What Makes a Premium Car these days?

st4 · August 12, 2018

Are you having a laugh?
Have you driven the latest 3 series and the MK7.5 Golf? The 3 series has more road noise and engine noise(dependent on engine) than the Golf.
It might be one of the best handling saloons in its segment but it's certainly not miles more refined than the Golf is.
The Skoda Octavia might be the same car underneath but it doesn't have the same level of sound deadening etc. Skoda cut corners and use parts that VW used a decade ago.

Yes 2 of them. An R and a 1.6tdi. Didn’t rate either but the R did go very well. I found the E90 3 series better than the F30 but would take either over a golf and they seemed a good bit quieter too

Agree - in IS is not as much of an issue it is l4, but more that it is under-powered. I would still take V6 any day, but if Lexus would make IS300h to go to 60MPH in 6.5s I would not complain as much.

Import an IS350 from Europe?

The 220t looks interesting with the 8speed box - the 250 has the old 6speed and it my experience (gs250) it isn’t the best.,

IS300h on paper looks great to run but I do worry it might be a little bit slow. At least they’re reliable though and with modern cars that is not a given

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Linas.P · August 12, 2018

22 minutes ago, st4 said:

Import an IS350 from Europe?

The 220t looks interesting with the 8speed box - the 250 has the old 6speed and it my experience (gs250) it isn’t the best.,

IS300h on paper looks great to run but I do worry it might be a little bit slow. At least they’re reliable though and with modern cars that is not a given

There are no IS350 in Europe - US, Middle east or perhaps Japan... but then I am not mental fanboy of Lexus to pay twice the price just to have reasonable car with wheel in the wrong side, and then have no warranty service and pay 5 times the insurance because it is "grey import". This is not like importing '67 Mustang - not comparable cars.

IS200t sound like dropping bunch of bolts into the can, the gearbox never find the right gear and they are so rare that any reasonable spec. costs fortune. Furthermore it not that much faster, neither it is fuel efficient... I know same old same old.... 😄

IS300h doesn't look good neither on paper nor whilst sitting inside... It is just unbearably slow car. Again it's competitor BMW330e does 0-60 in 5.9s - still sounds crap, but you cannot argue with performance. Oh and it cost much less to tax, you get government grant to buy it and you can get it on salary sacrifice via work and offset you higher rate tax - Lexus you can't.

Zotto · August 12, 2018

IS 300h is competitor for BMW 3 series Diesel, like GS 300h for 5 diesel too., and both are better.

doog442 · August 12, 2018

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

IS200t sound like dropping bunch of bolts into the can, the gearbox never find the right gear and they are so rare that any reasonable spec. costs fortune. Furthermore it not that much faster, neither it is fuel efficient... I know same old same old.... 😄

Yes the same old moan from you ..🤣..cant let it go me old mucker

I think we proved it was faster, quieter and more efficient than your old tub and has similar performance as all the major opposition in this bracket. As for never finding the right gear...I believe that was reported once in a motoring test drive ...I suspect you've taken that as gospel in your constant effort to have a dig as I've never come across it in two years of ownership. Its extremely smooth and quiet as any IS is and always has been.

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

35 minutes ago, doog442 said:

Yes the same old moan from you ..🤣..cant let it go me old mucker

I think we proved it was faster, quieter and more efficient than your old tub and has similar performance as all the major opposition in this bracket. As for never finding the right gear...I believe that was reported once in a motoring test drive ...I suspect you've taken that as gospel in your constant effort to have a dig as I've never come across it in two years of ownership. Its extremely smooth and quiet as any IS is and always has been.

It's performance nowhere near major opposition - poverty line BMW320d does 0-60 in 7.3s. The equivalent to IS200t is BMW 330i (2.0t) and it is much faster - if my memory doesn't lie it is 5.6s, not 7.5s. So sorry for shattering your illusion, but IS200t is not even in the same ballpark.

