Are ls400's worth restoring?

[Matt1986]

Hello all, I'm having to ask myself some tough questions about the viability of my plan to go beyond maintaining it and restore my 1998 ls400 to as close to perfect as possible over the next few years. My question really is, is it possible to keep one long term i.e the next 20 years as a genuine classic or is the nature of its complex and aging electronic and mechanical systems going to kill them all in the end? Will the cost just be to much to get the parts or will they simply become unavailable? It's not exactly a MK1 cortina in its simplicity.  

I ask because I'm pouring money into mine at the moment but if it's not really viable maybe I'd be better to just save my money and upgrade to a 430 or similar. I love my car but I'm worried that's clouding my reasoning! 

Am I the only one who wants to turn back the clock on these beasts? 

Mine also needs a lot of work as it's 20 years old. Bodywork, a respray, fully rebuild suspension. Rust treatment etc etc. I'm worried I'll get half way in an discover I can't get any further and have a very expensive paper weight. 

Thanks. Matt

[Malc]

I'm just maintaining mine as she goes really.  209k and 23 years young now .  had her 7 years and 86k miles .  and i had a Mk1 and a Mk2 prior ........... 17 years with an Ls400 now

MOT times show likely spend the next 12 months and I simply factor that into the equation.

This year i had the cambelt, pulleys and waterpump changed so that monster bill is out of the way for 10 years / 100k miles I reckon

There's a new rear UCA due for the next MOT, about £300 all-up and maybe the MOT next time, May 2019 will show summat else major........  hopefully for the following year MOT

I really enjoy driving my car, so reliable and comfy.

Consumables like tyres and brakes, oils and filters are with any car whatever you have.

Running our Ls400s is modest costwise compared to any new car or a BMW Mercedes or big VW or Jaguar I reckon

 

Her bodywork and interior is quite OK for day to day use, no major dings or dents or scrapes or tears in the leather

No immediate expense likely ahead of me to my knowledge.

I know i'll never want to spend £100k on a new one even if I  did win large on the lottery

And for you, buying an aged Ls430 won't get you any closer to having a future classic like  Mk1 GT Cortina ............  ordinary Mk1 Cortina's are quite crappy cars .  I had one almost new 50 years ago !

I'm quite ok running our old technology car with zero depreciation and supreme comfort and reliability  ....  maybe I'm a dying breed, lots hope so  ...........  hahahahaha 

Don't try to get perfection, if you do some sod will scrape a key down her or you'll have some inevitable car park whack that will upset you hugely

Enjoy her as she is

Malc

my 1932 triumph car has idiosyncracies that I hate and often fear the drive ahead with her .........  simple technology but often a real pain in the whatever .  and hugely uncomfortable to boot !

[Matt1986]

Yes I agree Malc on the cost of ownership. I have had brand new cars in the past and it's cost a lot more to run a tiny eurobox in payments every month than my ls400 for sure! 

I suppose I just have to be willing to keep her up to scratch and if she dies she dies. I keep getting something fixed and then it's something else but I say to myself I've put so much in already I might as well sort this issue as well. 

 

Shes had timing belt etc done in 2012, new alternator and ps pump last year. ECU is next on my list and new engine mounts.

The main thing that lets mine down is actually the Paint. It's had a bad respray done in the past but i didn't notice when I bought it. Maybe I could wrap it in something suitable at some point. Painting is expensive! 

I'm not after a show car but looking clean and in good nick would be good. Want some 430 five spoke wheels as well when I can afford it.

I have an issue of knowing when to stop with this stuff. I'd nut and bolt restore it if I had money to burn I'm sure! Just to see what it was like to drive brand new. Must have been special as after 20 years on the road they're still fantastic. 

[Ben01]

From my experience, with complex barges like LS, never ever think you could keep them "original" for next 20 years, means 40yrs from production. Even next 10yr will be difficult. You could handle steel, most of mechanical parts, but plastics, rubber, etc. will be detoriated faster and faster, in used parts at scrapyards too. Next, electronics will be really troublesome, as ICs and glues and soldering not stay for much longer than 20-30 years, again, in used parts too. So even canibalization is not an option at the end, because you will know this module or sealing is broken in every still existing example. And if you start to manufacture sealings, supension parts, or brake discs (true story, let me introduce you to honda s-mx) or refurbish old ECUs etc. you will need sheik's money.

And next, imagine you will get a buyer or a oldtimer specialist who laugh on you and call you a liar about "original" car, as car is resprayed, welded, with adapted shock absorbers (ori were not manufactured since 1999), electronics were patched a few times and interior is in two shades of original colour.

About "classic" approach, it is different problem, every car could be called classic, there are fan clubs of moris marina and renault clio mk1 and ford sierra mk1 and any cars, perhaps all those cars are "classic" for owners. But this means nothing for publics, it is other version to say "I like this elder car a lot", yeah, we get it. They are not ferraris nor porsches, they are not emotionally loaded "classic" cars in public perception and LS or GS neither.

