How much importance do you place 0-60?

tomRCFcarbon · August 28, 2018

Crikey imagine if you had a car that couldn’t do 0-60 in 7.3 secs‽ you would be stuck in that petrol station forever...presumably there were thousands of motorists stuck there, surviving on ginsters pasties, overly bitter Costa machine coffee and Frijj milkshakes - poor buggers. Still I guess it will teach them not to buy a ‘lesser car’ in future...

Hadrian · August 28, 2018

17 minutes ago, Vlady said:

People say in 30-50 years they never considered 0-62 time, I can't believe it! There had to be a situation when you needed more/better acceleration for situation, well, may be it is not 0 to 60 but 0-30/40!

Believe it or not, but I can assure you that in my case it's true. Of course there are time when we need to put our foot down to overtake.

I have a friend who says his car has got him out of trouble many times because of it's acceleration. Although the way he drives, he tends to

often get into damgerous situations more often than most.

dutchie01 · August 28, 2018

Having sufficient power creates a more relaxed drive as you just know the possibillity is there to quickly escape a potentially dangerous situation. If you dont have any reserve the only options left are to brake, turn left or right and thats it. So, in that aspect powerful cars are safer which leads to the next question how much power is needed for that and where does it become unsafe to handle. One does not need a lot of power to belong to the 10% fastest motors out there but responsibly handling a 500hp car is something else.

Which brings me to overtaking on B roads, trucks caravans etc. This is the fastest way of getting into trouble quickly just ask any ambulance or police officer that has been cleaning up the mess even only once. Having a powerful car does make it easier to go for that hole and swiftly make progress but patience is gold sometimes. power reserve in 30 - 70 is what you need here.

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

@dutchie01 - I see 0-60 as simply yard stick to determine 30-70 reserve, with some exceptions as discussed, but still good measure.

As for safely handling 500hp car, it is more of knowing your car limits and more importantly your own limits a a driver. 500hp doesn't make car less safe - that is fact, but there always going to be some mental racers on public roads or simply people who misjudged limitations or multiple unlucky circumstances. That said, I don't think car needs 500hp, nor 0-60 in 4.5s (event thought the less is always better).. I consider sub 6s 0-60 as acceptable in most circumstances and anything over 8s 0-60 outright dangerous.

As for patience - less 30-70 reserve you have should directly correlate with the amount of patience. As such not patient driver in slow car will be most dangerous one.

@Womble72 - yes as I said most people anticipate and change the lane to give some space to join (If possible during traffic). People with slower car then 7.3s (which is still very very slow on my books) would simply pull in dangerously slow and cut-off drivers on motorway making them to slowdown or quickly change lanes. That is dangerous and one should not simply bank on other people slowing down for their slow cars, by the way that would be straight failure on driving test... still remember as I did my test only 13 years ago. By the rules you should match the speed before joining the road and avoid causing dangerous situation (braking, changing lanes) - that is known as "careless driving" and is punishable offence.

doog442 · August 28, 2018

23 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

People with slower car then 7.3s (which is still very very slow on my books) would simply pull in dangerously slow and cut-off drivers on motorway making them to slowdown or quickly change lanes. That is dangerous and one should not simply bank on other people slowing down for their slow cars, by the way that would be straight failure on driving test... still remember as I did my test only 13 years ago. By the rules you should match the speed before joining the road and avoid causing dangerous situation (braking, changing lanes) - that is known as "careless driving" and is punishable offence.

Sorry Linas but that is just ridiculous. 7.3 isn't 'very very slow'. I was taught to drive and do overtakes at ludicrous speeds on slow and fast country roads / motorways / Cities in a 2 litre Sierra saloon with a 0-60 time of 9 seconds and trust me we did it without any difficulty. We then advanced to a 3 litre Vauxhall Carlton with a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds which by your reckoning must be slow if 7.3 is very, very slow.

Its how you drive and it wasn't much more than dropping down a gear prior to moving into the offside lane to get a proper view ahead before making a safe overtake.

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

3 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Sorry Linas but that is just ridiculous. 7.3 isn't 'very very slow'. I was taught to drive and do overtakes at ludicrous speeds on slow and fast country roads / motorways / Cities in a 2 litre Sierra saloon with a 0-60 time of 9 seconds and trust me we did it without any difficulty. We then advanced to a 3 litre Vauxhall Carlton with a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds which by your reckoning must be slow if 7.3 is very, very slow.

