TESLA MODEL 3

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, Comedian said:

So while it is great you are enjoying your car, and I have nothing against them whatsoever. The reality of the situation is it's not going to make a dent in emissions.

 

These were my previous cars before I wend down the EV route....Do you honestly think I care that much about emissions ;)

 

 

Different people go try EVs for different reasons, but tree hugging and eating lettuce wasn't that for me. The car I had on the list to replace the 335i was this, a full fat 500bhp V8 monster....

 

But I've always been interested in tech, and when some time in late 2014/early 2015 I saw AutoCar had done test showing some electric car from a company I never heard of could out drag Aston Rapide that got my attention......On paper it seemed too good to be true:

1: Full sized 5 seater saloon - so practical 

2: Performance of a M5 - so exactly what I was looking for in my next car after the 335i

3: Price bracket of a M5/used XJR Supersport - so in budget

4: But <£5 to 'refuel' using cheap overnight electricity compared to £70 of SuperUnleaded I was putting into 335i for the same 200 miles of range.

However like lots of people on here I was very skeptical, and there was no way on this planet I was going to drop £60k+ on tech I never tried, a company I hardly knew anything about despite the fact the Model S ticked seemed to tick all the boxed.

 

 

But than I saw Nissan was pretty much almost giving away the Nissan Leaf on 2/3 year PCP deals, I was spending more on fuel per month in the 335i than the total cost monthly PCP cost of the Leaf. A Excel spreadsheet calculations later and it was clear chopping in the BMW for the Leaf would also focus my mind in saving for a £60-70K+ much quicker  a trip to the local Nissan dealer was sorted....

Going from a near 400bhp RWD BMW with one of the best in-line 6 engines every made (still the same engine in the current M3) to a 100bhp FWD EV made by Nissan, I had no idea what to expect, but within 100 yards of trying my first EV I knew this was the future of cars, and I signed up to EV ownership on that day!!

That was now over 3 years ago, and I really fathom to understand why people who can afford an Lexus/Audi/BMW/Merc are still buying combustion cars. It's like carrying on buying Nokia handset when apple first released the Iphone. 

I love EVs because they are simply better cars than anything else on the road, it's that simple. 

 

But if you must know about the environmental side, last year the 4KW Solar PV on our house generated 3000kWh, that enough electricity to power an EV for around 10K miles. We have enough roof space to probably triple the size of the solar PV setup, 7000-8000kWh of electricity would be enough to cover our entire domestic electricity consumption and transportation use, all powered by the sun!!! We have a energy Battery storage system coming to the house which will enable us to store alot of the solar electricity we generate rather than send it back to the grid - If the tech is here to reduce the amount of grid electricity you consume why wouldnt you want to use it?? 

My daughter is now 2, her first car trip home from hospital was in an EV, and by the time she is old enough to drive I suspect the concept of 'filling up' a car with petrol/diesel will be as an alien concept to her as some of you guys finding the thought of owning an EV :).

[ganzoom]

On 16 May 2018 at 10:02 PM, HarryM said:

How hard would it be to have removable power packs? Drive in, car wash style, battery's drop out, moves along, new ones in.

i know all manufactures would have to make a common size and fittings but it can't be impossible.  That's the only way I could have all electric, we drive down to the Alps and although it's all down hill till we get there! I don't think a four day there four back would be much of a holiday.  

Tesla have already tried it, infact all the S/X can still do it, it takes less time to swap out the pack than refuel at a petrols station.

 

They even set up a site in California to allow the public to use it......the problem, no one used it.

Why you pay extra money, go out of your way to find fuel when you can charge at home at a cheaper rate, or use a SuperCharger which is free?

http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/

[ganzoom]

On 16 May 2018 at 10:02 PM, HarryM said:

That's the only way I could have all electric, we drive down to the Alps and although it's all down hill till we get there! I don't think a four day there four back would be much of a holiday.  