But do what makes you happy. As once upon a time friend of mine planned to spent like a half of price of brand new loaded ford focus to buy mint '90 ford granada and "keep her forever" and I was "What's the point, pal" - "It makes me happy" - "End of topic". By the way, I should check if he still has this granada...

[ambermarine]

This is a valid question but there is also the hidden threat as to how government regulation will effect the future of these early models,with the emphasis on green energy and electric cars will they one day ban these so called monster engines and old tech from the road s which will have the affect of making them worthless.

I have the good fortune of owning probably the best example of the mark 4 in the UK and it cost nothing apart from consumables to run and with 39k mileage unlikely to need anything replacing anytime in my lifetime .

So to answer your question honestly ,I would not spend any money on yours other than the need to keep it on the road and enjoy it for its being .

[GrahamG]

How much the car is affected by rust might decide the issue for me and whether I have a garage to keep her in. I would have the wheel arch liners out for inspection and have it up on a lift with a strong light to inspect especially the rear sub frame and sills.

Would not want to pour money into  a car that I knew rust was eventually going to destroy especially if kept outside during our winters.

Once rust has set in there is no longer the option to simply have the car 'treated' in my experience.

For that reason I let go my '95 Mk III which I loved and changed to my current '04 Ls 430 which I would not change for the world.

[Matt1986]

Some excellent responses from you all on this so thank you for that.  I think Ben hit the nail on the head with these things. Eventually it will all fail and will be impossible to replicate without a mountain of cash, and even then for what? A 30 year old ls! 

 

Ok so change of plan. Run and maintain it with decent preventative work. But nothing stupid like resprays. Enjoy it with its battle scars hope the rot doesn't kill it too quickly. 

At the moment it's got no visible rust on the body or sills but does have some crusty rust on the subframe and under the boot seal. Which is annoying. Nothing mentioned on the not get about it though

[dendonc]

Maybe you could check around every few days to see what Ls400's are for sale, if you do a DVLA history check on the number to see if there are corrosion issues, 

heres todays link:

https://bit.ly/2LNwAlu

.

.

[Malc]

2 hours ago, Matt1986 said:

Ok so change of plan. Run and maintain it with decent preventative work.

that's the way to go  

Malc

[ls400lpg]

mine is a 1999.

At 175,000 i have changed all the front suspension almost last 2 years. Loads of stuff to do to make it perfect.

Why because it is a legend in the making.

Also as I do 30,000 miles approx shared between my work car and Lexus. Ask yourself how many LS400 do you ever see on a road....And when you do you say to yourself "Gosh that's a nice looking car" not realising that you are in one......

[Ben01]

7 hours ago, ls400lpg said:

mine is a 1999.

So imagine your LS is first one from 1989 NOW and you want to keep her running and in good shape. And nobody exept you and three other fans think "gosh that's nice looking car", inside or outside. And it is more and more difficult to find a parts and services, and your welder guy is your best friend by now. This is your LS in 2028.

Lets say, I and many friends of mine were like you with old fords. Everything was possible up to 250k miles or 25 years, "we keep her forever" (in the case of LS quality is better so it could be a bit longer, like 30 years). Next most of people have given up (me - year ago finally), and moved to slightly newer similar comfy barges, like me into lexus. Only rich enough and Asperger's enough stay with '80 big roadworthy fords.

(too long lecture about life and Universe and no-attachment ways cut here)

When I am elder and elder, I less and less care about particular EXAMPLE, next MODEL, next MANUFACTURER even of the car. They are mass produced cars on public roads, so nothing is unique (or safe) here, only our emotions (not because emotions are unique, but because they are ours). I care about idea "big powerful comfy saloon" (with deviation in "coupe" sometimes), because I have fallen in love of cars like this since I was teenager, and this KIND of cars make me really and deeply happy, not particular car. BTW it is near impossible know yourself without experience, without owning 20 different cars and daily using another 20, in many shapes and colours and insurance bands.

Path of "I love THIS car" is fine, but could become path of more and more suffering and sadness (it was very sad day when the lorry pick up my "THIS car" to scrapyard). Or, like friend mention above, who bought mint '80 ford - on his path in his beloved car was drunken speeding driver in crappy peugeot, who hammered his first beloved Granada into banana shape.

But if you rich and/or stubborn enough everything is possible, of course. You could send your car into the hight orbit too 😉

[Cotswold Pete]

In my mind will any of the cars with spohisticated electronics be classics in the future, is down to two things.

1. Did Lexus, Audi, BMW, etc, use special IC chipsets in the control systems, if they did when these fail they would be hard to replace (in theory you could get someone to re-fabricate a chip). It would in theory be possible to build a new ECU that used more up to date software mapping techniques to 'copy' what the current electronics does.  Neither option would be cheap.