We established as well that it is 8 years newer design and 5 times more expensive, and for that only less then 1s 0-60MPH faster, slightly more fuel efficient ~5-8MPG mixed cycle... "quieter" is that your way of saying "sounds crap"? The interior build and material quality is not as good in mk3. It does not find right gear if you flour it from stand still, and sometimes even if you floor it from the go - it just doesn't seam to choose the best gear for the circumstances. Being fair and balanced - I would say that if you manually select the gear before overtaking it will have more mid range torque and will be faster for overtaking then IS250 and manual gear changes are overall much quicker. However, if you just leave it to do it's own thing either from stand still or whilst overtaking - then my comment stays as is - "it never finds right gear". It is smooth if you just cruising around, don't push it at all - yes it is smooth.. not as smooth as IS250 thought.

All in all, if mk3 IS200t and mk2 IS250 would have been both released back in 2006 and both would cost £4000 now - it would be able to argue that IS200t is better car, trade from refinement, to little bit more power, quality to little bit more toys... but that is not the case - IS200t value proposition is very poor.

To keep it relevant to "premium car/make" discussion - in my opinion IS200t is the 3rd least premium Lexus ever just after CT200h and IS220d

st4 · August 12, 2018

It's performance nowhere near major opposition - poverty line BMW320d does 0-60 in 7.3s. The equivalent to IS200t is BMW 330i (2.0t) and it is much faster - if my memory doesn't lie it is 5.6s, not 7.5s. So sorry for shattering your illusion, but IS200t is not even in the same ballpark.
We established as well that it is 8 years newer design and 5 times more expensive, and for that only less then 1s 0-60MPH faster, slightly more fuel efficient ~5-8MPG mixed cycle... "quieter" is that your way of saying "sounds crap"? The interior build and material quality is not as good in mk3. It does not find right gear if you flour it from stand still, and sometimes even if you floor it from the go - it just doesn't seam to choose the best gear for the circumstances. Being fair and balanced - I would say that if you manually select the gear before overtaking it will have more mid range torque and will be faster for overtaking then IS250 and manual gear changes are overall much quicker. However, if you just leave it to do it's own thing either from stand still or whilst overtaking - then my comment stays as is - "it never finds right gear". It is smooth if you just cruising around, don't push it at all - yes it is smooth.. not as smooth as IS250 thought.
All in all, if mk3 IS200t and mk2 IS250 would have been both released back in 2006 and both would cost £4000 now - it would be able to argue that IS200t is better car, trade from refinement, to little bit more power, quality to little bit more toys... but that is not the case - IS200t value proposition is very poor.
To keep it relevant to "premium car/make" discussion - in my opinion IS200t is the 3rd least premium Lexus ever just after CT200h and IS220d

Yes 328i is a fair bit faster and kind on the fuel but the engines barely last 60k miles - poor timing gear being a culprit.

Tech specs from auto trader have the 200t at 7 secs with a top speed of 143mph. I wouldn’t say it’s a slow car but hardly a ball of fire. It’s a bit disappointing the car won’t crack 150mph (a speed I do drive at when I go to Germany) and the 0-60 isn’t in the sixes or high 5s...but it’s not so off the pace to be ruled out. I reckon I drive 140mph plus a handful of times a year and if I find my gs250 good enough for overtaking (and working/living in NW Scotland I do that a lot) in confident an IS200T would be ok. I still think the 350 should be offered in the GS and IS. 310bhp is very premium

I drive a rav4 also a lot - and one of the things I like about it is that it has a manual box - I wonder if Lexus missed a trick there too and it would make it a more interesting alternative to a 300h. The 2005 RAV is about as unpremium as it gets but as a winter run about and going to the shops it’s refreshingly basic and fit for purpose.

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doog442 · August 12, 2018

56 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

It's performance nowhere near major opposition - poverty line BMW320d does 0-60 in 7.3s. The equivalent to IS200t is BMW 330i (2.0t) and it is much faster - if my memory doesn't lie it is 5.6s, not 7.5s. So sorry for shattering your illusion, but IS200t is not even in the same ballpark.

