LS600H, my new car but problems since the first day.

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

The Buyer said that he drove home after purchase.

For that to have been legal, the car must have been Mot`d, Taxed and Insured (unless we have not been given all of the facts)

The Buyer presumably arranged for the vehicle to be Taxed and Insured and the Seller presumably arranged for the Certificate of Road Worthiness (M..O.T.)

A Court will compare the two documents (M.O.T. AND Sold as spares etc) and reach the view that one must prevail over the other.

No prizes awarded for guessing which one prevails and which one falls by the wayside.

The MOT is only a snapshot and therefore means that the vehicle was roadworthy at the time of the test. It does not mean that the vehicle was roadworthy at time of sale or time of collection/being driven away or in fact, even 1 second after the test was carried out.

The buyer can tax and insure any vehicle as long as it has a valid MOT. They can insure any vehicle so that would not make a difference to the case. 

You rightly state that the buyer drove home after purchase. However, it is implied by the document that the buyer signed that he did so illegally and ultimately, it is the buyers responsibility to make sure the car is fit for road use before being driven.

Additionally, the seller can also state that he had the necessary repairs done on it to put it up for sale. The big red stamp is present and is unlikely to be missed. It was also signed and dated so its very very difficult to come back from that. 

Having said that, no reason why you can't try going through moneyclaim.gov.uk

[royoftherovers]

26 minutes ago, rayaans said:

The MOT is only a snapshot and therefore means that the vehicle was roadworthy at the time of the test. It does not mean that the vehicle was roadworthy at time of sale or time of collection/being driven away or in fact, even 1 second after the test was carried out.

The buyer can tax and insure any vehicle as long as it has a valid MOT. They can insure any vehicle so that would not make a difference to the case. 

You rightly state that the buyer drove home after purchase. However, it is implied by the document that the buyer signed that he did so illegally and ultimately, it is the buyers responsibility to make sure the car is fit for road use before being driven.

Additionally, the seller can also state that he had the necessary repairs done on it to put it up for sale. The big red stamp is present and is unlikely to be missed. It was also signed and dated so its very very difficult to come back from that. 

Having said that, no reason why you can't try going through moneyclaim.gov.uk

Clearly none of us are party to what actually transpired, but if the Buyer is to have a case to pursue, then

 

(a) He will have to show that he was mislead into signing the Disclaimer and that it was simply a ruse by the Seller to avoid his own Statutory responsibilities and to "justify" to the Buyer  the finally negotiated purchase price.

(b) The M.O.T. Certificate will show the date,  time  and location of the vehicle examination and be compared with the financial documentation.

If the Seller arranged the M.O.T. prior to issuing the Disclaimer the Buyer wins. If the Buyer arranged his own M.OT, he loses.

But of course, all of that is subject to the Buyer, (the OP) telling us all what actually happened as regards the details of the entire transaction.

If only matters were so simple !!

The events may unfold.We shall wait and see.

[MLW]

1 hour ago, royoftherovers said:

Clearly none of us are party to what actually transpired, but if the Buyer is to have a case to pursue, then

 

(a) He will have to show that he was mislead into signing the Disclaimer and that it was simply a ruse by the Seller to avoid his own Statutory responsibilities and to "justify" to the Buyer  the finally negotiated purchase price.

(b) The M.O.T. Certificate will show the date,  time  and location of the vehicle examination and be compared with the financial documentation.

If the Seller arranged the M.O.T. prior to issuing the Disclaimer the Buyer wins. If the Buyer arranged his own M.OT, he loses.

But of course, all of that is subject to the Buyer, (the OP) telling us all what actually happened as regards the details of the entire transaction.

If only matters were so simple !!

The events may unfold.We shall wait and see.

These are good points. I really feel for this chap. We have all make car mistakes. Car fever is a terrible thing. You want the car, and really really want the car, so a red mist comes down and all logic goes out the window. Sometimes taking a critical friend along is helpful and they see things, and say this smells bad.

Where are we here.

The auction route is an interesting one. With an MOT it might fetch .....what? £4,000 or £5,000, I don't know. It is a hell of a hit and risky. This is a very specialist car, with a limited pool of sellers.

