Is walking away the right thing to do?

[Burroo 67]

Hiya,

I posted recently that I was looking at a March 2008 RX400H, but mistakenly said 107,000 miles instead of 100,070 miles on the clock.

The Lexus Showroom originally asked for £9995 and I told them I was not interested having looked at similar RX's with similar mileage.  They then came back and reduced it to £8995 and again I said it was too much and offered £7100.  They came back and said  the lowest they could go would be £7500, but that would be their lowest - so I went back with £7250, as one does!!.  They then said that at £7250 it would be "sold as seen".

I went over today to pay a deposit as they had agreed to do the timing belt and put it through a MOT for the £7500.  I had a look at the service book, and that is when alarm bells started ringing in my head.  The salesman said the previous owner really took care of his cars and the car is certainly in great condition inside and out (he took pains to go on about how smooth the paintwork was) , but under the bonnet is a different story.  The car was serviced on 24/05/15 at 50,258 miles.  It was then serviced on 03/05/16 at 69,913 (so 19K + miles in one year) and the last service was on 21/02/18 at 97,836 miles (so 28K miles in 20 months).  In other words the guy certainly did not take care of engine maintenance.  The car has not been serviced by Lexus since the 40,000 mile service - so no Hybrid checks in 60,000 miles!!

Please people, I need your expert input - am I right to walk away?  I need to let them know final decision by Friday but am away early tomorrow morning for a few days and will not have access to my laptop.....

[ISJason]

Hiya,
I posted recently that I was looking at a March 2008 RX400H, but mistakenly said 107,000 miles instead of 100,070 miles on the clock.
The Lexus Showroom originally asked for £9995 and I told them I was not interested having looked at similar RX's with similar mileage.  They then came back and reduced it to £8995 and again I said it was too much and offered £7100.  They came back and said  the lowest they could go would be £7500, but that would be their lowest - so I went back with £7250, as one does!!.  They then said that at £7250 it would be "sold as seen".
I went over today to pay a deposit as they had agreed to do the timing belt and put it through a MOT for the £7500.  I had a look at the service book, and that is when alarm bells started ringing in my head.  The salesman said the previous owner really took care of his cars and the car is certainly in great condition inside and out (he took pains to go on about how smooth the paintwork was) , but under the bonnet is a different story.  The car was serviced on 24/05/15 at 50,258 miles.  It was then serviced on 03/05/16 at 69,913 (so 19K + miles in one year) and the last service was on 21/02/18 at 97,836 miles (so 28K miles in 20 months).  In other words the guy certainly did not take care of engine maintenance.  The car has not been serviced by Lexus since the 40,000 mile service - so no Hybrid checks in 60,000 miles!!
Please people, I need your expert input - am I right to walk away?  I need to let them know final decision by Friday but am away early tomorrow morning for a few days and will not have access to my laptop.....

Hello,
The previous owner may have done high mileage and had one or two missed services but the fact is that’s nothing for a Lexus engine to have done 107,000 Miles. It’ll do 300,000 with no bother, so as long as no problems are present , I would ask them to check the hybrid system and provided no issues come up I’d buy it. Seems like you have a good deal and to quibble over the odd £250 seems like a waste of energy for such a car.


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[rayaans]

40 minutes ago, Burroo 67 said:

Hiya,

I posted recently that I was looking at a March 2008 RX400H, but mistakenly said 107,000 miles instead of 100,070 miles on the clock.

The Lexus Showroom originally asked for £9995 and I told them I was not interested having looked at similar RX's with similar mileage.  They then came back and reduced it to £8995 and again I said it was too much and offered £7100.  They came back and said  the lowest they could go would be £7500, but that would be their lowest - so I went back with £7250, as one does!!.  They then said that at £7250 it would be "sold as seen".

I went over today to pay a deposit as they had agreed to do the timing belt and put it through a MOT for the £7500.  I had a look at the service book, and that is when alarm bells started ringing in my head.  The salesman said the previous owner really took care of his cars and the car is certainly in great condition inside and out (he took pains to go on about how smooth the paintwork was) , but under the bonnet is a different story.  The car was serviced on 24/05/15 at 50,258 miles.  It was then serviced on 03/05/16 at 69,913 (so 19K + miles in one year) and the last service was on 21/02/18 at 97,836 miles (so 28K miles in 20 months).  In other words the guy certainly did not take care of engine maintenance.  The car has not been serviced by Lexus since the 40,000 mile service - so no Hybrid checks in 60,000 miles!!

