Are ls400's worth restoring?

[Malc]

7 hours ago, Matt1986 said:

Do I repair or not?

well, removing the tape might look a lot better .  and have a simple non expensive repair job done by your local guy ...........  £400 seems a bit steep, try him with 50% of that 

Malc

[billy-whizz]

Very interesting discussions here...and loads of valid points made about long term viability.  All I can offer is a couple of anecdotes:

In 1983 I restored a 1973 Triumph Stag.  It was a nightmare and I had to make internal components for the wiper motor by cutting up an old credit card.  The Stag was a lovely car with well-known terminal flaws in it's time....but no longer.  Now thirty years later modern day specialists have solved all the problems and the car is a joy to own.

A few years ago i restored a 1965 Ford Thunderbird.  This had a few problems over the years which nobody could solve, especially rear indicators with a serious fault in the original design.  Now some clever specialist has made a modern electrical component which solves all the issues.

I am currently restoring a 1958 Plymouth, (Christine).  In the years that these cars were just old junkers they also had an almost terminal problem with the remote gear selectors.  All are now solved and modern technology is keeping all these cars active, fresh and on the road.

I am also refurbishing a 2006 Chrysler 300C, which has a number of design faults.  because of the internet and owners forums all these problems are solved, parts manufactured and the cars are more reliable than they were when tehy were younger.

 

Bottom line is, all our cars will survive if there is enough interest.  They are fabulous cars and there will always be someone out there who will solve a problem.

 

The LS will be a classic as it's the first of it's type from Japan:  a true Mercedes/Jaguar competitor.

[Newbie1]

Matt, my LS400 sounds like it's in similar condition and over the past year I've spent a fair bit on suspension work, servicing and under body protection. It was worth it because the under body was very, very clean. Most of the items you identify are par for the course for any older car. I need some paint done but it doesn't bother me unduly as the car is so damn heavenly to drive. I've formed a bond with this car, as has my wife, and several splendid driving holidays means I am saving for the paint work. It doesn't all have to come at once. 

As for longevity, I expect in 10 years time these old barges will only be able to be run on a classic dispensation of some sort and won't be viable daily drivers. Only the best examples will be kept by enthusiasts. If you want a top notch one, import a Celsior that hasn't seen any salted roads.

[Ben01]

Geoff, you right some elder models are easier to fix now than in dark zone of "too old to be easy to fix, too young to be classic and supported". But still, this way they are far away from "original", if somebody cares about. And even if somebody does not care, where is borderline? Modern radiator? shafts from audi '07 not BL '70? different engine? better transmission? whole suspension? home grown interior? and why bother ourselfs with frankensteins like this and pretend to be "classic", when there are so many fine cars outside the garage?

From my point of view, if I would have to rebulid my lovely car from scratches, with half of critical parts new, manufactured or from bettern/modern cars, I would build something totaly own, let me think, better version of jag XJ220 😝

[dendonc]

19 minutes ago, Newbie1 said:

and under body protection.

What treatment have they used? I'm probably going to get mine done Sept or Nov & my preferred specialists use Dinitrol, they do a lot of Land Rovers & it's in Landrover country & that's what mainly me decide on them, it's 495 quid + VAT for a 'medium' vehicle. Another one uses Waxoil but I've read around & seems some mechanics might not want to work underneath areas with that on.

[Newbie1]

I went with dinitrol. Have not had great experience of waxoyl products. I also went for a clear coat on the underside so I can see anything nasty, which the black stuff hides.

[dendonc]

OK thanks, I see your in London, was it in Herts by any chance?

[Malc]

14 hours ago, dendonc said:

What treatment have they used?

hahahahaha,....................  at first I thought you might be referring to some of us owners ...............  our strange mindsets in keeping these dear old ladies on the road 

Malc

[dendonc]

On 7/25/2018 at 2:27 PM, Matt1986 said:

Am I the only one who wants to turn back the clock on these beasts?

These sort of  decisions are always an individuals choice, my choice wouldn't be spend the money on a car, after seeing 77 year old Cliff Richard on TV this past week my choice would be to put the money towards seeing whoever gave him his face lift & fly off to LA to get mine done, I find the thought of the new facelift dendonc model quite appealing.

[plastic orange]

I'm in a similar position with my 1999 dhp model. Bodywork and interior are really good apart from some rust creeping along the top of windscreen which will be a window out job to do properly (they all seem to suffer from this) and underside just needs a tidy up. It is however the electrical glitches which are attacking it just now, and getting spares from a similar aged vehicle would probably fail. When the next thing fails, I just weigh up if it is liveable or not and so far it is, but it really puts me off putting money into the car as I'll be expecting another failure. So far, the air con doesn't work, sat nav failed, steering adjust recently failed (adjusted wheel to desired position by removing motor, moving position and reattached). Suspension needs work (front UCA's), and I can't find new dhp springs as one has broken at the bottom. For next mot it will also need some brake pipes.