 

Why do you think it would take 4 days??

There is a website called https://abetterrouteplanner.com it lets you plan any trip around Europe/US using Tesla superchargers. I use it quite a lot and it's pretty accurate though the range estimates are on the conservative side, I nearly always arrive with more % charge left than the website states. 

We are going to France this summer in the Tesla with our 2 year old, I have no worries about charging, and looking at a route to Interlaken, suggest only need 3 20 minute stops once your in Europe (Actually if you stopped for 40-50 minutes at Nancy to get 100% charge that will get to Interlaken with no future stops, but you can play with the website for your self and see)......Though I do understand there is a group of people that want a car that can drive 500 miles non-stop for 12 hrs and thing less isn't good enough ;) 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

 

These were my previous cars before I wend down the EV route....Do you honestly think I care that much about emissions 😉

Different people go try EVs for different reasons, but tree hugging and eating lettuce wasn't that for me. The car I had on the list to replace the 335i was this, a full fat 500bhp V8 monster....

However like lots of people on here I was very skeptical, and there was no way on this planet I was going to drop £60k+ on tech I never tried, a company I hardly knew anything about despite the fact the Model S ticked seemed to tick all the boxed.

 

 

 

I didn't mean to suggest you did care about emission personally. It was just a general statement regarding amount of cars as you suggested you had "moved onward" whereas I'm saying I'm not really sure how far you've actually moved on. You've moved the emissions from your location to somewhere else.

I think they are great and would have one for coming to work daily - in fact I'd love one. But it would need to replace a car worth about £800 so until it dies it's not efficient to swap.

My V8 is a toy so fuel consumption isn't really a factor.

I'm not sceptical of the technology as it stands regarding getting a person from point A to point B - I am sceptical about the govt strategy and long term sustainability on a global basis.

[ganzoom]

18 minutes ago, Comedian said:

I didn't mean to suggest you did care about emission personally. It was just a general statement regarding amount of cars as you suggested you had "moved onward" whereas I'm saying I'm not really sure how far you've actually moved on. You've moved the emissions from your location to somewhere else.

My V8 is a toy so fuel consumption isn't really a factor

 

Car for me have never been about emissions, here, there or any where, I honestly couldn't careless. Given you enjoy a V8 I would think you feel the same way.

The biggest job a car has to do in my book is put a smile on my face, and given the stupid amount of time I spend stuck in traffic/commuting/family trips if I don't enjoy the car than it's a big fat NO from me, regardless of anything. 

For me anyways the EV drivetrain simply delivers an driving experience no combustion engine car can get anywhere near, the fact they're cheap to run are all secondary. 

It has taken ALOT of will power for me to resist upgrading our current 'base spec' Tesla Model X (4.9 seconds 0-60) to the all singing all dancing P100D version (2.9 seconds 0-60). But my reasoning is the X is the family car, it's main job is to carry people+stuff, and at near 3 tons when fully loaded a sub 5 second 60 time is quick enough already.....

However the Model 3 is a different story, it'll be our 'second' car, like the IS300H. My wife uses it for work commute but not much else, our IS has done less than 15K in over 3 years. But given the lack of requirement for space, the inherent lower cost of the Model 3, resisting the temptation for the 'Performance' version will be almost impossible I fear.

Hopefully next few days we'll find out the spec of the 'P' Model 3, it should manage a near 3 second 0-60 time, and price tag hopefully would be in line with a M3/RS4, if so than I cannot hand over the cash to Tesla quickly enough!!!  