They weren't the opposition..

The IS200t blows that BMW diesel out the water btw and try getting a fully loaded 330i for the same price as an IS200t. Get on the BMW forums and look at the reliability of squeezing things out of a 4 cylinder BMW turbo

Must try harder mate..😂

This is the oppo and lets be honest none of us buy them for speed as they arent exactly a performance motor.....all 4 pot turbos

Jaguar 2.0 EX (6.7 )

BMW 3 series 320i (7.2 )

Audi A4 TFSI (7.2 )

Mercedes C class (7.3)

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

16 minutes ago, doog442 said:

They weren't the opposition..

The IS200t blows that BMW diesel out the water btw and try getting a fully loaded 330i for the same price as an IS200t. Get on the BMW forums and look at the reliability of squeezing things out of a 4 cylinder BMW turbo

Must try harder mate.

BMW 3 series 320i (7.2 )

Apples vs. Oranges - we are talking about how Premium car "feels", reliability has nothing to do whit it. Yes I admit - it is nice bonus, but reliability is not what makes premium cars as otherwise Toyota Corolla would be most premium car ever...

Yes IS200t blows 320d..320i never been on the same league as IS200t - it was like £8000 cheaper! that is because equivalent BMW is 330i. From new BMW 330i was about the same price as IS200t, but offered more options which are not even available on Lexus - so in the end you could get 330i for more then IS200t, but equally it would have had more options "on paper".

In reality I agree new BMW 3-Series feels very cheap inside and Lexus mk3 feels more Premium, BUT if we started making such "Apples vs. Oranges" comparisons - mk2 IS feels more Premium then both, not even considering it is much older model. And equally, try getting any IS mk3 for £4000!

doog442 · August 12, 2018

10 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

In reality I agree new BMW 3-Series feels very cheap inside and Lexus mk3 feels more Premium, BUT if we started making such "Apples vs. Oranges" comparisons - mk2 IS feels more Premium then both, not even considering it is much older model. And equally, try getting any IS mk3 for £4000!

I agree that the Mk2 felt good, slightly better and more refined than my Mark 1 but it was left behind, not in the comfort stakes but in the rapid world of competition that gripped the market back then and that was perceived luxury combined with economy.

steveledzep · August 12, 2018

17 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

how Premium car "feels", reliability has nothing to do whit it.

Of course reliability is a factor ! There are many factors contributing to a car's premium status. I agree with a lot of people here, the badge is the main factor in most people's perception of a premium vehicle. However, there are many premium badged models with unreliability built in. As George Orwell would say, " some are more premium than others ". The badge is not the be all and end all in my opinion, "premiumness" is model dependent too. Reliability is of paramount importance too. My RX will do for me 😊.

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

9 minutes ago, steveledzep said:

Of course reliability is a factor ! There are many factors contributing to a car's premium status. I agree with a lot of people here, the badge is the main factor in most people's perception of a premium vehicle. However, there are many premium badged models with unreliability built in. As George Orwell would say, " some are more premium than others ". The badge is not the be all and end all in my opinion, "premiumness" is model dependent too. Reliability is of paramount importance too. My RX will do for me 😊.

I will just quote myself:

On 8/11/2018 at 12:26 PM, Linas.P said:

... same as Jag - for long time they were one of the least reliable cars in existence - still "Premium". Quality and Reliability has nothing to do with perceived Luxury. I am sure that any Toyota or Honda is 10 times more reliable then Bentley or Royce-Royce, mid-90s, to mid-00s Mercs were notoriously unreliable cars - visualise CL600 most of which had massive defects whilst waiting on the dealers forecourts for potential buyers - are they not Premium then?

Just to add to it - quality/reliability is certainly "a factor" - but is not the one which defines how Premium/Luxury car is. It can affect used car prices (overall maybe that is more important for used cars), but it does not make them more Premium. Another example - very premium soft leather in Royce-Royce won't last as long as cardboard hard "leather" (probably more appropriate to call it vinyl) in Mercedes or BMW, but Royce-Royce with baby butt smooth leather is still more premium.

