Ownership of a car

jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

There is a bit of ambiguity. How can one know who is owner of the car if v5c is not proof of one?

E..g I am buying a car from a private seller, and there is no way of knowing if he she is the owener... other than word of mouth.

What if I buy the car and next say someone claim his is the owner. Or I get into crossfire of wife and husband...

Verbout · June 22, 2018

Registered keeper is not necessarily the owner.

Who are you dealing with? It’s all about asking questions of the seller.

Who is the owner of the vehicle?

Can I speak to the owner?

Are you at the address on the log book? Rather than a meet on a car park.

Is the car undervalued?....Etc, etc, etc as a king once said.

Plenty of people sell cars on behalf of someone else.

If in doubt walk away.

rayaans · June 22, 2018

47 minutes ago, jackcramerr said:

There is a bit of ambiguity. How can one know who is owner of the car if v5c is not proof of one?

E..g I am buying a car from a private seller, and there is no way of knowing if he she is the owener... other than word of mouth.

What if I buy the car and next say someone claim his is the owner. Or I get into crossfire of wife and husband...

You need an invoice from when the car was bought with the owners name on it.

Verbout · June 22, 2018

19 minutes ago, rayaans said:

You need an invoice from when the car was bought with the owners name on it.

Preferably one that’s not forged.

What if the alleged owner is not the registered keeper. How would you know they are the owner and have given permission to sell the car?

jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

What a daft system.

Verbout · June 22, 2018

1 hour ago, jackcramerr said:

What a daft system.

It’s not really.

You can say that about buying or selling any property on eBay.

How do you know the actual owner of goods.

It’s up to you to ask the right questions and use common sense.

Linas.P · June 22, 2018

Generally... it doesn't matter

in most of the cases you will be fine as long as you have V5C and you have sale agreement/invoice in your name (can be written on tissue or back of cigarette packet.. no difference).

To check whenever somebody is an owner, could be difficult, but not necessary needed - what is important is what I said above - after sale you must have V5C in your name as a keeper and some sot of invoice/sale agreement. What you should care about is to check - if vehicle is not reported stolen, and to lesser extent nowadays (after 2015) if there are outstanding finance on it, except of that nothing matters.

jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

1 hour ago, Verbout said:

It’s not really.

You can say that about buying or selling any property on eBay.

How do you know the actual owner of goods.

It’s up to you to ask the right questions and use common sense.

Car is different than any other property.

Assume this:

You go to a club. Find a nice blond lass and take her back home. You spend a night with her awake. Next day you leave for work. Left your car keys, v5c in home. She puts it on eBay and sells the car. What is stopping her from doing that?

Now the punter bought the car in good faith. Made the payment. V5c she said is her husbands and he is away but she is owner of the car she claims.

Punter drives the car for a week. Boys in blue stop him.

Another situation, punter buys car from husband. V5c is on husbands name. Wife comes back home and calls police saying car is stolen as she is owner of car. Husband was just the registered keeper.

Daft system. V5c should have been registered keeper and owner of the car. Not just keeper.

So any car we buy, a month down the line someone can make a clam.

Daft system

jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

Also right questions does not mean the other side will not lie about it.

Linas.P · June 22, 2018

5 minutes ago, jackcramerr said:

Also right questions does not mean the other side will not lie about it.

I tend to agree with you, there is not reason why registered keeper cannot be considered the owner (at least for the purpose of the sale) of the car at the same time. This separation in law does not make sense and adds no value... In most other countries I have dealt with car purchases (Germany, France, Denmark) that is not the case and the owner is the one who is on the documents - full stop.

However, as mentioned above - the only thing which is important for you (that actually applies in case law and in court) is to take reasonable steps to establish the owner. It doesn't matter if person lies for you as long as you have V5C in the persons name and you have invoice from the person, then you will be safe in case of any issues arise in future. If you as well can prove that you ran vehicle check for £2.99 to check there is no outstanding finance or stolen record, then you certainly be left alone.

