What Makes a Premium Car these days?

Ala Larj · August 10, 2018

I have been interested in the stinger and also infiniti as possible replacements for my GS but regardless of performance and looks neither feels 'special' inside with inferior quality materials and components. I wouldn't classify either as premium despite the fact they may be decent cars and reliable to boot.

Ben01 · August 10, 2018

2 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Maybe Premium has a different meaning to different people.

Obviously. I made very stupid survey today - I asked my wife and daughter how they defined "premium car", let's say with three main factors or "traits". Adult daughter (zero petrolheadness) defined them as "extremely comfortable, quiet and very good looking". But wife (mildly petrolhead) was killing me: "heated windscreen, heated steering wheel, seats memory" 🤨 when I argued it is bloody specific she has retort "other stuff is obvious"

Vlady · August 11, 2018

9 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

so vlady, here is the million dollar question.

would you prefer a genesis above a comparable sized lexus?

Or do you rate them as similar or inferior?

At this moment of time I would stay with my GS as I love how comfy it is and Genesis was more on a sporty side.

Before I bought my GS I test drive a Jaguar XF S Portfolio, apparently previous owner traded it in for Kia Stinger!

rayaans · August 11, 2018

To the vast majority..... The badge on the bonnet. Simple as that really.

Hence you have people rolling around in a Merc A class 😂

rayaans · August 11, 2018

5 hours ago, rayaans said:

To the vast majority..... The badge on the bonnet. Simple as that really.

Hence you have people rolling around in a Merc A class 😂

And to build on this.... Is a Merc A class a premium vehicle? It certainly doesn't have build quality matching even a VW Golf and arguably the driving experience is better in the Golf too as it has a more comfortable ride.

Linas.P · August 11, 2018

23 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

If reliability is not quality than all my alfas that broke down must have been top quality

No "top quality", but it could be considered Luxury/Premium - same as Jag - for long time they were one of the least reliable cars in existence - still "Premium". Quality and Reliability has nothing to do with perceived Luxury. I am sure that any Toyota or Honda is 10 times more reliable then Bentley or Royce-Royce, mid-90s, to mid-00s Mercs were notoriously unreliable cars - visualise CL600 most of which had massive defects whilst waiting on the dealers forecourts for potential buyers - are they not Premium then?

In other hand I can objectively compare my current courtesy car (2018 BMW 3-series with 700miles) to my old Lexus IS250 - and it is day and night, BMW feels cheap inside, all knobs, handles, covers, vents are similar quality and feel to some rental Toyota Auris I drove abroad recently. However, that is same feeling when I get into any courtesy car from Lexus dealer e.g. CT/IS/RC - they feel cheap compared to previous generation Lexus'es - not "Dacia cheap", but probably "Toyota cheap", wheres older Lexus feels whole class above any other cars in the segment. Hmmm so what I am trying to say here - currently Lexus feels more Premium then say equivalent BMW, but not as Premium as it used to be.

@Ben01 - interesting points about Japanese culture and I tend to agree with you on the culture, but I tend to disagree with you on this culture being applied for Lexus. First of all Lexus is not that Japanese - the brand is more American (not European certainly), main markets are US/Middle east (not EU or Japan) so I tend to believe "master culture" is limited on Lexus. Secondly as for JIT - most car makers are JIT now, see Brexit dialog about how important is timing for car production Nissan, BMW minis and 1/2-Series built in UK... still Mini's have one of the most customisation of most cars - that is called "mass customisation" (MC) in production terms and in mass customisation JIT becomes even more important. I don't believe Lexus/Toyota cannot scale their JIT to enable MC - I tend to believe they are just getting lazy and profit driven. As for parts on shelf - they do have them and it has nothing to do with JIT or culture e.g. US delivered RC/IS has much more interior colours, wheels selection, optional extras etc. How to explain that?

Ben01 · August 11, 2018

Linas, very valid point about quality!=premium, I forgot to clarify this in "reliability" subtopic.

I disagree about "Lexus is not Japanese now" or "enough", to echoing Japanese master vs. customer tradition. Does this guy look American for you?

(Yoshihiro Sawa, Japanese native, boss of Lexus, with Toyota since 1980).

All main Toyota and Lexus decision makers are old school Japanese; Tahara Plant is home of production of Lexus flagships, especially LS, for decades; any promising concept, even if designed in USA or elsewhere, is moved to Aichi Center to finalise (like LF-LC became LC500), etc, etc.

Don't mistake their focus on the American or Middle East or any market with "become American" or "Saudi". Lexus is still Japanese "family", still with vision set up by Toyoda decades ago. Yes, they adapt, change, rebrand toyotas, but in the core it is still Japanese company and management.