Please people, I need your expert input - am I right to walk away?  I need to let them know final decision by Friday but am away early tomorrow morning for a few days and will not have access to my laptop.....

This is at a Lexus dealership?

How many services has the vehicle actually had over 100k miles?

Sold as seen essentially means that they're trying to flog you the car without warranty etc. This means that they are trying to sell you a car for which they have no responsibility after the sale.

However, by law, dealers can't do this and its illegal to sell a car "Sold as Seen". They can call it what they like but dealers still have to abide by Consumer Contracts. Therefore, you can buy the car sold as seen, if it develops a fault which is not due to wear and tear, the dealership is liable. Shove that in their face and see what they say but they sound like crooks if they're still trying that on

[Burroo 67]

HIS Jason/Rayans,

The first 4 services were carried out by Lexus garages and then a further 2 services were done before the 50K service quoted above, so up to 50K it was extremely well looked after.  It's the fact that it has only had 2 services in the next 50K miles that has me worried.

I doubt very much if they would do a Hybrid check, possibly if they did and it came back OK I would still consider the purchase.

[cruisermark]

I'm actually surprised a main dealer is actually selling quite an old vehicle with high mileage and patchy history.

As pointed out above there is no such thing as sold as seen ( in a private sale maybe) so if everything else is fine I would go for it. If the vehicle develops a major fault within 6 months then you do have comeback and in my opinion a main dealer would be more forthcoming than an independant dealer.

Good uck whatever you decide

[Tinonline]

I agree...probably ok if the dealer is bothering to sell it...obviously a trade-in.

I don’t like the sound of them trying an as seen bit but I wouldn’t haggle over £250 but I would ask for a new water pump!

Mileage is no issue as my friends have stated.

Get a full MOT on it as that will pull up any issues.

[doog442]

I'm quite impressed with how you knocked them down in price...they hate it dont they .

Lexus are extremely flakey with their service histories but obviously they have certain obligations in relation to consumer protection as stated by others.

Clearly its intended for auction so see what you can screw out of them.

[Cotswold Pete]

Those long service intervals are not a problem in terms of any real damage to the engine.  I once ran for 25K between service interval on my Mk3, and noticed nothing other than the engine oil was a rather discoloured, but not as sludgy as you might get from a lesser engine. Not so sure I would allow my LS to have two 25K service intervals though!

However if your gut feel is 'not sure', then you might end up always wondering if something is about to go wrong every time you start the car up.

Seems to be a few 2008 models out around your £7K-£8K requirement,  just depends how far you want to travel.

[jaffer]

On 5/23/2018 at 1:05 PM, rayaans said:

This is at a Lexus dealership?

How many services has the vehicle actually had over 100k miles?

Sold as seen essentially means that they're trying to flog you the car without warranty etc. This means that they are trying to sell you a car for which they have no responsibility after the sale.

However, by law, dealers can't do this and its illegal to sell a car "Sold as Seen". They can call it what they like but dealers still have to abide by Consumer Contracts. Therefore, you can buy the car sold as seen, if it develops a fault which is not due to wear and tear, the dealership is liable. Shove that in their face and see what they say but they sound like crooks if they're still trying that on

they can get away fro consumer rights but issuing a trade sale invoice and getting the customer to agree to it or by writing spares/repair on the bill. 

[royoftherovers]

1 hour ago, jaffer said:

they can get away fro consumer rights but issuing a trade sale invoice and getting the customer to agree to it or by writing spares/repair on the bill. 

I believe that to be fraud.

It is not possible to deny someone their Statutory Rights.

[jaffer]

2 minutes ago, royoftherovers said:

I believe that to be fraud.

It is not possible to deny someone their Statutory Rights.

if the dealer has sold it as a trade sale or spares/repair you do not have consumer rights on that sale. 

yes sold as seen is not legal but spares or repair or a trade sale is perfectly fine. the customer will have no legal protection. 

[rayaans]

1 hour ago, jaffer said:

if the dealer has sold it as a trade sale or spares/repair you do not have consumer rights on that sale. 

yes sold as seen is not legal but spares or repair or a trade sale is perfectly fine. the customer will have no legal protection. 

That's not true.