Its how you drive and it wasn't much more than dropping down a gear prior to moving into the offside lane to get a proper view ahead before making a safe overtake.

I said - "on my books", which means it is my opinion. 7.3s is about average nowadays, it is faster then my IS250, so I would have had same issue there. I was able to just about to join traffic without causing any dangerous situation there and with anything slower then that (ehemmm RC300h...) I would have had to wait longer... I don't need to say I am not very patient... so you see where it is going.

When you learned to drive with Sierra and when Carltons were around... were the roads as busy as they are now? were people driving as fast as they are now? didn't people expect you to be slower considering that all cars back then were much slower to accelerate? That is why you see pensioners driving like some zombies from another world - because they still driving like they used to in 60's, but they don't fit in modern traffic and are outright dangerous for themselves and others.

In short - the times has changed, the way we drive have changed and the requirements for what is considered reasonable acceleration have to change as well.

Big Rat · August 28, 2018

30 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Sorry Linas but that is just ridiculous. 7.3 isn't 'very very slow'. I was taught to drive and do overtakes at ludicrous speeds on slow and fast country roads / motorways / Cities in a 2 litre Sierra saloon with a 0-60 time of 9 seconds and trust me we did it without any difficulty. We then advanced to a 3 litre Vauxhall Carlton with a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds which by your reckoning must be slow if 7.3 is very, very slow.

Its how you drive and it wasn't much more than dropping down a gear prior to moving into the offside lane to get a proper view ahead before making a safe overtake.

@doog442 Absolutely right sir.

🐀

Flytvr · August 28, 2018

28 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I said - "on my books", which means it is my opinion. 7.3s is about average nowadays, it is faster then my IS250, so I would have had same issue there. I was able to just about to join traffic without causing any dangerous situation there and with anything slower then that (ehemmm RC300h...) I would have had to wait longer... I don't need to say I am not very patient... so you see where it is going.

You don't need more power. If you had a car with better fuel efficiency, you wouldn't have to visit this garage you have described.

How about an IS220d?

dutchie01 · August 28, 2018

Linas everything over 8 secs 0-60 is outright dangerous . You serious?

i fully agree and hope those irresponsible motorists will be fined and their cars be made illegal. That will also solve all trafficjams as 70% of vehicles will have to be destroyed.

long time ago i heard such nonsense.

An italian once explained me his drivingstyle when entering roundabouts or highways in rome. He said - you have to enter full throttle and make other drivers afraid so they will stop for you!-

propably the other side if the scale but each to their own?

FTBBCVoodoo · August 28, 2018

1 hour ago, doog442 said:

Sorry Linas but that is just ridiculous. 7.3 isn't 'very very slow'. I was taught to drive and do overtakes at ludicrous speeds on slow and fast country roads / motorways / Cities in a 2 litre Sierra saloon with a 0-60 time of 9 seconds and trust me we did it without any difficulty. We then advanced to a 3 litre Vauxhall Carlton with a 0-60 time of 7.1 seconds which by your reckoning must be slow if 7.3 is very, very slow.

Its how you drive and it wasn't much more than dropping down a gear prior to moving into the offside lane to get a proper view ahead before making a safe overtake.

Slight Tangent... My Uncle used to have the 3.0 24V Vauxhall Senator. That was a cool car back in the day. If it was good enough for the Traffic Police :-)

On the Carlton front, one of the senior managers here has a Lotus Carlton (Along with an E39 M5 and an F10 M5) will nab a picture of it when it's next in the car park. Cool bit of kit :-)

FTBBCVoodoo · August 28, 2018

17 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

You don't need more power. If you had a car with better fuel efficiency, you wouldn't have to visit this garage you have described.

How about an IS220d?

Actual real life example of this happened to me last year. We were leaving Germany and had a text from EuroTunnel saying that a blockade of the terminal was due later on that day.

About 6 cars were in our group (2 x ISF's, 1 x Fiesta ST, 1 x Audi A3 and a BMW 320d).

Myself and other ISF owner thought.... Screw the convoy & hit the autobahn and were "cruising" at about 150mph. We were somewhat pushing on through Netherlands and most of Belgium as well (apart from Brussels with the usual traffic fest)

Stopped to fill up in Belgium as we were soon nearing empty.

The slower cars went past us while we were stationary.

They made it into the terminal with about 30 seconds to spare. We were 5 mins behind and our crossing was delayed by 4 hours.