In my mind explanation by different cultures is slightly more probable than "Toyota is lazy and non-customer friendly, BMW or VAG is opposite" 🤣

About JIT etc. - as I said, it's difficult to guess and I am not sure. But on the other hand, as far as I know, Toyota JIT compared to other manufacturers JIT often is like their JIT compared to NHS JIT...

st4 · August 11, 2018

And to build on this.... Is a Merc A class a premium vehicle? It certainly doesn't have build quality matching even a VW Golf and arguably the driving experience is better in the Golf too as it has a more comfortable ride.

A golf isn’t a premium vehicle either. They’re such over hyped cars it’s unreal.

You can see the door paint on the door frame inside the car in both an A class and Golf. Audi at least put some plastic trim on the door frame so you don’t see the paint inside their equivalent car. I’d argue with cabin materials and trim a high spec a3 is worthy of being considered premium but a Golf and A class aren’t and are driven by £300pm hire car pilots. Probably so is the a3 but it’s the nicer car at least

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dutchie01 · August 11, 2018

I do think that almost 99% of people entering a mercedes showroom will think the new A class is a premium vehicle. If the showroom with all expensive cars does not give it away the electronic dash will blow their minds. The A is part of the entire mercedes family so the brand image is also valid for the smallest member. BTW i think the new A is a decent car i did not like the previous one much but the new one seems a better car,

on topic again, i remembered a saying from the previous end boss at VW about developing the VW Phaeton. this is to show how important it is for a car manufacturer to be seen as premium as only 1 halo car will effect the entire range. He ( Piech) commented on the incredibly expensive developmentcosts of the pheaton by saying = if i can charge 10 Euro more for a golf as we have a phaeton in thesame showroom we have succeeded.

royoftherovers · August 12, 2018

Thinking it is a Premium car and realising that it isn`t, will be an earth shattering moment.

Shared engines and bodyshells coupled with unreliable elctronics, unwelcome road noise and inconsiderate Dealers,soon shatter the illusion.

rayaans · August 12, 2018

12 hours ago, st4 said:

A golf isn’t a premium vehicle either. They’re such over hyped cars it’s unreal.

You can see the door paint on the door frame inside the car in both an A class and Golf. Audi at least put some plastic trim on the door frame so you don’t see the paint inside their equivalent car. I’d argue with cabin materials and trim a high spec a3 is worthy of being considered premium but a Golf and A class aren’t and are driven by £300pm hire car pilots. Probably so is the a3 but it’s the nicer car at least

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I didn't say the Golf is a premium vehicle. They would be classed as mid-range I guess. And you don't pay £35k for a Golf unless going for a top spec one unlike the A class which has worse materials - some plastics are Renault spec.

You see the paint on the door frame in plenty of cars including BMW 1 series which is also supposed to be a premium vehicle.

I'm sorry but the Golf is an absolutely brilliant car. Doesn't shout, just gets the job done at a reasonable price. Denying it is just idiotic.

A premium vehicle is based on badge as I said before. Stick a BMW badge on a Kia Stinger and it'll instantly be premium

To top that off, most cars are driven by hire car and finance pilots including BMW 1 series, Audi S3s etc etc.

Ben01 · August 12, 2018

Discuss is difficult because we all mess "premium brand" or marque and "premium car" or particular vehicle (VW Phaeton is a premium car but far away from premium brand, BMW 1 series is far away from premium car, but it is still premium brand).

BTW I have a feeling this kind of "mismatch marketing" is not working now. I like Piech text "if Phaeton gives 10 euro on every Golf, we win", but it does not work like this anymore, I think. It was like that in '70 maybe '80, but in all "westernized" modern societies social and economical stratification are back to some XIXw models; and in particular subject - target groups for big automotive brands (which try to cover "all segments" in sake of greed and lower costs), premium or not, are very distant. And gaps between those target groups become huge now. Target of CT and LS, Lupo and Phaeton, 1 series and 7 series, what exactly they have in common? two hands, two legs, one head, one Iphone? because not a job, welth, education, neighbourhood, ideas, etc. so common part is epsilon, near zero. The "premium factor" of lexus LS or S klasse encourage poorer people a little to CT or A merc, the "peasant factor" of CT or A klasse discourage rich people a little from LS or merc S.

It looks like "badge factor" (Lexus or VW) still exists, but only as a very artificial historical-marketing construct, in very distance from any real premium (LS or Phaeton) or real non-premium (CT or Lupo) cars.

Welcome to the world of simulacra?

st4 · August 12, 2018

2 hours ago, rayaans said:

I didn't say the Golf is a premium vehicle. They would be classed as mid-range I guess. And you don't pay £35k for a Golf unless going for a top spec one unlike the A class which has worse materials - some plastics are Renault spec.