Back to CL600 (W215 shape) - it was notoriously unreliable car, not only that anything which could go wrong was notoriously expensive to fix, yet it was Mercedes flagship model - "as Premium as it gets".

Ben01 · August 12, 2018

35 minutes ago, steveledzep said:

Of course reliability is a factor

Sir, rusty merc SL500 2002 next to my zero-rust GS430 2002 at the parking yard at the moment has asked to urgent message you: "YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID" 😝

steveledzep · August 12, 2018

I'll take Verbout's advice on this one and leave it to you and Linas to argue between yourselves. I clearly don't have enough experience.

st4 · August 12, 2018

Apples vs. Oranges - we are talking about how Premium car "feels", reliability has nothing to do whit it. Yes I admit - it is nice bonus, but reliability is not what makes premium cars as otherwise Toyota Corolla would be most premium car ever...
Yes IS200t blows 320d..320i never been on the same league as IS200t - it was like £8000 cheaper! that is because equivalent BMW is 330i. From new BMW 330i was about the same price as IS200t, but offered more options which are not even available on Lexus - so in the end you could get 330i for more then IS200t, but equally it would have had more options "on paper".
In reality I agree new BMW 3-Series feels very cheap inside and Lexus mk3 feels more Premium, BUT if we started making such "Apples vs. Oranges" comparisons - mk2 IS feels more Premium then both, not even considering it is much older model. And equally, try getting any IS mk3 for £4000!

I don’t agree. A premium car should be

A) more reliable

B) last longer and have a longer service life.

One of my gripes with the Mercedes I’ve owned is how poorly made the car was - from rusting at 4.5 years old, to off rattles, to injectors and manifolds needing changed at little over 5 years old and leaking steering racks and random engine faults. Yes the cars were “nice” but they were also **** **** that shattered the illusion you owned a premium product that was worth paying a premium for.

If a car is worth a premium it is because it’s appeal lasts beyond having the latest reg and that it’ll give its owner faithful service long after the new car buzz has worn off.

A car is no good if it’s unreliable - and nothing takes the sheen off a car than seeing it rust when it’s new and watching it disappear onto a low loader as it’s failed to proceed. Toyota reliability should be a given in any upmarket car, not a USP - which it appears to be.

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Linas.P · August 12, 2018

27 minutes ago, steveledzep said:

I'll take Verbout's advice on this one and leave it to you and Linas to argue between yourselves. I clearly don't have enough experience.

You know, the forum is made for discussion and not all the people have same opinions - opinions doesn't need to agree and there are no reason to be offended. As I said reliability is a factor in general for better or worse car, but not for more premium or less premium. It can certainly make car more or less desirable, but not more or less premium. Some more premium features can make car less reliable and some reliable parts can make car less premium. In fact it is almost opposite with vintage/collectable cars - the less reliable ones are more expensive, because there are less of them left!

@st4 - you getting the Merc in the first place just adds to my point, you picked it-up because it looked and felt premium when new, in long run you realised it wasn't the best choice. Does it make the car less premium - no, it makes it less reliable, less desirable (when mid-age, but probably rarer when old)... Overall, premium cars are not most frugal choice and people who care about reliability are probably the ones who don't buy premium brands anyway - and I am generalising on the global sales respective, it might not be right for every individual. It is not even right for my...

I would summarise that there are reliable and unreliable Premium cars/makes, nevertheless they are all Premium. As there are reliable and unreliable performance cars - yet they are all performance. It is not like only reliable performance cars can be considered "performance cars".

st4 · August 12, 2018

You know, the forum is made for discussion and not all the people have same opinions - opinions doesn't need to agree and there are no reason to be offended. As I said reliability is a factor in general for better or worse car, but not for more premium or less premium. It can certainly make car more or less desirable, but not more or less premium. Some more premium features can make car less reliable and some reliable parts can make car less premium. In fact it is almost opposite with vintage/collectable cars - the less reliable ones are more expensive, because there are less of them left!

