What Makes a Premium Car these days?

[dutchie01]

that might well be true Noby.  The youngsters in my village think of the hyundai kona as a premium car as it has apple car play, parking360degrees cameras, super stereo, 3d satnav, and all other goodies as standard. How about that? i am middle aged and have different qualifications for luxury or premium i tend to look at old world brands first.

 

 

 

[noby76]

11 minutes ago, dutchie01 said:

that might well be true Noby.  The youngsters in my village think of the hyundai kona as a premium car as it has apple car play, parking360degrees cameras, super stereo, 3d satnav, and all other goodies as standard. How about that? i am middle aged and have different qualifications for luxury or premium i tend to look at old world brands first.

 

 

 

which even flips the script... based on the article, e.g. a Ford Vignale owner with all the Luxury goodies can say to a Merc C class owner with bare bone base trim model their car is not a Luxury car? since the article says and i quote

"What it comes down to is that there is no clear definition of what makes a luxury vehicle, luxury. It’s mostly in the eye of the beholder"

[Linas.P]

34 minutes ago, doog442 said:

That's an extremely polarised view and very outdated but as you say its all about opinions. I'd argue it doesn't reflect modern society. 

Your average lady driver for example (a large percentage of the buying population ) doesn't care whats under the bonnet or if its RWD. To them its the badge be it Mercedes, Range Rover (for higher earners / more wealthy) and with the younger generation Mini is absolutely considered a premium car.

So you basically called my view outdated, just to rephrase my post and ultimately say the same thing? I know people who considers Golf as Luxury or Premium... so what?

BTW I realised today what is wrong with IS200t gearbox - it is not gearbox problem at all, BMW320d does exactly the same thing (with it's 7 speed auto) - the problem is in tiny turbocharged engine which has narrow power band, meaning that you are never in the right gear to be on power and gearbox keeps trying to put-it in the right gear... but because power band is narrow, by the time gearbox sticks into say 4th, you already off the throttle and then by the time there is gap again in the traffic it already has it in 6th - never gets right. 

[st4]

I think the easiest way to answer is to simply state that "badge is what it makes it premium" aka "public perception" as such BMW would be premium, Mini would not be premium even though they might be similar in value.
Otherwise, it is not really possible to agree universal rule. Some will say reliability, I will say it must bet at least V6 and must be RWD, some other people going to have different views... 

I agree but mini would be seen as premium. The price tag relative to the size of the car positions it as a “premium” product in the sense that it costs a good chunk more than most mass market small cars.

A mini tends to be good do drive, and you can option in some nice stuff. I don’t like small cars particularly but it’s the sort of car a well to do family would buy for their daughter going to uni or a graduate trainee might buy as opposed to a Dacia.

Me, I’d rather drive what I drive than a mini.

I used my RAV4 to go to the shops today but then went for a longer run out in the Lexus. The GS is absolutely a premium product. The Toyota I have is much older, but more functional and it does everything you need but it’s not a car you could ever want. The Lexus absolutely is and that is something that makes a car premium.

It’s about want rather than need, it’s about form as well as function. I don’t need a car as fast, refined or comfortable as the Lexus but I sure as hell want to have one and as soon as “want” as opposed to “need” enters the equation it becomes a premium product and that’s more subtle than badge appeal. A Kia Stinger is a premium product - it’s a car you buy because you want one. An Optima is a car you buy because you need one for the space.

A little like Fillet beef. Burgers do the job but why eat burger when you can have fillet of beef.


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[doog442]

31 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

So you basically called my view outdated, just to rephrase my post and ultimately say the same thing? I know people who considers Golf as Luxury or Premium... so what?

BTW I realised today what is wrong with IS200t gearbox - it is not gearbox problem at all, BMW320d does exactly the same thing (with it's 7 speed auto) - the problem is in tiny turbocharged engine which has narrow power band, meaning that you are never in the right gear to be on power and gearbox keeps trying to put-it in the right gear... but because power band is narrow, by the time gearbox sticks into say 4th, you already off the throttle and then by the time there is gap again in the traffic it already has it in 6th - never gets right. 

I remain absolutely amazed at your in depth knowledge of a vehicle based on a 20 minute test drive (plus a BMW sponsored magazine review)

Were you driving it eco mode...I guess so. 

The V6 thing is blokish and antiquated....the market has moved on and peoples perceptions have moved on likewise.  

[steveledzep]

6 minutes ago, doog442 said:

the market has moved on and peoples perceptions have moved on likewise.  

Good point.  Linas is still with his 12 years old IS250.

[Ala Larj]

What about the Aston Martin cygnet? Is that premium?

[NemesisUK]

I'm being torn between a premium car being one with heritage and one that offers something over and above the norm. 

Premium these days must be something over and above the norm?

[st4]

Premium these days must be something over and above the norm?