If ever there was a case of the Hare and the Tortoise 😉

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

57 minutes ago, Flytvr said:

You don't need more power. If you had a car with better fuel efficiency, you wouldn't have to visit this garage you have described.

How about an IS220d?

With IS220d.. that would not be an issue at all.. and not because it is more fuel efficient, but because it would have blown head gasket and would be stripped for parts on driveway... to support all those IS-F out there. Only 200 remains so we should treasure them!

More seriously, it doesn't matter how efficient is your car, eventually you will be in same situation... if not leaving that garage, then it would be another one 100miles further..

noby76 · August 28, 2018

for an overtake to be made successfully, I put it more down to the speed being travelled by the oncoming vehicle on the opposite side and how close they are . if the speed of the car at the opposite is travelling fast, and quite close with not enough room left on the opposite side than the rate at which one can quickly accelerate to the opposite lane and overtake, it doesn't really matter if you have 1000bhp under the bonnet. an overtake will not be possible.

is more to do with how

1.close the oncoming vehicle is

2. how fast the oncoming vehicle is travelling

3. room available to slot back in

A 1000 bhp vehicle cannot overtake if room is not available so its more the road conditions than the power of your vehicle when it comes to an overtake.

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

@noby76 It is still the same thing just the other way around. Nobody is suggesting here to make a dangerous overtake, what we are talking about - "if there is suitable opportunity" to overtake, which are scarce and never perfect in UK (again because of overgrown roads with continuous blind bends). With reasonable fast car you can overtake and get back to your lane, with slow car you will not fit in gap and either oncoming car, or the car you overtaking or both will have to slowdown to "accommodate" you, or it will be head on crash, or you will be driving behind slow car forever if you very patient. In short - you will have less suitable opportunities with slow car..

Overtaking math is very simple - you have 10s gap, can you go 30-70-30 in that 10s or not?! That is all it is... If you have faster car then you have added safety, that if you misjudge the gap you can still make it in 8s, whereas with slow car you will be ditching it mid-way... You will get more opportunities with faster car, because you will need less time to do it safely, if there is no gap.. then obviously you will not be able to do it with any car.

Same goes for "slotting back in" - with slow car you might only be able to overtake 2 out of 4 cars before your time runs out, with faster car you will be able to overtake all 4 cars or more at once. Obviously, the problem is that slower drivers often drive close to the car they are unable to overtake and ten makes it impossible for faster drivers to do it either... that is very annoying - you either overtake or back-off! That is the issue I have with IS250 - I am confident enough take opportunities to overtake 1,2 maybe 3 cars, but it is nowhere fast enough to overtake like 7, certainly there are no such road in UK with log enough visibility to do it safely.

doog442 · August 28, 2018

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

When you learned to drive with Sierra and when Carltons were around... were the roads as busy as they are now? were people driving as fast as they are now? didn't people expect you to be slower considering that all cars back then were much slower to accelerate? That is why you see pensioners driving like some zombies from another world - because they still driving like they used to in 60's, but they don't fit in modern traffic and are outright dangerous for themselves and others.

In short - the times has changed, the way we drive have changed and the requirements for what is considered reasonable acceleration have to change as well.

You're right times have changed .Traffic is slower, roads are more congested and speed limits are enforced far more than they were back then. So why on earth would you need a faster car under todays conditions ?

The road infrastructure hasn't kept pace with technological advancement so you drive according to the road and traffic conditions, not what your car can do .

noby76 · August 28, 2018

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Overtaking math is very simple - you have 10s gap, can you go 30-70-30 in that 10s or not?! That is all it is...

As you say its GAP that's the deciding factor. not power. power is useless if GAP is not there/enough..

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

1 minute ago, doog442 said:

you drive according to the road and traffic conditions, not what your car can do .

Agree on this, but for the rest.. it really depends on the road. Take for example same A127 - I am sure in 80s' there was one car passing every minute, now it is more like every second. So in 80s' you would have waited for car to pass and would pull-in pretty casually straight away, because there would be no other car for another minute.

Other thing.. on average speeds has increased. Statistically average speed on free-flowing motorway is 82MPH now, that is considering 70MPH legal limit... and yes you are right limits are more strictly enforced now, however even "slow" driver is doing 70MPH nowadays, whereas before most drivers would have been doing 55MPH-60MPH and few fast ones maybe 110MPH. So statistically in 80's average speed was 67MPH and spread was 55-110(maybe), now average speed is 82MPH and spread is 70-90MPH.