I get your point but not in the case of new cars. Ferrari now even offer the ability to extend the warranty and breakdown cover to 7 years as even the top 1% don’t like breakdowns and unexpected bills.

Mercedes marketed themselves on a maker of premium cars that would give their owners a hassle free long service life due to their superior build. I got the car(s) thinking I was getting a superior product that would give me not only a nicer car but also something that would give me more hassle free motoring compared to a non premium make- not less hassle free. I drive on rural bumpy roads and do a big mileage - robust build is a must. I’d expect it from a Mercedes less so a Ford.

They trade off that reputation now but selling Renault engine transverse mounted crap won’t do them any favours long term - neither will building their cars using poor components either - people will catch on

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Ben01 · August 12, 2018

To "reliability party" - it does not matter how badly are you offended by me or by existence of Mercedes, but still: Mercedes outsells much more reliable Lexus 3 fold, or even more. And nobody with minimum sanity argues Mercedes is no premium brand nor most of their fleet are non-premium cars. Yes, maybe long term they will be dead like disco for today inferior quality, but I heard this in 1998 too when A klasse rolled over into the scene, or later when they started to paint C-klasse such ecolololo people have seen the raw metal thru, on brand new premium cars. After such 20 years Mercedes as brand looks still pretty alive for the corpse, and I don't think it will be much different in next 20 years.

BTW unreliable Merc, Jag etc. - is the Alfa Romeo premium or luxury brand or not?

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

Actually, once I hired a car Full size luxury saloon which meant to be "C-class or 3-Series equivalent" and when I arrived to Portugal they game me Alfa-Romeo 156 Estate... I am like "what the hell is that" and they looking surprised "yes we consider Alfa as premium"... I am like "for***** sake - so what if I go to Russia - they will give me Lada because they consider it 'Premium' or in India maybe they will give me a 'donkey'..." after a bit of discussion they would not budge and in the middle of the night in the airport I didn't have much leverage - either to take car or walk away.

So partially to answer your question - I do not consider Alfa as premium, nor I guess most of Britain, but it could be argued that is "premium Italian" as Citroen is "premium french" .

@st4Good point about reputation, maybe reliability affects brand reputation, but not how premium it is? Now think about very public Lexus airbag issue (which wasn't even Lexus fault at all) - imagine how that looks and sounds to average Joe and what brand image it creates - "those Lexus with exploding airbags" - people don't do research, don't do fact check are ignorant and I am certain most would still answer that Mercedes is one of the most reliable cars or that German cars are reliable even though it is factually incorect.. More reliable then French and Italian - yeah perhaps... In short - what you think are facts.. is not necessary common knowledge and what makes car premium is Public perception which will always be ill-informed in reality.

Ben01 · August 12, 2018

Linas, valid point, topic is "... these days", but it should be "... these days and this place".

My similar anecdote is not about premium, but once upon a time I was the same, at the Polish airport hire in the middle of the night and after a bit fight, instead sit into "focus or golf equivalent" they pressed me into Renault Fluence, unholly brood of Renault and Samsung, made in Turkey, I think. Monsters.

rayaans · August 13, 2018

10 hours ago, Ben01 said:

To "reliability party" - it does not matter how badly are you offended by me or by existence of Mercedes, but still: Mercedes outsells much more reliable Lexus 3 fold, or even more. And nobody with minimum sanity argues Mercedes is no premium brand nor most of their fleet are non-premium cars. Yes, maybe long term they will be dead like disco for today inferior quality, but I heard this in 1998 too when A klasse rolled over into the scene, or later when they started to paint C-klasse such ecolololo people have seen the raw metal thru, on brand new premium cars. After such 20 years Mercedes as brand looks still pretty alive for the corpse, and I don't think it will be much different in next 20 years.

BTW unreliable Merc, Jag etc. - is the Alfa Romeo premium or luxury brand or not?