You see the paint on the door frame in plenty of cars including BMW 1 series which is also supposed to be a premium vehicle.

I'm sorry but the Golf is an absolutely brilliant car. Doesn't shout, just gets the job done at a reasonable price. Denying it is just idiotic.

A premium vehicle is based on badge as I said before. Stick a BMW badge on a Kia Stinger and it'll instantly be premium

To top that off, most cars are driven by hire car and finance pilots including BMW 1 series, Audi S3s etc etc.

A Skoda Octavia does a far better job than a Golf for less. I've sampled the range from R to GTi to 1.6Tdi and 2.0Tdi. I really don't get the fuss, not that refined, lacking space, not special feeling but costs a fair bit. To be fair I'd apply that to most hatches though. A Focus, Civic, Auris all do the same as the Golf for less. I wouldn't have another Merc, out of 4 two have been pretty unreliable and my fathers 6yr S class throws up more faults than a pals 12 yr old Range Rover.

At the least the 1 has a north south engine and rear drive with ZF 8speed box so it has drive trains associated with more upscale cars, particularly the 3 litre options which are the only worth while 1 series to have.

A Kia Stinger is a premium vehicle, in trim, drive train, size and price and segment positioning. It doesn't need the BMW badge to be premium

dutchie01 · August 12, 2018

I dont think a stinger can be a premium vehicle as it is a Kia.. Producing wheels for the masses will never create a premium brand. The Stinger in itself can hit all the right boxes but as long as it is a Kia it will never be regarded as premium.

Toyota created Lexus as premium brand. Just as nissan did with infinity and hyundai with genesis. Volvo is now also having a go with polestar. If the brand lacks heritage, history and image thats the only way of doing it?

Oh how complicated have things become, i can remember the days when a BMW dealer only had 3-5-7 series in the showroom, when small cars were small because they had to be cheap thus were lacking any kind of luxury. The amount of models in most brands are now almost impossible to remember!

rayaans · August 12, 2018

3 hours ago, st4 said:

A Skoda Octavia does a far better job than a Golf for less. I've sampled the range from R to GTi to 1.6Tdi and 2.0Tdi. I really don't get the fuss, not that refined, lacking space, not special feeling but costs a fair bit. To be fair I'd apply that to most hatches though. A Focus, Civic, Auris all do the same as the Golf for less. I wouldn't have another Merc, out of 4 two have been pretty unreliable and my fathers 6yr S class throws up more faults than a pals 12 yr old Range Rover.

At the least the 1 has a north south engine and rear drive with ZF 8speed box so it has drive trains associated with more upscale cars, particularly the 3 litre options which are the only worth while 1 series to have.

A Kia Stinger is a premium vehicle, in trim, drive train, size and price and segment positioning. It doesn't need the BMW badge to be premium

A Skoda Octavia is in a different segment entirely. If you want a decent hatchback which is relatively small you'd be looking at Golfs, A3s etc.

The Golfs are more refined than BMWs current 3 series and have better build quality.

But again it all comes down to badge. A Kia will never be a premium vehicle until it makes a spin-off premium marque and builds vehicles which are only premium.

Mercedes, BMW and Audi are starting to dilute the brand image by making cheaper and cheaper vehicles in search of sales

I can understand Merc doing it, but BMW already has MINI to do that and Audi have VW, Skoda etc.

But we're going round in circles. A premium vehicle is defined by the badge on its bonnet. It doesn't matter if you have a Mercedes or BMW but is it anything compared to a Bentley badge? Not really

talaipwros · August 12, 2018

premium car :

Branding

Internal quality perceived feeling ( leather/soft cabin feeling/overall layeout)

Road noise, cricks and other noise

Suspension, smoothness, cornering

Specification ( no, not every satnav is the same, nor every cruise control or HUD or even screen quality)

Avoiding using AA every other day helps to keep the premiumness

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

33 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

Volvo is now also having a go with polestar. If the brand lacks heritage, history and image thats the only way of doing it?

Volvo Polestar is more like AMG/M-Division, it is not entirely separate brand (although AMG was at some point separate brand - remember Mitsubishi Galant AMG?). Volvo itself doesn't lack "Premium'ness" and they don't really need separate brand to look like Premium. That is mostly to do with 90's safest car image and just simply being distinct and much more expensive then mid-tier Mondeos, Passats and even A6's, but just little cheaper then 5 Series, E-Class. I guess brand image was dented a little bit in late 90's and early 00's with Ford ownership with increased number of small and cheap cars... surprisingly now owned by Chinese Geely Volvo seems tha have refocused on premium cars, because they price are certainly not low and not middle-tier.

st4 · August 12, 2018

43 minutes ago, rayaans said:

A Skoda Octavia is in a different segment entirely. If you want a decent hatchback which is relatively small you'd be looking at Golfs, A3s etc.