I would think so. Premium is about want rather than need. It should be more durable and reliable, faster and/or quieter etc as you’re paying more for it



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[Ben01]

9 hours ago, Ala Larj said:

What about the Aston Martin cygnet? Is that premium?

IMHO it is Aston joke vs. EU bureaucracy only. They had to sell some lo-emission cars to balance V12 sales volume, so they made a joke "lets take smallest cheapest cars from the current market and sell them with cushions and 3 times price tag". Ta-da! Cygnet! It is not premium vs. not-premium case, it is fight on "creativness" between ecological lawmakers and manufacturers looking for loopholes.

[Ben01]

9 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

I'm being torn between a premium car being one with heritage and one that offers something over and above the norm.

IMHO "heritage" means nothing in context, is another term for "perception of brand" (simularcrum). And there is some kind of fallacy here: what if somebody brings totaly new premium brand without heritage (like lexus in late '80 - reason of very existence of Lexus was to cut any perception and mental connections to common toyotas in '80 US especially).

I think second part (over and above) is most valid. And this is core issue - it is necessary and essentialy condition, but in public and personal PERCEPTION of norm and what is above norm, not in reality. And on later level of this game, people are stupid "pattern recognition" monkeys and they project this perception to other "similar" objects, like "merc CLA with tiny diesel is similar to premium mercedes car" 😐

[Ben01]

2 hours ago, st4 said:

It should be more durable and reliable

Sorry, you stubbornly back to this, I have to back to this - how exactly "reliability party" measures durability and reliability of brand new car at Lexus dealership, or any dealership? How do you know if new LS500 WILL BE reliable and durable, except "I HOPE it will be reliable like elder LSes"?

I may logically argue "any GS430 2002 (better - with same week of production) like mine, but with lower mileage and better service history than mine, would be same or more reliable as my GS". But on the brand new models, and even after liftings, new suppliers for parts, etc? How you validate new cars reliability? except broader "I love and trust Lexus", of course. Or "BMW". Or "Mercedes Benz". But why we call it "reliability".

[noby76]

10 hours ago, NemesisUK said:

I'm being torn between a premium car being one with heritage and one that offers something over and above the norm. 

Premium these days must be something over and above the norm?

Thing is most modern cars are well equipped these days, so what is really classified as over and above the norm?  do you mean power?, comfort? quietness?, Luxury Toys?

[Ben01]

7 minutes ago, noby76 said:

what is really classified as over and above the norm?  do you mean power?, comfort? quietness?, Luxury Toys?

As I understand this point: anything you could compare with any "norm", and in enough "scopes" to impress and to convince public and their perception? ("enough" is difficult to define here, but nobody expect quiet Lambo and people complained about quiet lexuses or audis; it always could be more toys; etc etc) Sometimes creative marketing included, of course.

[NemesisUK]

10 minutes ago, noby76 said:

Thing is most modern cars are well equipped these days, so what is really classified as over and above the norm?  do you mean power?, comfort? quietness?, Luxury Toys?

I think one can forget the electronic gizmos. Two a penny these days.

Comfort, quiet and luxuriously appointed cabin is a must. As is effortless progress.

[noby76]

4 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I think one can forget the electronic gizmos. Two a penny these days.

Comfort, quiet and luxuriously appointed cabin is a must. As is effortless progress.

LEXUS LS600/460? (i have heard LS430's are better comfort wise?)

VW PHAETON

AUDI A8

MERC S CLASS

BMW 7 SERIES

Jag XJ L

I would like to think these would offer what you are after?

 

[NemesisUK]

I'm not after anything 🙂

Just interested in other people's opinions on what defines premium. Been an interesting debate 👍

[st4]

Sorry, you stubbornly back to this, I have to back to this - how exactly "reliability party" measures durability and reliability of brand new car at Lexus dealership, or any dealership? How do you know if new LS500 WILL BE reliable and durable, except "I HOPE it will be reliable like elder LSes"?
I may logically argue "any GS430 2002 (better - with same week of production) like mine, but with lower mileage and better service history than mine, would be same or more reliable as my GS". But on the brand new models, and even after liftings, new suppliers for parts, etc? How you validate new cars reliability? except broader "I love and trust Lexus", of course. Or "BMW". Or "Mercedes Benz". But why we call it "reliability".

Good design and engineering and using good quality components ensures reliability and durability. Time is the test but certain makers have a knack for making reliable cars and others don’t.


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[noby76]

5 minutes ago, NemesisUK said:

I'm not after anything 🙂

Just interested in other people's opinions on what defines premium. Been an interesting debate 👍

I think the flagship models are the ones which offer that little extra in terms of Comfort, quiet and luxuriously appointed cabin which cannot be found/ not included on purpose in the models below them.. that's why a premium price tag is attached to them..

[Ben01]

Another markup I have just figured: premium car should be defined by "these days, this place and time", but by the age of target group too. Because perception of premium car, even here and now, by grumpy me or lexus buyers (IIRC it was a moment the average rand new lexus buyer was 60yr old?) and by 25-30yr old people, probably are very different.