I only use the car now for longer trips as it's my economy car lol, but I have 4 other cars to look after too - my wife's RX 300, a 53 chevy bel air and 2 x V8 Morris minors. Surprisingly, everything is available off the shelf for my 3 1950's cars, and reasonably priced compared to the Lexus. 

I really like the LS, and have had it for 9 years, and it could relatively easily be made mint, but should I?

 

Pete

[dendonc]

38 minutes ago, plastic orange said:

but it really puts me off putting money into the car as I'll be expecting another failure.

Yes, when we got these (can still get the odd good one) we got them nut just for their comfort but for the thousands of miles trouble free motoring, but, as they got older this & that needed doing, if we used lexus parts phenominal cost, imports subject VAT & customs duty (not much less than VAT, & parts difficult to get anyway, So, from a trouble free car many of them evolved into a problematic costly car to own.

[Malc]

and your thoughts please for a trouble free and expense free model from Mercedes, BMW, Audi or indeed any other marque ?

They don't exist 

Malc

[Ben01]

34 minutes ago, Malc said:

They don't exist

In broad view, any car reliable enough, but simpler and cheaper in parts and labour, of course. Lets say, even if she break down twice as lexus, it could be easy 5x cheaper to keep them running. Half of Japanese elder cars could be a lot of fun and a lot cheaper. In toy-zone: mazdas mx5, hondas civic, maybe prelude.

In big RWD barges, any elder american beat any japanese or european competition in costs of parts and labour, and half of them (not lexus! 😉) in reliability. But of course there is a reasons - they are simpler, not such refined, they are closer to 50HP/l than 100HP/l, and quality is lower. And mpg are rather poor 😄. But elder mustang, camaro, thunderbird, half of pontiacs, even crown victoria and siblings, could bring the big banana on the owner's face, and there is a half of electronic to break and twice a steel to rust vs. lexus or audi, and mechanics could be bulletproof (but be aware - not EVERY americans! do your homework first! especially on chryslers...)

But still, some day you have recognised there is no ECUs for this pontiac, no springs for ford, no brake discs for honda, etc. both sides of the pond. End of story for normal people with normal money for car-toys.

[dendonc]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

and your thoughts please for a trouble free and expense free model from Mercedes, BMW, Audi or indeed any other marque ?

They dont exist, which is why  went to Lexus in first place, 'longer' life but not an eternal life. I think  first joined this forum about 2009 or something like that, there were lots of LS400 owners on here then, now hardly any

[Matt1986]

2 hours ago, dendonc said:

They dont exist, which is why  went to Lexus in first place, 'longer' life but not an eternal life. I think  first joined this forum about 2009 or something like that, there were lots of LS400 owners on here then, now hardly any

I wonder how many ls400 owners are actually lurking on here. Must be a few hundreds judging by the veiw count on some topics. 

I think everyone has made good points. I too bought an ls400 because of the reliability factor. Yes they will have issues as they age but compared to similar era jags mercs etc. They are pretty reliable but yes not eternal. 

I'm taking the view point that even if I keep spending some money just to keep her going it's still a cheaper hobby than playing with golf bats😂

I'll carry on but just keep up the maintenance until such time as it's to far gone. They won't last forever but as long as I still love driving mine I'll keep her going. 

 

[Ben01]

53 minutes ago, Matt1986 said:

I wonder how many ls400 owners are actually lurking on here

This has kicked me to look af howmanyleft page, and it is stunning: LS400 are in two "groups", and aprox. 1800 on the road and 1000 SORN in total. This is A LOT in my mind. And ratio SORN/roadworthy is very high, means nobody like to scrap LS (normal on SORN is like 10-20% of elder model, not like 35% of LS400).

BTW GS430 2gen like mine is much more exotic than LS400 now (but much worse SORN/road ratio...), interesting 😎

[Malc]

9 hours ago, Ben01 said:

1800 on the road and 1000 SORN in total.

and the youngest of these is now 18 years young .... so there's a real collectable feel to these cars then ?

Malc

[Matt1986]

So how many were there to start with? I'd be interested to know what percentage of the total made are still in existence! 

[Ben01]

There are no digitalized data before 2001 I think. But you could try to interpolate yourself:

https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=lexus+ls400&commit=Search

[Ben01]

On 7/27/2018 at 10:09 AM, Cotswold Pete said:

When I had an Omega having jsut spend a few bob on suspension only to have  the engine blow 10 weeks later, I know that feel of 'What the Heck'.