Trying to reason is probably not so good with this outfit.

Trading standards has to be worth a punt, as they would want to know how come this sort of 1960's type practice is still going on. This may take time, but I would do it whatever the outcome.

The small claims court will cost £410 to start a claim, and a lot of personal time. Given the £9k+ it might be worth it. The real problem is that stamp. It is blindingly obvious that it signals big trouble, yet it was accepted. It is so very unusual. I have never seen it as a condition of sale of a normal retail outlet. You would only really see it on a £300 car with a rusty floor sold for spares to perhaps a classic car enthusiast. He will argue it is a trade sale. Does it specify that anywhere? If not, the contract implies it is a normal retail sale. The point above regarding the MOT is a good one. Having a car MOTed and then selling it as spares, implies the seller wants a high retail price option, linked to a trade sale with no comeback. A judge may not like this at all. They will question the seller rigorously. I have seen it in court. 

If you loose he will ask for costs, say £250 for attending etc. The court paperwork arriving at his showroom, may promote a settlement. It often does. In fact, courts like the parties to settle. It is actively encouraged.

The other option is to accept the car and go with it. It may be OK and you may get years out of it. This often happens.

Whatever you do I would do it quickly.

If it were me, given the sums involved and that I would never really love this car as it is tainted, I would risk a small claims court.The stamp is a nightmare that you accepted, but courts look for what is 'fair and equitable' within the law. A judge may well have been stung themselves in the past, and will find this sharp practice unacceptable. If you win the will enforce it. This outfit has assets and a court will enforce payment. He may settle when the paperwork arrive in a court envelop. You could also ask yourself, what could you accept to walk away from this mess. If he gave you £8,000 back for the car, would you take it? If so, offer that and see if he will settle, if not a small claims court for me.  

[steve2006]

Interesting article, did the trader make a reasonable effort to prevent the car being driven away?

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/spares-or-repair-dodgy-trader-tricks/

[PCM]

All these posts are such brilliant and caring thoughts.

Lots of options and choices.

 

[doog442]

Small claims court / lives a fair distance from the cowboy dealer are there any positives to take out of this ?.

I see Lexus mentioned the possible accident damage when doing the pads / discs and diagnostics. The dealer didnt hide this either if the OP has the receipts . Did Lexus do a health check as well, they usually do .You can bet they would have been all over the car like a rash when it was on the ramps and nothing else came back. That may be a positive.

I see the owner in Ireland was clearly a very wealthy property developer, drop him an e mail and ask about the accident 😉  or make a few enquiries with the people on the receipts for the knocking noise and ask if they know its history since then.

The OP examined the vehicle and was happy enough to hand over the money probably thinking he had a bargain with the big red stamp. It obviously has an MOT, new pads / discs. The only issue being the warning light. I'm in no doubt they cleared the codes with an OBD reader so it may be something as simple as an oil change but how would you deal with a warning light when you live that far from the dealer.?

A few choices : Get it independently examined and go for their throat through small claims but I fear he may struggle having agreed it was unroadworthy to try and get a deal.

Keep the motor, Lexus have looked at it and nothing else has been flagged up , new pads / discs fitted, it has an MOT. Deal with the code and see if the dealer will pay for the costs involved in that. Enjoy it or sell it via webuyanycar, cut your losses , run and learn from your mistake. 

[harrylime]

Some really good points have been made here. I know nothing about trade sales or "car sold for spares or repair", and it's tempting to think that this is all wrong, therefore the buyer must have a good case. That stamp is pretty damning evidence, but as someone suggested, was the buyer duped into signing the agreement? Beyond that, regardless of the terms of the contract, is the seller duty bound to inform the buyer of any known defects? For such serious faults to occur so soon after purchase in what is an inherently very reliable engine, it is hard to believe that the seller was not aware. I'm not even sure a "trade sale" is permitted to private customers, I would have assumed that trade sales occur between  two traders.My first step would be a conversation with Trading Standards, they are experts in this field and I believe the service is free. This company may already be known to Trading Standards because this seems like very dodgy practice to me. They may be able to exert pressure on the buyer's behalf.