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/961125/Tesla-Model-3-performance-Elon-Musk  

I've driven a P85D S at full pelt on a B road, and I can tell you there is not much on this planet than can be as quick in real world speed on a twisty road at any price bracket. When most cars are still shuffling gears coming out of comers in an EV you can just deploy the power straight away - no waiting, no gear, no fuss, just instant power with 100% adjustablilty, by the time the combustion engine is as peak power deliver the EV drivetrain would have been at 100% power delivery for 2-3 seconds, which your know is the difference between a quick car and a really quick one....The true potential of speed of EVs are only now starting to be obvious, it's taken combustion cars 100 years of development to get to where we are with handling/power, and already some guy in a garage with a hacked up Tesla motor, GM Volt Battery pack, and a Lotus chassis is embarrassing people on the track......That's what excited me about EVs, not emissions or tree hugging, but the opposite, speed and performance that's simply not possible with combustion cars. I cannot wait to see how the tech develops .

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, ganzoom said:

 

Car for me have never been about emissions, here, there or any where, I honestly couldn't careless. Given you enjoy a V8 I would think you feel the same way.

That's what excited me about EVs, not emissions or tree hugging, but the opposite, speed and performance that's simply not possible with combustion cars. I cannot wait to see how the tech develops .

 

I do care about emissions, i just dislike the marketing bull**** hiding the reality. I don't think me having a modern 5ltr is any worse than a hippy driving a VW camper.

I agree, you're right about the power and torque, electric has many many advantages. 

[Tel]

The thrust is thrilling,the range is challenging but paying over the odds for a B &Q std. Build rankles the most in my book

Tel

[Chris Skelton]

Hope it stops as well as it accelerates. A big % of drivers just aren't that capable-so 0-60 in 3 secs is death. Wiggled past a stupid woman today in congested street, who was talking away on her phone while onehandedly badly driving towards me -don't even let her near a car, would be my thought, let alone something fast.

I wonder how few people can REALLY handle such Tesla speed? Not many that I know, and there are a few memorials below my house (near A4) that show the dramatic results when speed gets the better of you.

I hope, when I'm trundling carefully down bendy B roads, i don't meet a Tesla doing it's thing.

[Rabbers]

2 hours ago, Tel said:

...The thrust is thrilling, the range is challenging but ... Build rankles the most in my book...

I couldn't agree more.  I don't think I've ever seen a more impressive car from a distance than a Tesla S and then been so disappointed from close up

and inside because of the build and materials quality.  That Tesla should build a reward for proprietary technology into its prices is more than fair, but

it needs to get its quality act together in the face of imminent heavyweight competition, particularly from the Germans.  Having said this, I have always

been surprised at the numbers in which Scandinavians, in particular, buy the Model S and can only explain it in terms of probable fiscal advantages and

genuine collective ecological consciences winning out over personal aesthetic considerations and tastes.

 

[malcolmw]

@ganzoom

Can you clarify something for me. You show a Tesla supercharger map above. Can you plug the Tesla into the normal Chargepoints being installed by local councils in car parks or do you need to use the Tesla network exclusively?

At the moment, it seems the best reason to get a small electric car like the Leaf is that you get a reserved car park space in your local town. 😉 

 

[ganzoom]

4 hours ago, malcolmw said:

@ganzoom

Can you clarify something for me. You show a Tesla supercharger map above. Can you plug the Tesla into the normal Chargepoints being installed by local councils in car parks or do you need to use the Tesla network exclusively?

At the moment, it seems the best reason to get a small electric car like the Leaf is that you get a reserved car park space in your local town. 😉 

 

 

Teslas can charge off anything, 3 pin plug, 3 phase, AC, non Tesla DC rapid chargers (with a CHADAMO adaptor). However only Teslas can use the Tesla Supercharger network.

Overall the public charging network is a bit of a mess, there are now more chargers but I've lost track how many different cards/memberships/Apps you need for the various charge points. 

 

This website shows all the public available charging points in the UK, and if they are free to use or not, as well how to access them. Teslas can pretty much use all of them - current around 5700 sites in the UK.

https://www.zap-map.com

 

For me though I just use a 3 pin plug when on holiday/staying somewhere with no dedicated chargers. Its not quick but chilling out/relaxing you cannot complain about free fuel :)

[Linas.P]

On 5/17/2018 at 6:31 PM, Comedian said:

There isn't enough manufacturing capacity to make enough batteries. There isn't even enough to put batteries in all the cars in the world. It would take hundreds of years at current production

Not only that, but literally not enough lithium on earth to replace ICE.