Exactly. With the elder cars on the "other side" of "bathtub curve" of maintenace and with reasonable budget, it is always a lot of "fun" to deliberate "Would I spent X coins on exhaust or suspension or interior? on second thought they are not so bad yet, and what if I will need a half a grand for breaks or transmission next month?".

And remember remember, there are public roada and traffic, not a museum, in worst case scenario yout freshly resprayed and refusbished car could be totaled next day (my favourite record - friend who has just paid and received in theory perfectly refurbished dreamcar, but in practice lost the brakes ON THE GATE of workshop. Crash, car totaled, anger and fight with workshop over case, police, insurers, court, costs, one way or another the car gone etc). And even in best case and with my anti-sunken-cost-fallacy attitude, I feel a little odd, when I scrapp the car with brand new Y exhaust (first GS) or sell nice GS with fresh MOT (second one), because I just found better Lexus 😉

[Spacewagon52]

A really interesting topic and discussion. When you decide to repair or say goodbye to a car is a very personal choice. The bar can be quite low for some people (ashtray full!).

 

I think the key questions to ask yourself are:-

1) How much will it cost to get the car to a condition I will be happy with?

2) Is it worth spending that amount when another similar car can be purchased?

3) Can you be bothered to chase parts and wait for repairs?

4) Your own “gut” feeling will tell you if it is time to let go.

I like Malc’s attitude – blow the cosmetics, if it rides well and is roadworthy then keep it.

I only remember driving one classic car, which was in very good condition. It rattled like an empty tin can and I thought the brakes were faulty (non-servo). No matter how it looked I could not live with driving around in that car. The LS400 IS something special. I sold my Mk3 after one year of trouble free ownership and I always said I would have another. But there must come a time, when for the individual, the car is no longer acceptable.

In the cold light of day Malc’s approach is the sensible one but I am not sure I could let my LS go to the point it looked shabby. I have great admiration for those that spend hours on their cars and to those who choose to pay others to bring them up to a good standard.

My next job (just had front discs and pads done) is to get the wheels refurbished. Will it make the car run better? Frankly no, but to me I think it will be worth it. It is all down to personal preference. I am far less concerned about my RX300, as I know that I can get a later model if it goes pear-shaped. The LS400 is getting old now and good examples are hard to find - and at a cost.

[Malc]

10 hours ago, Spacewagon52 said:

is to get the wheels refurbished.

I first ventured to enquire about this from a local " good guy " about a year ago now and have held off since coz .......  well, I don't know, maybe spending £260 .  is it worth it, well not really, BUT maybe after this next trip away ...........  a month touring Ireland in September/October, say 2500/3000 miles, then maybe I shall .  but by then I'll be saying, well, after the winter .  and then we're back around to maybe a next big trip spring into Europe or summat .......  I don't know

what i do know is I'm totally decisive about my indecision 

Malc

[Spacewagon52]

1 minute ago, Malc said:

I first ventured to enquire about this from a local " good guy " about a year ago now and have held off since coz .......  well, I don't know, maybe spending £260 .  is it worth it, well not really, BUT maybe after this next trip away ...........  a month touring Ireland in September/October, say 2500/3000 miles, then maybe I shall .  but by then I'll be saying, well, after the winter .  and then we're back around to maybe a next big trip spring into Europe or summat .......  I don't know

what i do know is I'm totally decisive about my indecision 

Malc

As I have said, it will not make the car feel any different to drive. Is £260 worth spending on cosmetics? Again in one way it makes no sense but in other ways it does!

A Lexus LS 400 is not about getting from A to B - It is the journey that is the most important part. A Trabant will get you from A to B but who wants to travel over 1 mile in one of those?

 

Owning a Lexus LS 400     " ....it is not a matter of life or death ..... it is much more important than that." 

 

[Ben01]

Sad contribution to the topic, friend's ford "fugly" scorpio, 20yrs old, very last edition of European hi-end ford before "mondeo only" crap. Maybe 10 like this left in the country, she was keeped in  mint shape and condition, with passion and expenses. Literally today, vs. random moron in seat. Think about this, before you try to keep lexus or any car "forever" on the road.

[Spacewagon52]

35 minutes ago, Ben01 said:

Sad contribution to the topic, friend's ford "fugly" scorpio, 20yrs old, very last edition of European hi-end ford before "mondeo only" crap. Maybe 10 like this left in the country, she was keeped in  mint shape and condition, with passion and expenses. Literally today, vs. random moron in seat. Think about this, before you try to keep lexus or any car "forever" on the road.

Valid argument I am afraid.