If I decided not to take this to court based on advice given, I would contact the company and request a refund promising them that in the event of a refusal, I would resort to wielding the only power available to  me as a consumer. I would distribute a factual account of my purchase, naming names in, every motoring, consumer forum and social media outlet, especially in their geographic area but also nationally, and would make it my life's work and repeat this everywhere for the next two years or three years, to share my experience and spread the word, hopefully to prevent other people going through the misery I have experience whilst dealing with them. This LS is the most expensive car among their stock. They sell cheap cars but many are the type of cars that might attract petrolheads, who tend to look at these sites before buying. I don't imagine this reputational loss would take long to cost them more than what this car is worth. Sticking to the facts, there is nothing this company could do about it.

[Malc]

12 hours ago, doog442 said:

I see the owner in Ireland was clearly a very wealthy property developer,

If you wish I will gladly try to contact him personally for you next month when I go for my Grand Tour there.

Just let me know within the next few days with what info you have that I might get in touch.

Malc

[xanavi22]

On 8/22/2018 at 9:00 PM, doog442 said:

I see the owner in Ireland was clearly a very wealthy property developer, drop him an e mail and ask about the accident 😉  or make a few enquiries with the people on the receipts for the knocking noise and ask if they know its history since then.

 

I will write him a letter as there is no emails on the receipts.

On 8/23/2018 at 9:29 AM, Malc said:

If you wish I will gladly try to contact him personally for you next month when I go for my Grand Tour there.

Just let me know within the next few days with what info you have that I might get in touch.

Malc

If u can that will be great, thank u.

[xanavi22]

Thanks all for all the advise, i had a good think these days and am going to risk taking on the car on, its too much hassle at the end of the day and i might come out with nothing or i might be wrong?

But i will still be contracting Trading standards to tell them the issue to see if anything can be done.

When the guy passed me over the letter to sign that day, i did ask why is it being stamped "Sold as spares and repairs vehicle to be trailered away unroad worthy condition?" he said because there is no warranty so thats why the stamp is there.

The guy also helped me sort out my insurance as i was having trouble switching over from my ISF to LS600h.

[xanavi22]

Can someone take a picture and show me the tyre pressure sticker on the side of there LS600H as i don't have 1 and would like to know the correct pressures.

Is there a way of finding out what model mines is? been trying to google but cant fine the answer, LS600h, LS600HL? LS600HL RSR? etc....

[Leigh2000]

Hi

I’ve been through something similar and may have some insight on recourse. Firstly, you have 30 days to reject the car or request that repairs should be made at no expense or inconvenience to yourself. This must be done in writing. If you phone the Citizens Advice consumer helpline they will help you and they have some very useful template letters to use. Someone mentioned above that you should  demand a response within 3 days. A more reasonable time frame would be 28 days... but at least give the trader a reasonable chance to put things right.

Phone number is 03454 04 05 06

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/about-us/how-citizens-advice-works/citizens-advice-consumer-work/the-consumer-rights-act-2015/

if you explain to them the situation about you buying the car as spares or repairs in order to get a reduction they will tell you exactly where you stand. As a layman who knows just enough to be dangerous, my opinion is that this is dodgy behaviour from the dealer and may lead to them being referred to Trading Standards. The CA people will do this for you.

Chances are that you won’t get anywhere with the first letter. You will then need to send a second letter as a “letter before court action” in which you give the dealer a reasonable amount of time to resolve the problem, giving them the option of mediation through using an Alternate Dispute Resolution Scheme. If this dealer is kosher, they will be a member of a trade body that offers such a scheme. Or you could offer to refer the case to an independent ADR scheme you select. Google search these. You will also need to cite the relevant legislation... it’s in the template letter. 

If you decide to keep the car, get quotes for the work you need to get done. Start with Lexus as this is the definitive. Then get at least one other quote from a reputable independent garage. Don’t have anything done yet. If the dealer is still refusing to play ball and has rejected mediation, start a claim by using moneyclaim.gov (0300 123 1057). Or go to your local county court and fill in form N1. You need to sue the trader and get the judgement before getting the car fixed. 