And, in fact, probably in every dimension which define our perception - economical and social environment, our status, age, gender too (gasp, run, a hide).

[Ben01]

15 minutes ago, st4 said:

Good design and engineering and using good quality components ensures reliability and durability

Do you quote Jaguar 1988 dealers, or smth? 🤣 and what do we know about "design and engineering" details of exactly LS500 or LC500? Anybody who really buy them now is interested in quality of plugs and sockets, insulation of wires? dig into rubber in suspension parts, or design of it? Etc.

Let's don't fool ourselfs - everybody like reliability, and keep hope for max reliability, for his/her hard gained money, but with the brand new products there are only hope and marketing promises.

[Linas.P]

16 hours ago, doog442 said:

I remain absolutely amazed at your in depth knowledge of a vehicle based on a 20 minute test drive (plus a BMW sponsored magazine review)

Were you driving it eco mode...I guess so. 

The V6 thing is blokish and antiquated....the market has moved on and peoples perceptions have moved on likewise.  

 

16 hours ago, steveledzep said:

Good point.  Linas is still with his 12 years old IS250.

I had IS200t for whole Saturday, drove around East, South-East England - Motorways, fast A/B roads and some city traffic in London ~600miles, same for RC300h... as for BMW - I have it now for 4 days, drive daily to work, been to East cost during weekend, did 750miles so far and will keep it for another 2-3 weeks, because my 12years old IS250 is sadly a write-off for now.

V6 or V8 has nothing to do with being blokish or antiquated - first of all what is important is whenever engine is NA or forced induction. I prefer wide and late power band of NA engine and I prefer sound and smoothness of the engine and lineal power delivery. This smoothness is what you want in Premium car - not jerky small volume turbo engine which is rarely on power, but kicks you in the head and brakes your neck when it gets there.

[Vlady]

17 hours ago, Linas.P said:

So you basically called my view outdated, just to rephrase my post and ultimately say the same thing? I know people who considers Golf as Luxury or Premium... so what?

BTW I realised today what is wrong with IS200t gearbox - it is not gearbox problem at all, BMW320d does exactly the same thing (with it's 7 speed auto) - the problem is in tiny turbocharged engine which has narrow power band, meaning that you are never in the right gear to be on power and gearbox keeps trying to put-it in the right gear... but because power band is narrow, by the time gearbox sticks into say 4th, you already off the throttle and then by the time there is gap again in the traffic it already has it in 6th - never gets right. 

Linas I thought turbo petrol has bigger power band than diesel cars, especially 2.0 ltr ones, fair enough they don't have as much toque as similar size diesel but the power range (torque and bhp graph) should be wider. I drove a VW Polo (rental car on holidays) with small turbo petrol (1.4 probably) and manual gear box and it was very flexible engine.

Also you mentioned BMW does have a 7-speed auto gear box, never heard of it, I thought they were all 8-speeders auto, again, I might be mistaken though as was never seriously considering a turbo petrol engine before so never looked into it properly.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, Vlady said:

Linas I thought turbo petrol has bigger power band than diesel cars, especially 2.0 ltr ones, fair enough they don't have as much toque as similar size diesel but the power range (torque and bhp graph) should be wider. I drove a VW Polo (rental car on holidays) with small turbo petrol (1.4 probably) and manual gear box and it was very flexible engine.

Also you mentioned BMW does have a 7-speed auto gear box, never heard of it, I thought they were all 8-speeders auto, again, I might be mistaken though as was never seriously considering a turbo petrol engine before so never looked into it properly.

Yes you right it is 8 speed auto, not 7. But then it is incomparable with manual gearbox anyway - my point was that automatic gearbox have a choice of 8 gears to use and it tires to predict what you want, but never gets it right (that is the problem). On manual gearbox - you know exactly what you want and therefore you will shift to the gear you want, you are not predicting anything + I guess it was 5/6 gears manual so obviously you had much longer gears and wider power band in each gear to play with.

Petrol turbo engine have wider power band then diesel ones, but still nowhere near as wide power band as NA engines. Furthermore, when you see power curve of the engine that is usually done on the engine without drive train (i.e. no gearbox connected) and only from say ~2500-3500rpm to rpm limiter e.g. on diesel engine you would get hp/Torque curve for 2500-5500rpm which disregards gearing etc. and it would look rather smooth (on top they will apply smoothing as well). The realistic power delivery will be much more spiky in entire rev range even within the single gear, never-mind throughout all gears.

[doog442]

5 hours ago, Linas.P said:

and will keep it for another 2-3 weeks, because my 12years old IS250 is sadly a write-off for now.

 

A write off 'for now' ...?

Its either a write off or not .If it is then please do us a favour and buy a car from a manufacturer that you won't moan and bitch about  I mean criticise until the cows come home.

Obviously it won't be a Lexus.😏