You can't sell a car as "trade sale" when the public are involved. No such thing as a trade sale when selling to a private individual and those who try that on are crooks. Consumer rights would still apply. 

Spares or repairs in legal terms means that the car is unroadworthy. I certainly would not be signing any document with that written on it as it effectively means you can't drive the car away without having the insurance voided if something happens. 

[jaffer]

10 hours ago, rayaans said:

That's not true.

You can't sell a car as "trade sale" when the public are involved. No such thing as a trade sale when selling to a private individual and those who try that on are crooks. Consumer rights would still apply. 

Spares or repairs in legal terms means that the car is unroadworthy. I certainly would not be signing any document with that written on it as it effectively means you can't drive the car away without having the insurance voided if something happens. 

then by all means dont go and buy a car that the dealer is saying is sold as seen.

 

Pay market price and go and buy on a retail invoice. 

 

I have sold over 1500 cars and my system is fully complies with the consumer rights act 2015. touch wood never had an issue with a customer but the under £500 part exchanges we get in are all sold as spares/repair job. 

[Bluesman]

40 minutes ago, jaffer said:

then by all means dont go and buy a car that the dealer is saying is sold as seen.

 

Pay market price and go and buy on a retail invoice. 

 

I have sold over 1500 cars and my system is fully complies with the consumer rights act 2015. touch wood never had an issue with a customer but the under £500 part exchanges we get in are all sold as spares/repair job. 

4

As Rayaans has said you cannot sell to the public and write statements that try to stop any consumer rights the public have. What you do between tradespeople is your own affair.

I suggest you update your "system" because if you are selling cars to the public with that printed on the sales invoice you are trading illegally.

The only reason you put that on an invoice is to deceive the public and try and negate any claim that may arise when the vehicle breaks down which you are legally held responsible for repairing.

There is nothing you can write on an invoice which opts you out of your legal responsibilities. 

[Bluesman]

13 hours ago, jaffer said:

if the dealer has sold it as a trade sale or spares/repair you do not have consumer rights on that sale. 

yes sold as seen is not legal but spares or repair or a trade sale is perfectly fine. the customer will have no legal protection. 

Wrong

[dendonc]

 

19 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

23 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

 

 

 

[rayaans]

38 minutes ago, jaffer said:

then by all means dont go and buy a car that the dealer is saying is sold as seen.

 

Pay market price and go and buy on a retail invoice. 

 

I have sold over 1500 cars and my system is fully complies with the consumer rights act 2015. touch wood never had an issue with a customer but the under £500 part exchanges we get in are all sold as spares/repair job. 

Im fully aware of the law on this front. A dealer cannot say "sold as seen" as consumer rights apply no matter what when selling to the public.

Private car sales are a different matter and they don't have to be fit for purpose or decent quality. They still have to list any faults and have an accurate description of the vehicle and they only have to give the correct information if asked i.e. they don't have to disclose accident information unless directly asked.

If a car is being sold by a dealer, the key aspects of consumer rights apply. The vehicle has to be of satisfactory quality, meet the description that was given and be fit for purpose. Writing spares of repair on a contract is shoddy business and a way of trying to get out of your obligations as a dealer. A dealer can not deny a member of the public of their rights no matter what they try to do.

In essence, you're not trading legally and its lucky that there have been no issues. Most of the public are decent people and won't try to be difficult. Watch a car go pop or something go wrong with it and they'll be on your tail quite quickly. Whether its £100 or £10k, if you're a dealer and selling to the public, you simply cannot be writing "Sold as Seen" or "Spares or repair" (unless its not roadworthy). 

If you want to sell "Sold as seen", you need to sell the vehicles privately or at an auction.

[dendonc]

25 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

I suggest you update your "system" because if you are selling cars to the public with that printed on the sales invoice you are trading illegally.

 

21 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

Wrong

But why, if someone is selling used (second hand) cars is it illegal for them to also sell second hand (used) parts?

[rayaans]

22 minutes ago, dendonc said:

 

But why, if someone is selling used (second hand) cars is it illegal for them to also sell second hand (used) parts?

Because selling a second hand car as "Spares or repair" in legal terms implies a car is not roadworthy which means it can't legally be driven away

[Bluesman]

32 minutes ago, dendonc said:

 

But why, if someone is selling used (second hand) cars is it illegal for them to also sell second hand (used) parts?