Oh, and start keeping a timeline of any interaction you have with the seller. Log all phone calls and send letters special delivery. Print off the delivery receipts for these. 

You can claim for consequential losses and damages resulting from the dispute providing you have the recipes and invoices  (e.g. £99 receipt for a diagnostic and quote from Lexus). My theory is that the court may we’ll rule in your favour but given the fact you acknowledge you bought the car with known faults, may rule that you must send the car to a cheaper option than Lexus to get it fixed (although the trader will end up paying).

of course this all takes time (and some outlay of funds) so most people who want their car on the road just throw their hands up, admit they’ve been had and move one with making the best of the situation. I urge you not to do this as this is the reason why dodgy b*****ds like this think they can carry on getting away with doing this.

However, best wishes with what you decide to do.

 

[Leigh2000]

Just another thought- was the car a “grey import”. If it was then the dealer may well want to avoid too much scrutiny?

[xanavi22]

On 8/22/2018 at 5:20 PM, steve2006 said:

Interesting article, did the trader make a reasonable effort to prevent the car being driven away?

https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/spares-or-repair-dodgy-trader-tricks/

Nope, He was helping me trying to see if i could get a 1 day cover driveaway as i was having problems for a few days trying to switch my ISF over to the LS600H, that failed so i logged back into my insurance to let him have a go and he done it.

[PCM]

Hello,

Have you made any progress/decisions on your car...?

Regards.

[xanavi22]

On 9/1/2018 at 10:47 AM, PCM said:

Hello,

Have you made any progress/decisions on your car...?

Regards.

Hi,

 

I have decided to keep the car and fix the car and hopefully its nothing big.

I have contacted trading standards and they have contacted me back as they seem really interested in the matter, will keep all posted.

 

Michael.

[Northern isf]

Just found this thread I bought the carbon toms bits off you, real shame for this to happen I did suspect it had been in a shunt as the wings were mis-aligned hopefully it's nothing major for you to fork out for.

[xanavi22]

Last week i thou my tyre had a puncture, i try pumping it and it didn't work, took it off and it looked like this, the tyre has been leaking air daily since the day i got it.

I also send a Letter to the last owner but i have got it back as the people have moved away.

I also don't have my V5C yet and its well over a month now i think.

[Vlady]

OMG! This is scary! I have never seen it before!  I didn't expect a Lexus owner to get tyres to that stage!

You need to check the rest of the wheels too, just to be safe! 

[royoftherovers]

7 hours ago, xanavi22 said:

Last week i thou my tyre had a puncture, i try pumping it and it didn't work, took it off and it looked like this, the tyre has been leaking air daily since the day i got it.

I also send a Letter to the last owner but i have got it back as the people have moved away.

I also don't have my V5C yet and its well over a month now i think.

Why put low profile tyres on an Ls ?

[Jake430]

2 hours ago, royoftherovers said:

Why put low profile tyres on an Ls ?

The correct size is 245 x 45 x 19

[doog442]

9 hours ago, xanavi22 said:

Last week i thou my tyre had a puncture, i try pumping it and it didn't work, took it off and it looked like this, the tyre has been leaking air daily since the day i got it.

I also send a Letter to the last owner but i have got it back as the people have moved away.

I also don't have my V5C yet and its well over a month now i think.

Yes, I think I can just about see the leak

Are you saying the dealer positively encouraged you to drive away that death trap ? I'm absolutely lost for words, the place needs shutting down. I presume that picture is going to trading standards. 

[Northern isf]

That could have easily been lethal if you were travelling on a motorway and it disintegrated like that. I would certainly be taking pictures as you say it was leaking air since you got it. Id be pushing for a few grand back at least or maybe visit his place of work and accidentally spill paint stripper on some of his stock!

[Vlady]

When is the car due MOT? I assume something like this should noted then when it had last MOT!

[Jake430]

Looks like the car may have been driven some distance with a soft tyre before it was noticed and could be pulled off the road. Imho.