@ganzoom - nice story, just sadly cannot be applied to everyone. Obviously, EV's catching fire is overblown issue, but I would not say there is nowhere to charge (for me) if that would not be the case. I started by trying to see how PHEV would fit for me as I am doing about 28miles/day as such I could complete most of the journey on electrical power only in like BMW 330e or i8, because they claim ~20m EV range, but that is only good news. From there on - I need to get freeholder permission to install charging point, about which management company where very positive until it got serious and they never replied to me. Verbally, building manager told me that management company, freeholder (which is some sort of offshore money laundering fund without known owners) and council could not come into agreement who should give permission. Furthermore, I was told that even if I would get permission the exiting electrical installation in the garage is not suitable for a single EV charging, I am not talking about what if everyone would get one. As a leaseholder I cannot install anything by myself... you see not everyone have "a barn" where they can take their cars and charge them.

If you cannot charge the car at home that is pretty much end of story.. But even more so I would not be able to charge it where I work. Currently, I pay £5/day for my ICE parking, if I would want to park EV where I can charge it I only have to options: 1. £25/Day +£1.2 (£26.2/day) or 2. £2/h + £0.7/h + £7.9/month for membership (~£26.96/day). I tried to do all kinds of calculations and EV option simply makes no sense - the car would be significantly more expensive, the parking will be significantly more expensive and saving on fuel will be literally negligible.

My next car will likely going to be PHEV (because that is the only thing I can get on company), but even then I will basically going to drive it as ICE or use only some accidental electricity and use it as sort of incapacitated Hybrid.

[ganzoom]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Not only that, but literally not enough lithium on earth to replace ICE.

Am surpised you havent also quoted some other common BS people come out about EVs.....I'll make a list for you

1: Electricty comes from coal powerstations so EVs pollute more than combustion cars.

 

2:Batteries degrade after 3 years and you than have to replace them.

 

3:if you plug in to charge an EV your blow up the circuit board to your house.

 

4:We'll need 100 nuclear power stations to meet the energy demand of EVs.

 

I don't mind people moaning about EVs for real reasons such as cost, but all of the above is pure BS which lazy people come out with based on complete misconceptions rather than fact I really cannot be bothered to debate those points but Google has all the answers. 

As for lack of home charging that is a real issue. However the reality is any where there is enough capacity for you to install a 3 pin socket or even run an extension from a 3 pin socket there is enough to charge an electricty to charge an EV.

Back in the Victorian times a inside loo was a new thing, and more recently central heating. Changing thinking around installing EV charge points is the same thing. Around where I live I have noticed new builds are going up with EV charge points installed already!

There does need to be a change in legislaions, especially in big cities around installing points. But it will come. 

Though overall a small market the people in Norway last months bought more EVs than conventional cars. Its clear demonstration with the right governmnt polices the move away from combustion cars will happen and quickly. Petrol cars in norway have 20% of sales and diesel 16%, I can see both dropping to single digits by the end of this calender year.

https://insideevs.com/plug-in-car-sales-captured-over-55-market-share-in-norway/

However back on the topic of the Model 3.....Elon Musk is really teasing us now, looks like he is waiting till the litreal end of the week before announcing details of the performance variant of the 3.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, ganzoom said:

 

1: Electricty comes from coal powerstations so EVs pollute more than combustion cars.

 

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/electricity-generation.html

Still mostly from Fossil fuel - might not be coal but natural gas is still a fossil fuel.

Of course you could sign up for a green energy supplier to cover that one but when you're charging in another location you can't control that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jan/19/children-as-young-as-seven-mining-cobalt-for-use-in-smartphones-says-amnesty

There are other issue too. But it's not only for cars, it's a problem with batteries in general and the need to keep costs down.