The Golfs are more refined than BMWs current 3 series and have better build quality.

But again it all comes down to badge. A Kia will never be a premium vehicle until it makes a spin-off premium marque and builds vehicles which are only premium.

Mercedes, BMW and Audi are starting to dilute the brand image by making cheaper and cheaper vehicles in search of sales

I can understand Merc doing it, but BMW already has MINI to do that and Audi have VW, Skoda etc.

But we're going round in circles. A premium vehicle is defined by the badge on its bonnet. It doesn't matter if you have a Mercedes or BMW but is it anything compared to a Bentley badge? Not really

A BMW 3 series is miles more refined than a Golf. A Skoda Octavia is the same car underneath the skin and bar being a bit longer competes with the golf within the same family car segment. I've sampled many Golfs - they aren't great cars IMHO.

I agree the A class, 1 series etc are too cheap and diluting the marques - I'd say that offering 4 clyinder engines in mid size cars like the 5 series was the beginning of the end...

dutchie01 · August 12, 2018

volvo created polestar as a separate brand they will release several stand alone models 3 already announced creatively called 1,2,3.

according to the md of polestar this was done to protect the strong volvo image which will be brought one step further on the premium ladder to compete head on with mainly audi but always staying close to the brands uspś .

Polestar enables volvo to experiment with drivetrains/styling/architecture and obove all ownership as the cars can only be attained over the internet with a subscription so NO dealers.

talaipwros · August 12, 2018

1 minute ago, st4 said:

I'd say that offering 4 clyinder engines in mid size cars like the 5 series was the beginning of the end...

Isn't the GS300h 4cylinder engined?

Linas.P · August 12, 2018

11 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

volvo created polestar as a separate brand they will release several stand alone models 3 already announced creatively called 1,2,3.

according to the md of polestar this was done to protect the strong volvo image which will be brought one step further on the premium ladder to compete head on with mainly audi but always staying close to the brands uspś .

Polestar enables volvo to experiment with drivetrains/styling/architecture and obove all ownership as the cars can only be attained over the internet with a subscription so NO dealers.

No different to AMG63,43 ect. Which doesn't follow MB standard model designation, or BMW M1, M3, M5, Lexus RC-F, IS-F (instead of IS500) so on and so forth. Polestar is Performance car division - that is all it is. Stand alone models, hell yeah - MB AMG GT?

12 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

Isn't the GS300h 4cylinder engined?

Yes all 300h are l4 - and that is very reason I don't like them, they sound meh... very efficient indeed, but that is not exactly what makes car to feel "premium" for me - roaring V8, yes! smooth V6, yes! High MPG - well that is a bonus, but same as reliability not part of Luxury or Premium car.

st4 · August 12, 2018

Isn't the GS300h 4cylinder engined?

Yep. Imho 4 clyinder engined don’t belong in cars as big as the GS. In a small car like an IS they’re almost acceptable but not in a large upscale saloon. I’d take a 4 pot Camry because it’s not a premium car nor is it pretending to be one.

The Americans get much better GS options with the 350 and AWD option and the 250 I have is lovely but I’d much rather have the 3.5, 4.6 or 5.0 as that’s really the sort of engine size a premium large car has.

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Linas.P · August 12, 2018

4 minutes ago, st4 said:

In a small car like an IS they’re almost acceptable but not in a large saloon.

Agree - in IS is not as much of an issue it is l4, but more that it is under-powered. I would still take V6 any day, but if Lexus would make IS300h to go to 60MPH in 6.5s I would not complain as much.

rayaans · August 12, 2018

4 hours ago, st4 said:

A BMW 3 series is miles more refined than a Golf. A Skoda Octavia is the same car underneath the skin and bar being a bit longer competes with the golf within the same family car segment. I've sampled many Golfs - they aren't great cars IMHO.

I agree the A class, 1 series etc are too cheap and diluting the marques - I'd say that offering 4 clyinder engines in mid size cars like the 5 series was the beginning of the end...

Are you having a laugh?

Have you driven the latest 3 series and the MK7.5 Golf? The 3 series has more road noise and engine noise(dependent on engine) than the Golf.

It might be one of the best handling saloons in its segment but it's certainly not miles more refined than the Golf is.

The Skoda Octavia might be the same car underneath but it doesn't have the same level of sound deadening etc. Skoda cut corners and use parts that VW used a decade ago.