Flytvr · August 28, 2018

I’ve always questioned the argument for power getting you out of trouble. I suppose that when pulling out of junctions, power can help, but personally I think power is more likely to get you in to trouble.

Lets take overtaking as an example. When using your POWER to overtake a string of vehicles, you’ve got to be damn sure that all of the vehicles know that you are coming. You can’t guarantee this - so power could get you into a bag of trouble.

One last point. Tricky situations often occur very rapidly. It’s very unlikely that you will react quickly enough to use said POWER. In any case, if your gearbox is in Auto mode, then you’ll be relying on k I C k d o w n. ZzzZZZZZZ.

Ill take great brakes and tyres over POWER any day!!!

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

5 minutes ago, noby76 said:

As you say its GAP that's the deciding factor. not power. power is useless if GAP is not there/enough..

Do you think I am blind?! Yes obviously, if there is no gap - THERE IS NO GAP! Means not overtaking! Still there could be many gaps and you could not take them, because your car is too slow to take them!

@Flytvr - yes that is always an issue when overtaking queue of cars, the fact that they will be at fault doesn't help either! But that is not your power putting you at risk - it is blind and ignorant people who don't check their mirrors.

doog442 · August 28, 2018

8 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

@noby76 I am confident enough take opportunities to overtake 1,2 maybe 3 cars, but it is nowhere fast enough to overtake like 7, certainly there are no such road in UK with log enough visibility to do it safely.

SEVEN ? 😂

Who the hell in their right mind would even think about overtaking seven cars on a single carriageway road ? I presume you mean seven cars in a line and at one go..You really are the next statistic if you go out on a road with that mindset. even if you accept that your car won't do it. Would you do it in an RCF ?

dutchie01 · August 28, 2018

Overtaking a string of cars is irresposible driving imo as only the first you overtake will see you coming but not the rest. If you fly past 6 or 7 cars it will only be time before you loose your licence or end up in a ditch.

tomRCFcarbon · August 28, 2018

*Hornets nest kicked*

noby76 · August 28, 2018

6 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

Still there could be many gaps and you could not take them, because your car is too slow to take them!

Big deal!! just wait until you have enough GAP your car can take and go for it.. as i said previously there is still a gap 1000bhp car cannot take due to the road conditions so again NOT power but road conditions dictates an overtake.

Linas.P · August 28, 2018

21 minutes ago, doog442 said:

SEVEN ? 😂

Who the hell in their right mind would even think about overtaking seven cars on a single carriageway road ? I presume you mean seven cars in a line and at one go..You really are the next statistic if you go out on a road with that mindset. even if you accept that your car won't do it. Would you do it in an RCF ?

The other option is obviously to stop for a pint in a pub.. as somebody suggested.

@dutchie01 Irresponsible is to stick behind other car if you not overtaking and make long unbreakable queue which nobody but bravest/stupidest would even try to overtake.

Overtaking 3 is sketchy enough and I scare s*** of me self very time, on European roads with miles of visibility and clean road-sides it is possible to overtake more, but you obviously praying god no blind ******* going to start overtaking as well without checking mirrors.

I can give another example - overtaking 2 trucks (equivalent of 8-10 cars)... you come behind the truck, there is opportunity to overtake ... you start it and mid-way first truck you realise there is no gap between them. Mostly truckers are smart enough to leave that gap, but not all people are smart (sorry for breaking unfortunate news for you)... So what do you do.. brake and abandon, try to squeeze between 2 trucks? or finish overtaking? In IS250 finish overtaking is not an option, so I have to resort with first 2... especially on European roads where overtaking with British car is already not ideal...

@noby76 - yes big deal, because your gap might not come-up for 150 miles.. so you can drive hoping car in front turns-off before that? And lets not talk about 10000hp cars.. makes no sense. In IS250 lets say I will have 5 opportunities in 100 miles, in RC-F 20 opportunities in 100 miles and in RC300h maybe 3 opportunities, out of them maybe 2 will be safe in IS250, 15 safe in RC-F and none safe in RC300h.

noby76 · August 28, 2018

4 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

@noby76 - yes big deal, because your gap might not come-up for 150 miles.. so you can drive hoping car in front of you turns-off before that?

In my 20 years of driving i have not come across such a situation an i have driven in all types of roads across UK including farming areas and have come across slow large trucks..