2. The people who understand earlier generation firmware/hardware/software systems as they pop their clogs the new generation would have lost the knowledge and skill to even attempt to fabricate or scratch build such systems.

This is why the Vulcan bomber does not fly, because the knowledge of its ancient electronics is making it hard to make do and mend.

One could argue that if enough old lags pass on their knowledge then keeping LS400s (etc) running as long as a Ford Model T is possible, but not cheap by any means.  I doubt whether in 50 years time there would be enough LS400/430/460 enthusiasts around to form a core of knowledge to keep these beasts going, but then again the valve stereo amp never quite died, and enough people revived the art of valve tech, (and vinyl, come to that), such that it is enjoying a resurgence.  However there are probably more valve/vinyl lovers than there are Vulcan/LS lovers out there in the planet.

A great shame, but no doubt any LS still around in 50 years time will be a classic, whether it would be better than the LS800 (or whatever is around then) is probably no different asking is a Triumph TR2 a better drive than a TR7, or a SC430.

[ambermarine]

You are so right Ben regarding futuristic perceptions ,I had a 1990 LS for 18 years and watched it corrode away in front of my very eyes over the years and apart from the mechanicals being kept on top of the chassis and underframe became so badly corroded that she had to go.

The lesson learned on her bode well on the mint replacement in that I coated this one from top to bottom in preservatives and it as paid off, but the trick is prevention rather than cure and to achieve that you need a very good example in the first place.

[Ben01]

46 minutes ago, Cotswold Pete said:

Did Lexus, Audi, BMW, etc, use special IC chipsets in the control systems

Bingo. I am not sure about a Lexus/Toyota exactly parts, but what I know about subtle programming differences for Lex/Toy and from my common practice with Japanese industry electronics (hitachi on my desk today and mitsubishi at the workshop) they LOVE to bulk order specialised ICs and in Japan it was very common and cheap practice. And next you have a big very high quality industry controller (PLC) still working, but somehow with broken comlink. And everybody included local dealer is "Oh, it is easy fix, some MAX or other 232C IC to replace". And next everybody recognise this small comm IC totaly and definitely NOT EXISTS in any database and supplies. And next local dealer called me "Yeah, Hitachi Japan confirmed, it is spec-IC for their internal customized order, no way to find it on the market, but they still keep some 15yr old stock. So we could sent this controller to Japan for refurbish, or I could offer you sort-of compatible controller, 10x more powerful and brand new, in same price as their quote for fix".

And of course, everything is possible, we could piggyback any ECU, we could fix any programme. But it is simple not worth it. And even if it is worth it in personal oppinion, immediately forget about any "originality" in public perception. Not everybody is landing like Chris Evans with his "original" California, but even I had a nasty comments and situations on my fugly cars "orginality".

41 minutes ago, ambermarine said:

The lesson learned on her bode well on the mint replacement in that I coated this one from top to bottom in preservatives

And thank you, I remember I forgot something, and this is it - I have to buy big box of any and every preservatives, and pour them on current GS. Its big, bad and ugly, and I don't care but why not keep her with a few pounds without perforation, for a moment 😉

[Tinonline]

As always wise words here in the replies so here’s my half-penny worth.

If you don’t want to do anything given the work...sell it on. I have same dilemma with my S type Jag which is just such a b to work on. I’m fed up and want to get rid but it’s wife’s charriot. Gearbox needs work and aircon pipe is a good £700 quid fit and despite my prowess 🤭, is not a diy job. Tell me that’s not going to be a stinking great classic as a 4 ltr. But in whose lifetime? 

Or, run and do essentials: some years will be worse than others. 

I ‘d have to spend 2k to on paint, dents, wheels on my LS 400 but boy the rest is very good.

If I, we, just put away per month, a good amount for repairs etc. We’d always have a budget. Only if life was so simple...

This issue is why cars get scrapped...what a complete waste of resources. Get 2nd hand parts except obvious: brakes, suspension joints.

If you can work on some yourself and have a realistic mechanic/body shop you will be well served.

Ok, so don’t think about the value of the car. May be more about the cost of running a vehicle with repairs...even new cars have that. I pay less  when I hear of £1000 repairs to modern motors...

My LS 400 cost me £750 quid. The Return on investment...depends...but no capital loss really. I’d get that back.

[Malc]

and then summat happens that writes the old girl off .....  notwithstanding all the money poured into her the insurers will have an upper figure at which they won't budge ... and that might be well short of what you think she's worth and the money spent on her over recent times to make her pristine

Vide my Mk2 some 7 years back, fantastic condition, low mileage BUT vandalised to write-off and the insurers paid out a really fair price to me at that time which enabled me to buy my Mk3 and have £500 in the bank !