Since 2015, creditor cannot confiscate the car from you even if you bought it with outstanding finance - now they can only go after original debtor. That is not to say I advise to buy car with outstanding finance as you might still be summoned to the court and harassed by debt collectors, but at least legally they no longer have any power, provided you legally bought the vehicle (still kind of more issues then it is worth).

June 22, 2018

Car is different than any other property.

Assume this:
You go to a club. Find a nice blond lass and take her back home. You spend a night with her awake. Next day you leave for work. Left your car keys, v5c in home. She puts it on ebay and sells the car. What is stopping her from doing that?
Now the punter bought the car in good faith. Made the payment. V5c she said is her husbands and he is away but she is owner of the car she claims.
Punter drives the car for a week. Boys in blue stop him.

Another situation, punter buys car from husband. V5c is on husbands name. Wife comes back home and calls police saying car is stolen as she is owner of car. Husband was just the registered keeper.
Daft system. V5c should have been registered keeper and owner of the car. Not just keeper.

So any car we buy, a month down the line someone can make a clam.
Daft system

Can't be because many cars are in truth owned by a finance or lease company. But they don't want your speeding tickets.

Ideally everyone should keep the original bill of sale and then staple a new bill of sale onto it each time.

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JamesIS220 · June 22, 2018

When I bought my Lexus for £1,475.00 the most I have ever paid for a car I did a car history text the reg check. Came back clear, no accidents, colour change, stolen etc. Mot history to see if any advisories. Always passed with no advisories.

Before going to see the seller I did a finance check. No finance owed.

Advertising seller was selling on behalf of his business colleague owner. He buys the cars, his friend lists them but unfortunately owner on holiday. Thought it sounded odd but showed me the original owner traded the car to another dealer and the person I bought it from, his business colleague bought it from this dealer. I was happy as at least the original owner had sold it. Worst case I had lost my money.

Before parting with my cash I did another finance check to make sure that there wasn't a log book loan on it. It was clear again. There is always a risk as most HPI reports only search the main lenders!

I got a receipt and the V5C Slip. I had also taken pictures of the eBay listing and conversations about collecting the car etc so if the seller was dodgy had proof to the police if stopped I bought it in good faith.

4 Weeks later I had not received the new log book even though the seller said he would post it to the DVLA. Checked with the DVLA and not notified. Filled in a V62 form and sent it off along with the V5C and apparently they contact the registered owner and if no response automatically send you a new V5C.

5 weeks after received new log book. Now with no previous keepers name and address.

Also be aware there are I believe 200,000 stolen blank V5C logbooks which were used by car thieves to clone the stolen cars to another legitimate cars details.

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/car-buyers-guide/cbg-dvla-warning-stolen-v5c-vehicle-registration-certificates.html

James

Linas.P · June 22, 2018

43 minutes ago, Comedian said:

Can't be because many cars are in truth owned by a finance or lease company. But they don't want your speeding tickets.

Ideally everyone should keep the original bill of sale and then staple a new bill of sale onto it each time.

If it is finance company then no - actually you own the car and finance company is just creditor, you are debtor and own them money. If it is lease company then yes you are right - you are merely hiring the car from them. In such case I don't see the reason why would you have V5C (which I know is fact). My point - lease is just long term rent, they could deal with it same as if you would get fine on car hire abroad, simply forward the fine ant that is it. In fact even when you are registered keeper of the car, car owner (lease company) will still be liable to pay fine if you fail to do so - as such "registered keeper" concept is just legal loop without purpose. Of course there are other types more in grey area e.g. Hire purchase, but anyhow system could work without separating owner and keeper.

graham8370 · June 22, 2018

I think that if you buy a car on finance, then the car belongs to the finance company until you pay the final installment. If you watch ''Can't pay, We'll take it away'' any car that has finance on it cannot be taken as it belongs to the finance company.

June 22, 2018

I do feel 'can't pay, we'll take it away' was a much better thought out program name than 'the sheriffs are coming'.

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jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I tend to agree with you, there is not reason why registered keeper cannot be considered the owner (at least for the purpose of the sale) of the car at the same time. This separation in law does not make sense and adds no value... In most other countries I have dealt with car purchases (Germany, France, Denmark) that is not the case and the owner is the one who is on the documents - full stop.