 

So all of these problems can be solved but it raises another issue then.........it makes it very expensive and exclusive. 

 

Quote

 pure BS which lazy people come out with based on complete misconceptions

This happens on both sides of the debate. 

[ganzoom]

2 hours ago, Comedian said:

https://www.energy-uk.org.uk/energy-industry/electricity-generation.html

Still mostly from Fossil fuel - might not be coal but natural gas is still a fossil fuel.

Of course you could sign up for a green energy supplier to cover that one but when you're charging in another location you can't control that.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/jan/19/children-as-young-as-seven-mining-cobalt-for-use-in-smartphones-says-amnesty

There are other issue too. But it's not only for cars, it's a problem with batteries in general and the need to keep costs down.

Wind and solar is now consistently generating more electricty than nuclear, and combined more than gas.

As I've already said even the very small solar PV setup on our house roof generated 3000kWh over 12 months compared to an average UK household usage of 3600kWh over a year.

The next step change in power generation will be local Battery storage of solar generated electricty. Am currently awaiting a Tesla powerwall Battery pack to be installed, it will be interesting to see how big an effect that has on our grid electricty use....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/apr/24/uk-power-generation-coal-free-gas-renewables-nuclear

You should also look up how much electricity is needed to refine petrol in the first place. If there was no need to refine petrol the power saved will go a long way to meeting energy use of EVs.

The facts are all there in black and white, it just seems some people cannot/woudlnt try to understand them.

[talaipwros]

On 5/18/2018 at 7:52 AM, ganzoom said:

Electric cars catch fire? No where to charge? Tech is not ready? 

You bunch sound like daily mail readers been stuck in a bunker for the last 5 years :)

I've been driving EVs since March 2015, same months as we got our IS300H.

Just based on my expereince

• No fires I can report 
• I've managed to find charging in a barn on top a hill in the middle of the peak district
• So far have covered 34K miles in just over 3 years - Have a driving holiday to France planned. 
• 0 = number of time I've run of charge
• Total cost of fuel in 34K - £500 (most of which I've claimed back on travel expenses

 

5

thanks for that

 

Can you please advise us on the electricity cost?

 

[Guest]

You should also look up how much electricity is needed to refine petrol in the first place. If there was no need to refine petrol the power saved will go a long way to meeting energy use of EVs.
The facts are all there in black and white, it just seems some people cannot/woudlnt try to understand them.

Maybe I'm not being clear? I like electric cars, I like green energy and would like to see more of it.

What is it you understand perfectly that I am struggling with?

I just can't see presently how it's going to scale globally. That's not saying it's not worthwhile because it is.

When crude comes out the ground and refined to make jet fuel and diesel for farming and shipping and trucking - petrol comes out. What do you want them to do, pump it back?

So if we stop pulling crude out the ground what does your googling suggest for air travel and cargo shipping?

You might also realise the road you drive on is made partially of crude oil.


These are not electric cars bashing concerns, just musings about the future.

Tesla wall is interesting.





Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

[Mr Vlad]

By gum this thread has gone madly serious. I've loved tesla cars since the model S was introduced. A fabulous car with loads of luggage space and a proper 5 seater. 

Why I'd not have one? A good few reasons. Where I've lived and live now. Having an electric car at a terraced house in an area not so nice is a no no. Imagine having the charge wire be g snapped off by the local yobs.

Living in a 3rd floor apartment. Enough said.