They went on OEM parts and stuff to replace ...........  wiper mechanism, wipers and blades from Lexus OEM ...........  about £1000

4 x new tyres about £500  ( anyone )

Total respray etc .......  mega bucks ( quote about £5k )  ....................  you get the drift ?

 

easy peasy to get way past market value at that time, they paid out £2k less excess of £100 for a vandalism claim and my Mk3 cost me £1400

Love her to bits and do all the preventative stuff that's good to go BUT it's only a car and there's always another just around the corner for one to buy !

Malc

[Ben01]

2 minutes ago, Malc said:

it's only a car and there's always another just around the corner for one to buy !

Amen for this. And it should be a motto for every petrolhead, who has budget much lower than Jay Leno or sultan of Brunei.

[Matt1986]

I think you have all said what I was already thinking but didn't want to believe. I've also definitely fallen into the trap of " well I've already spent X or fixed X so I should probably just carry on as I'm in so deep now". It makes far more sense for me to actually buy another than repair the damage to mine. Maybe sell her for parts and get a cleaner example? It pains me to take one  off the road  that "could" be repaired though. The laundry list is long. 

To repair accident damage to rear quarter panel is £400 and will still have **** paintwork. New exhaust y pipe that's leaking. New engine mounts, pulleys, refurbish the wheels. ECU caps suspension bushes. The list goes on. Hmmm. 

[Malc]

34 minutes ago, Matt1986 said:

exhaust y pipe that's leaking

just £30/40 to weld by someone competent ! ..............  and replace the suspension stuff when it actually needs doing or becomes an Advisory on the MOT .......  there's many ways to mitigate the immediate costs...............  my front offside UCA is still fine at 209k ...........  the n/s was replaced a few MOTs ago 

And don't think that whatever else you buy that's " pristine " today won't need this sort of maintenance anyway a few days/months down the line 

Maybe you worry a little too much

Malc

[Ben01]

It is not about a worry, I think, it is about "economy of emotion". Because, yeah, there are small cost yet and not immediate, YET. But point is, in next years it will be, more and more, and more often. Some day it will be fuel pump, cats, snapped spring, more and more, small or rather not so small bills. And Matthew is perfectly right about cost trap (in neuroscience: sunken cost fallacy), man, this is common people issue on anything, from any "drive A to B car" to toxic ideologies and toxic spouses.

Other important question is how milage you have yearly, you could easy keep any car to 2060, in the dry garage. But I have on my GSes like 15k miles/yr or more, over Scotland. And I dont have time and/or money for private car museum.

[Matt1986]

1 hour ago, Malc said:

just £30/40 to weld by someone competent ! ..............  and replace the suspension stuff when it actually needs doing or becomes an Advisory on the MOT .......  there's many ways to mitigate the immediate costs...............  my front offside UCA is still fine at 209k ...........  the n/s was replaced a few MOTs ago 

And don't think that whatever else you buy that's " pristine " today won't need this sort of maintenance anyway a few days/months down the line 

Maybe you worry a little too much

Malc

Yes I do worry to much Malc 🤣

 

The flanges on the y pipe are actually not that bad but there are about 10 small holes in it all along which I keep patching up. Sounds like a tank when they are all blowing lol

[Matt1986]

To be honest. This is my main issue. My wife decided to have an argument with a low wall and lost. Going to cost about £400 to repair. The rest of the car is running ok but this looks terrible.  Do I repair or not? What would u lot do? 

[cornershop]

IMO - depends on what the rest of the car looks like and how far you want to go.

If you spray the rear quarter only, it may show up against adjacent panels. Blending light colours is tricky.

[Matt1986]

The rest of the car has chips and marks. There's other scuffs and it's going to need a new driver door at some point due to having had a door skin at some point in its life which is not starting to rust at the seams. The more I say this stuff out loud the more.mad I think I am to consider doing any work on it. 

[Cotswold Pete]

My view would be to patch it up and make sure rust does not take hold, though would be a few years before the rust is really eating into the body work.

I have same issue as this with about £400-£600 worth of respray needed for keyed doors, a tree strike on rear pillar (big dent), and pock mark on the bonnet, front buffer scuffs from inconsiderate numpties in car parks.

I washed and waxed up the car a few weeks ago, and realised that the car has chicken pox (lots of small chips), and looks like really a almost full on respray would be the only way to get the car looking tip-top.  I would say having shined the car up, it looks not that bad even though it has lots of damaged paintwork.

Also the interior leather needs a good going over, the steering wheel needs a recover.

So if I came into a few grand tomorrow, I would get it all done, as that would still be less of a cost risk than investing in another LS.  So until I win some cash, I am coming to live with my semi-battered LS.

When I had an Omega having jsut spend a few bob on suspension only to have  the engine blow 10 weeks later, I know that feel of 'What the Heck'.