Not with you on that one, can you explain further?

[dendonc]

36 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

Not with you on that one, can you explain further?

Well if they are in business selling second hand 'goods' (cars in this case) then selling a used (second hand) car for either parts or driving away on the road is just one & the same thing, I am not compelled in law to buy a car that is roadworthy or drive it away, with sellers agreement I can have it collected with a tow truck if its not roadworthy.

In other words, the seller is selling 'used cars', unless he advertises as fact he is selling more than that, such as, selling 'roadworthy cars ready to drive away'.

[rayaans]

33 minutes ago, dendonc said:

Well if they are in business selling second hand 'goods' (cars in this case) then selling a used (second hand) car for either parts or driving away on the road is just one & the same thing, I am not compelled in law to buy a car that is roadworthy or drive it away, with sellers agreement I can have it collected with a tow truck if its not roadworthy.

In other words, the seller is selling 'used cars', unless he advertises as fact he is selling more than that, such as, selling 'roadworthy cars ready to drive away'.

Exactly, you can have it collected and towed away if its "Spares or repair". The term means that its not roadworthy and you can't drive it away. 

So in answer to your question, they can sell the car as spares or repair, and nobody can stop them, but by law, they can't let the customer drive the vehicle away. Also, to put this into perspective, if a dealer lets you test drive the car and then drive it away, if they stamp "Spares or repairs" onto the invoice, it won't stand in court and consumer rights will still apply.

To put all this in a simple way:

1) Consumer rights apply to all retail sales

2) Retail sales are any sales which are to the public. What happens in the trade is an entirely different matter.

3) Spares or Repairs implies non roadworthy, therefore a dealer cannot offer a test drive or let you drive away - otherwise it counts as a retail sale no matter what they decide to stamp on the invoice. It just wont hold water.

4) Selling a car as spares or repairs (unless it clearly is) or "Sold as Seen" by a dealer is shoddy practice and consumer rights will still apply despite them trying to waive their obligations

5) Under consumer rights, the product has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality etc. Selling "Used cars" would imply that the cars are fit for purpose, i.e. roadworthy unless mentioned otherwise (and mentioned correctly as well). 

[Bluesman]

23 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Exactly, you can have it collected and towed away if its "Spares or repair". The term means that its not roadworthy and you can't drive it away. 

So in answer to your question, they can sell the car as spares or repair, and nobody can stop them, but by law, they can't let the customer drive the vehicle away. Also, to put this into perspective, if a dealer lets you test drive the car and then drive it away, if they stamp "Spares or repairs" onto the invoice, it won't stand in court and consumer rights will still apply.

To put all this in a simple way:

1) Consumer rights apply to all retail sales

2) Retail sales are any sales which are to the public. What happens in the trade is an entirely different matter.

3) Spares or Repairs implies non roadworthy, therefore a dealer cannot offer a test drive or let you drive away - otherwise it counts as a retail sale no matter what they decide to stamp on the invoice. It just wont hold water.

4) Selling a car as spares or repairs (unless it clearly is) or "Sold as Seen" by a dealer is shoddy practice and consumer rights will still apply despite them trying to waive their obligations

5) Under consumer rights, the product has to be fit for purpose, satisfactory quality etc. Selling "Used cars" would imply that the cars are fit for purpose, i.e. roadworthy unless mentioned otherwise (and mentioned correctly as well). 

I thank my learned friend for that more concise explanation.

[Burroo 67]

Very interesting to read the discussions about "Sold as Seen".  To be honest, I did think it was illegal and certainly will not be signing anything I'm not sure of in relation to the Lexus.

My final roll of the dice was to go back to the dealer and offer £7600 if they would also do the water pump and service the Hybrid system and they have agreed, so I am getting the timing belt, and water pump replaced and getting the Hybrid system serviced for £350, which I believe is a great deal as my own mechanic reckoned £400-£500 to just do the timing belt.

Wish me luck with my new car......

[Odysseus]

Which Lexus dealer is this? I’m shocked and dismayed they are trying to wriggle out of their legal obligations like this.

Also, if it is a genuine Lexus dealer you’re buying from a Hybrid Health Check ought to be a given?!

I dealt with an extremely slippery salesperson at Lexus Edgware Road when I bought my GS450. If I were you I’d make sure you’ve got everything in writing. Emails are good for this as the date and time is recorded too.


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