, but I received fine for exceeding 40". Officially, margin is 0MPH and time delay is 0S, meaning that you can be under the gantry doing 70MPH when the speed changes to 40MPH and you can be done for 30MPH over the limit at the same second. Now whenever there is any delay before enforcing limit after the change and whenever there are any margin allowed is secret. I believe that there are some margins and delays allowed just to make it more reasonable. But there are always the risk of some foul play due to lack of transparency.

The risk is if you doing say 80MPH  - normally risk of penalty would be very low and the penalty would be minimal for something like 6-8MPH over the limit after rounding-up (and lest not go crazy here - average is 82MPH nowadays). Now you see speed on gantry in front of you changing to 40MPH, rapidly braking in outside lane would be foolish and dangerous, but you can get prosecuted and be done 40MPH speeding, lose license, missive fine etc. for what was realistically only 8MPH.

So the risk is not really that edge case where speed changes as you pass, but more practical issue where you simply driving "with the flow" just bit over the limit and in a matter of seconds that changes to massive speeding and you become criminal fro what was few miles over the limit.

Most reported issues are actually when there are restrictions in place e.g. 60MPH and it goes 60, 60, 60, 50, 60, 60.. where most people gets penalised is that 50MPH bit - simply not paying attention that one gantry has lower limit and just continues at 60MPH. And I completely understand that - it is something easy to miss especially where the numbers looks similar and you brain has already "assumed" it is 60, because previous one was.

Finally, there is a matter of transparency, what if you were flashed incorrectly say for 50 in 60 zone - would they really check and admit it was their fault or would they still penalise you? And how will you prove it? For example many forces now do not send the evidence in NIP, you have to plead not guilty first just to see it and pleading not guilty, but later being found guilty massively increases the fine and eliminates option of speed awareness course. Just the whole practice surrounding variable speeds is dodgy. One thing is being done for 75MPH on clear 70MPH road completely different is when the speeds can be anything between 40 and 70 - in first case one can say "fair play - my fault", in second case it is completely different can of worms. 

[Guest]

Thanks Linas, good post.

[inflames]

2 hours ago, Comedian said:

I hear the problem is you're travelling a long at 70 legally and just as you pass under a camera they change it to 50 - the camera becomes active immediately and photographs you 20mph over the limit enforced. I've not seen any official statement on time delay or if indeed the "story" is true. It would seem to me that after altering the limit the cameras should have at least 1 minute delay giving a 1 mile range to see them. 

Yeah one of the lads i work with claims he got caught like this and i would not be surprised if they do instantly change either.

[NemesisUK]

I suppose one can go past a camera in an average speed zone at way above the set limit as long as one doesn't arrive at the second camera too early!

 

[Guest]

I'm slightly confused if we are talking about the same cameras?

The big grey boxes above gantries - I thought they were simple 'speed in that moment' cameras and the little yellow ones are average cameras.

 

[NemesisUK]

Thread title is "Average Speed Cameras"?

[Guest]

It's also talking about the yellow temporary cameras at roadworks. Then people started talking about gantry cameras.....i think. Smart motorways were mentioned.

So just checking.

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[NemesisUK]

I think the 'average speed' approach is the only real way to control speed. The usual spot check cameras just encourage drivers to brake and accelerate. The unwary get caught but the vast majority don't.

[Linas.P]

21 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I think the 'average speed' approach is the only real way to control speed. The usual spot check cameras just encourage drivers to brake and accelerate. The unwary get caught but the vast majority don't.

Yes agree.. in my experience average speed cameras provides smoothest and most economical drive... if people understand what "average speed" means obviously. Problem is that as always good idea is used for wrong purposes and every time you see average speed check it is in some stupid place with overly restrictive speed. The worse ones are temporary ones at "roadworks" and they keep them at 40MPH 24/7 regardless if there are any works or not. 40 on motorway is outright dangerous, because it is so slow and so boring that I struggle to focus on driving. In more conformable car like Lexus and on wide 4 lane road it seems like you can almost open the doors and step out based on how slow it feels.

Generally, I am against any sort of speed restrictions - my opinion speed needs to be unrestricted ... mostly, certainly on motorways speed must be unlimited, but your insurance turns into 3rd party only over ~90MPH. And where it is restricted (say residential area, near the school), it should be restricted with average speed cameras to achieve best results. Still the restriction should not be draconian, like those non-sense 20 mile zones - if you cannot drive more then 20 safely there, just close the bloody road altogether, cyclist can go faster then that! Things like speed bumps must be banned as well!

[Texas]

7 hours ago, Comedian said:

I hear the problem is you're travelling a long at 70 legally and just as you pass under a camera they change it to 50 - the camera becomes active immediately and photographs you 20mph over the limit enforced. I've not seen any official statement on time delay or if indeed the "story" is true. It would seem to me that after altering the limit the cameras should have at least 1 minute delay giving a 1 mile range to see them. 

Talking to a HATO ( Highways Agency Traffic Officer) in the past the camera has a 2 minute 'Grace' period from whenever an indicated speed limit figure is adjusted.

Paul M.

[rayaans]

Remember that you can set the car to around 53-55mph depending on how accurate the speedo is compared to GPS and you usually get anywhere between 5-10% leeway so theoretically you can do about 60mph indicated on speedo before you'll be flagged. 

[Linas.P]

1 hour ago, Texas said:

Talking to a HATO ( Highways Agency Traffic Officer) in the past the camera has a 2 minute 'Grace' period from whenever an indicated speed limit figure is adjusted.

Paul M.

Yeah, but I would take any such information with pinch of salt - it is never officially disclosed anywhere (same as for speeding margins), nor you can actually trust it. Every camera can be calibrated different and set differently, or there might be changes since you spoken and now it maybe set for 1 minute instead of 2 on M25 and maybe to 5 minutes on M62. It is like sayings from old days - "police officer will turn a blind eye as long as it is less then 10% over or less then 5miles over the limit"... but really? one officer might do, some other might not.

I agree that it is common sense there are some delay and some margins for error - but to say it is something certain like "2 min" is a bit risky. I guess you right - it puts the question is certain context i.e. what ballpark the delay can be "~few minutes". Again I can say there is certainly margin for speed, because often I pass them on M25 at higher speed e.g. ~10MPH over indicated, so say ~4-6MPH actual speed over the limit without fines. But now to say... "oh yes they have 10% margin" would be just poor advise. I down't know anyone who got fine for 1MPH, but I know few people who had fines for 2MPH (including myself).

Finally, as already mentioned for me the delay is irrelevant.. it is not like I am going to wait for sign to show 40MPH and then count until 120 before slowing down. Much more realistic issues is that one minute I can do 80MPH as everyone without much worry and next minute (or "2 minutes" to be precise) I can land £1000 fine and driving ban for 40MPH over the limit in "40 zone" out of the blue. At least if they would do what they say "prevent ghost jams", but no... they just create them!

[st4]

I suppose one can go past a camera in an average speed zone at way above the set limit as long as one doesn't arrive at the second camera too early!
 

As I have ;)




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