Mercedes has more heritage and many models. It appeals to the masses especially with the tiny Renault engines in A classes and they have become affordable on hire purchase/finance

Additionally they have a low entry cost. Most of the Mercs on the road today have very poor specification. Many people get the cheapest Merc they can afford and add 2/3 options on it.

Not to mention the diesel love in the past few years which helped to boost their sales. A lot of these Mercs with diesel engines are hardly refined at all.

Ben01 · August 13, 2018

Yeah, me and you, enlighted people from LOC, know what mercedes is and even my wife has laughed in disbelief on this rusty abandoned SL500 next to our door, BUT: is the Mercedes still premium? I feel, yes for 99% people "these days" and this place/country, so it proves "Reliability is not very important for Premium". End of story.

(edit) BTW it is valid anecdote about perception of Merc too - there is a bit rusty SL500 2002, with fancy plate, literally abandoned for more than week, on semi-public parking next to us; it stays on flat tyre (at minimum). I met our landlady for other stuff at the parking last days, and I asked if this merc is known or from neighbourhood? and she was "What a nice car! Oh, is flat tyre.", and I was "WTF? from what PoV is this nice car.". And conclusion was nobody knows what and why it is here. But you know, "what a nice car!".

dutchie01 · August 13, 2018

What is the cheapest new premium car on the market today?

Debating the top end of the market is not so interesting as we all know the Cullinans and Bentaygas. The discussions so far seem to be about what qualifies or not and various models have passed by. But what about todays new cars? how much do you have pay to have an entry in the premium world?

Could it be Mini? BMW sells them as premium against premium prices. You can easily add 25% of the value of the car in options as well, so...

Or Fiat 500? also here the special editions do look special and are specially prices as well. And what about the cheapest base version of the new 5 series? order one without extras and in base trim/engine and it is not much more expensive than the most expensive mini.. Is it the Lexus IS300H? not too expensive in base trim and it does have a certain premium feel about it? Audi A5 in base trim with smallest engine? or do we need a six for premium feel so the BMW 140?

any suggestions?

Linas.P · August 13, 2018

I think the easiest way to answer is to simply state that "badge is what it makes it premium" aka "public perception" as such BMW would be premium, Mini would not be premium even though they might be similar in value.

Otherwise, it is not really possible to agree universal rule. Some will say reliability, I will say it must bet at least V6 and must be RWD, some other people going to have different views...

doog442 · August 13, 2018

3 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I will say it must bet at least V6 and must be RWD, some other people going to have different views...

That's an extremely polarised view and very outdated but as you say its all about opinions. I'd argue it doesn't reflect modern society.

Your average lady driver for example (a large percentage of the buying population ) doesn't care whats under the bonnet or if its RWD. To them its the badge be it Mercedes, Range Rover (for higher earners / more wealthy) and with the younger generation Mini is absolutely considered a premium car.

noby76 · August 13, 2018

things even get more confusing when people confuse premium car to automatically mean Luxury(comfortable) car... then get disappointing when they actually find out how difficult it is to live with long term once the 6 month new car novelty wears off and realise how hard/stiff the suspension setup is on a daily basis then start playing around with different tyre brands and wheel sizes in order to rectify the problem.

The gap between high end and low end car manufactures has closed that the words premium and luxury has lost its true meaning.

few quotes from the article below

"In order to be considered a luxury car, the vehicle must have high-end features that go above and beyond the average necessities."

"The term luxury is used to categorize vehicles that are equipped with better performance capabilities, lavish interiors and all the latest safety and technology features"

Pretty much all car manufactures models can be spec'd with such toys.

"What it comes down to is that there is no clear definition of what makes a luxury vehicle, luxury. It’s mostly in the eye of the beholder"

Which means e.g. can a Ford Mondeo Vignale owner say they own a Luxury car? without the BMW driver laughing?

http://www.certifiedautoplex.com/blog/what-is-considered-a-luxury-car/