However, as mentioned above - the only thing which is important for you (that actually applies in case law and in court) is to take reasonable steps to establish the owner. It doesn't matter if person lies for you as long as you have V5C in the persons name and you have invoice from the person, then you will be safe in case of any issues arise in future. If you as well can prove that you ran vehicle check for £2.99 to check there is no outstanding finance or stolen record, then you certainly be left alone.

Since 2015, creditor cannot confiscate the car from you even if you bought it with outstanding finance - now they can only go after original debtor. That is not to say I advise to buy car with outstanding finance as you might still be summoned to the court and harassed by debt collectors, but at least legally they no longer have any power, provided you legally bought the vehicle (still kind of more issues then it is worth).

Where can I find this statement for that finance that creditor cannot confiscate the car?

The car I am looking it is under HP. The creditor still has not cleared (hpi check)it but seller of the car says he has paid for it. I called the creditor but they will not disclose any information or guide me if I am safe to buy this car.

Linas.P · June 22, 2018

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/04/car-buying-private-sale-protection-hpi-check

I am struggling to find specific reference, I am sure that in late 2015 the law has changed regarding repossessions and it became much harder for finance companies to reposes the car from new owner, forcing them to go back after original debtor. That might have been case law - if I find reference I will update...

However, what we are talking about here?! - if car has finance you walk away, don't even waste your time (or ours for that matter)! It is not question of who owns it and not an opportunity to complain about system (which arguably isn't perfect)... Any car with finance is dodgy proposition and not worth even considering or discussing.

jackcramerr · June 22, 2018

Finance is another subject. Not having a document issued by government to show ownership is another.

Linas.P · June 22, 2018

Yes, but if you already know that car has finance outstanding, checking for ownership documents becomes irrelevant. Same as if you would know already that car is stolen - would you still try to figure out who is the actual owner, obviously not - by that point it is no longer relevant form the purchasing perspective.

I agree with you that separating keeper and owner is messy way of dealing with car ownership and unnecessary problem e.g. in country where I came from the ownership documents would literally say - owned by "car hire ltd" and you would further have some sort of contract to show that you hiring the car, but you would never have any form of ownership document which could be used for car sale like V5C. Funny enough, if we would try to register British car there, the only document they ask is V5C - so basically I can buy car with outstanding finance here, take it abroad and register it there as V5C is acceptable as ownership document!

Verbout · June 22, 2018

I don’t think the OP is looking for advice on this subject, it’s a rant, and there doesn’t seem to be room for “The other persons viewpoint”

I’m out of here. 😞

jackcramerr · June 23, 2018

Doubt any 60k pound car will not have finance on it. I agree, cannot buy it unless all clear.

The advise I was seeking for is to define ownership in this case.

How about this one, John got the car on finance for her mother. John is on v5c. Mom drives it. Mom clears the debt. Mom wants to sell the car and she asks her boyfriend to sell the car for her.

Who is the owner of the car?

jackcramerr · June 23, 2018

Btw these cases I am presenting are real ones. Not made up. If you guys have simple clean way of doing things, does not mean everyone does the same.

Linas.P · June 24, 2018

I think we have already established the fact there is no simple way of finding the owner or distinguishing it form keeper... and that system is not ideal.

The more straightforward answer is 2 fold. The ownership document is original receipt or in case of finance the statement showing that car is paid-off, if that is not present what matter for you is to check if car is not stolen or not financed, if it is then you walk away. If it isn't then you need to make sure you get sale agreement/receipt in your name and V5C in your name in case you ever going to have issues (as you still can).

I would say even my car wasn't simple buy - I bought it from the dealer, but V5C had previous owners name on it and the dealer sold it from his home address, because it was Sunday. In short he could have stolen that car and pretended to be dealer, because V5C was not in his name and I just had to trust him for his word. As such I just made sure he gave me the receipt and I have paid him via bank, that is all - I bought it "in good faith" and thus have law protecting me if the thing would go sour.