Now I'm in a lovely quiet location in a bungalow but my car parking spot is outside of my garden fence. A charge lead would have to be about 20 foot or more long. Could be a lot shorter mind if a power source was put in the shed (mmmmmm that thought has just occurrd and given me an idea)

Anyway electric cars are great but can only be owned by folk living in nice housing estates. Those with semis and gardens. Not council estates even tho the new ones are really nice (my daughter lives in one and it even has solar panels and front and back garden and shed But some neighbours are rough) and there in is a point. Certain areas of our wonderful land is occupied by a not nice crowd. Those areas won't have electric cars coz they'd not last long compared to a normal car. I know what I'm talking about coz I've lived in those areas for the 1st 30 years of my life.

I like the look of the new model 3.

However I love my is300h and for me it whoops ***** compared to most cars.

[talaipwros]

snip from Tesla website

Surely is not that great? I think that explains why every Tesla I have seen on the motorway goes really slowly on the left lane.

[Mr Vlad]

I'm a truck driver and of late I've seen quite a few S type teslas and actually in all 3 lanes of our clogged up motorways. 

When I bought my IS300H there was a stunning LC500 there. We talked about that beauty. Salesguy said that he had numerous enquiries about the 500h from tesla owners. Interesting. 

[ganzoom]

55 minutes ago, Mr Vlad said:

When I bought my IS300H there was a stunning LC500 there. We talked about that beauty. Salesguy said that he had numerous enquiries about the 500h from tesla owners. Interesting. 

And how many LC500s have Lexus sold compared to a £100k+ P100D Model S/X ;).

Lexus out of all the 'premium' brands is most at threat from Tesla. You just have to look at the abysmal sales performance of the IS to see that.

I looked at a RX when ordering our X(even had one for 24hr test drive). Quicker, more practical, nicer to drive, despite been more expensive the X simply made the RX look ancient.

We now want to fully electric, if Lexus did a full EV I would order one without hesitation, but they don't so my cash is going to another brand. Jag iPace briefly had my interest but at £76k in decent spec its Model X money for a smaller car. So the Model 3 really is the only choice on the market.

Lexus could have really stood out in the premium segment by going fully electric. The sheer number of S/Xs Tesla shift despite a near 6 figure price tag and the massive waiting list for the 3 shows the demand that is there waiting to be tapped, but they have now missed the boat, and it appears still not interested in EVs :(.

[Linas.P]

13 hours ago, ganzoom said:

1. Electricty comes from coal powerstations so EVs pollute more than combustion cars.
2. Batteries degrade after 3 years and you than have to replace them.
3. If you plug in to charge an EV your blow up the circuit board to your house.
4. We'll need 100 nuclear power stations to meet the energy demand of EVs.

All true, except not coal and electric cars do not pollute more then ICE, but looking at overall picture changing all ICE to EV makes very little difference.. You see.. because cars are minor polluter even if government would like to you to think otherwise.

You are outright wrong about how much renewable energy we produce, even your own source states it is less then third, but it does not account for diesel wind turbine "starters" and the carbon emission of actually building the renewable energy capacity needed to replace fossil fuels. Electric cars emissions as well always conveniently ignore "life time emissions" of EV vehicle which often is higher then ICE over 10 years etc. etc.

As I said, no matter what I think or wish... It is not excuse, it is reality... It is not even terraced house where I would need pull the cables over pavement ... I am literally "not allowed" to charge EV where I live. End of story... 

 

[Guest]

First wind turbine invented 1887. Slow progress sadly.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

[talaipwros]

sorry guys but my diesel at 70mph manages more than 700  miles, far more than tesla's 200 (  in perfect conditions)

no way I will buy a Tesla until this is sorted

[ganzoom]

12 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

sorry guys but my diesel at 70mph manages more than 700  miles, far more than tesla's 200 (  in perfect conditions)

no way I will buy a Tesla until this is sorted

No EV will EVER do 700 miles on a charge at 70mph. Your looking at a 300kWh Battery pack - This will require Battery density many time higher than even the most optimistic projection. 

Equally 300kWh of electricity is enough energy to power your average UK house for nearly a whole MONTH!! This shows you just how much energy is stalled in fossil fuels, and how reckless wasting it we have been.