What will ES offer that IS doesn't?

[rayaans]

On a side note - panoramic sunroof :D

[NemesisUK]

15 minutes ago, rayaans said:

On a side note - panoramic sunroof :D

Hopefully not a 'panorattle' roof as fitted by Mercedes!

[Linas.P]

It is actually quite surprising that panoramic sunroof or even glass roof is not offered by Lexus across the range. Almost every french car has it, it was buzz-word in premium segment for a while now.. but as far as I am aware only RX has panoramic roof and only NX glass roof.. LC has sort of half/glass roof - more off standard sunroof you cannot open.

Next thing I am missing in the range is 360 camera... I know RX/NX has it, but for me it is must have for city oriented hybrids... almost feel like it should be standard on some cars, like LC, RC-F, GS-F, GS450h..

[Rabbers]

I think that Lexus would find it extremely difficult to separately characterise and target prospective GS or ES purchasers in terms of personal needs 

and tastes,  especially in areas such as Europe where the potential volume of sales available to Lexus in this particular segment, as historically

evidenced by the GS, is so limited as to make future investments in either car, let alone both, a risky proposition.   For Lexus to go with the ES in

a 300h version alone may be unadventurous but represents a low-damage option (though it remains to be seen if IS sales will be cannibalised).

Any new toys added to the base model as single optionals or within packages in order to broaden attractiveness will be welcome as long as their

quality and reliability in respect of equivalents offered by competitors are sufficiently high. 

 

[talaipwros]

 

Quote

 

ES 350

Starting at

• $38,950*
• 268horse power

 

•  

  Quote

   

  • GS 300

    Starting at
  • $46,310*
    RWD
  • 241 Horse power

   

These are prices from the official US website Lexus.com

so, ES should be 20% cheaper than the GS or someone is tring to empty our pockets

[ColinBarber]

4 minutes ago, talaipwros said:

so, ES should be 20% cheaper than the GS or someone is tring to empty our pockets

That is the old ES though, and it has less equipment as standard compared to the GS. I wouldn't expect the UK ES to be priced much cheaper than the current GS 300h.

[talaipwros]

in that case good luck selling this, unless it is offered with an amazing standard equipment

[Linas.P]

Lexus prices in US is completely different story altogether... it is not indicative at all. There is no way ES will be 20% cheaper then GS... Looking at base prices IS300h is £32k and GS300h is £36k, so if ES going to be 20% cheaper it would mean cheaper then IS.... that is not going to happen. My feeling is that it will be at exactly the same price point as old GS, maybe a little cheaper at £35k, but I see no reason why it cannot be priced even more expensive... e.g. RC300h starts at £39k now, which is effectively 2 door version of IS.... so from range perspective it wouldn't look wrong to sell ES even for say £37k, considering it will have more equipment then both IS and RC.

Now as well I agree that at such price point it will be tough sell... certainly I cannot see myself buying it in any shape or form. If I want 4 door car I will get IS, if I want coupe I will get RC... why on earth would I get FWD 4 door coupe... in itself is very niche market (4 door coupes) designed for very special needs an taste.

[ColinBarber]

4 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Now as well I agree that at such price point it will be tough sell... certainly I cannot see myself buying it in any shape or form. If I want 4 door car I will get IS, if I want coupe I will get RC... why on earth would I get FWD 4 door coupe... in itself is very niche market (4 door coupes) designed for very special needs an taste.

It isn't a coupe.

Your argument is valid for yourself but others want more space and refinement over the IS. To say there is no point in the ES because the IS exists is the same as saying the 5 series shouldn't exist because there is the 3 series, or the A6 shouldn't exist because the A4 is all you need.

[Linas.P]

14 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

It isn't a coupe.

Your argument is valid for yourself but others want more space and refinement over the IS. To say there is no point in the ES because the IS exists is the same as saying the 5 series shouldn't exist because there is the 3 series, or the A6 shouldn't exist because the A4 is all you need.

I didn't say there is no point in ES, what I said it is more niche offer, rather then mainstream...

GS is equivalent to A6 and 5-Series, not ES... ES is half class down from GS, there is no other way around it. BMW has that as well... But that is because they sell so much cars it make sense for them to subdivide the classes to fill all the niches. It has 4-Series Ground coupe, which is sort of Series 4.5, then it has proper 5 series, and then Series 6 Grand Coupe, which is sort of Series 5.5. ES is exactly series 4.5, it is below GS, always been and will continue to be. Maybe Lexus slightly enlarging it and sprinkling with few extra features makes it more like 4.7, but make no mistake it is not competitor for BMW 5..  I know Lexus would like it to be, the journalist claims it to be, but facts just doesn't add-up.

And to be honest I never understood existence of Audi A5 saloon (they call it 4 doors coupe) or BMW 4 Series Grand Coupe. For me A4 and BMW 3 seems good enough for entry level luxury segment. However, I do understand 6 Series Grand Coupe, MB CLS and Audi A7... that is when you want large luxury coupe, but don't want your passengers to get in via folding seats... sounds like typical first world problem, but it was big enough problem that Germans replaced reclining seats with extra pair of doors "clap clap"...

 

[rayaans]

7 hours ago, talaipwros said:

in that case good luck selling this, unless it is offered with an amazing standard equipment

Cant be any worse than the current GS though can it really.

[Linas.P]

32 minutes ago, rayaans said:

Cant be any worse than the current GS though can it really.

Previous LS ... 

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I didn't say there is no point in ES, what I said it is more niche offer, rather then mainstream...

The GS is niche, the ES outsells it 5:1 in the US.

[dutchie01]

2 minutes ago, ColinBarber said:

The GS is niche, the ES outsells it 5:1 in the US.

In Europe every Lexus is niche.

in the States however...

[Linas.P]

Comparing with US is a bit pointless, because in US they sell IS350/RC350... so what? They sell LX and GX there.. so what?

ES was car designed for american loafy taste and was one of 2 models initially launched, ES is significantly cheaper then GS in US as well and overall Lexus brand have completely different meaning there as it has here. I tend to believe americans don't really understand IS or GS very well, for them it is more like "too European" looking cars, sculpted too much... they like fat loafy cars with enormous spaces inside on tiny little wheels. So for example whereas here we consider standard executive taxi to be A6/BMW 5-Series or MB E-Class.. in US they consider normal to see Lincoln, Mercury and since 1989 Lexus... The European makes are actually considered "exotic there" and their sizes are completely different... ES in US makes for family "sedan"... so it sorts of get's being FWD and considering it is as well competitively priced it makes sense.. Here in EU it will target mid-size luxury/sporty market...

I think in EU we have more distinctive sizes like entry luxury "sedans", and then full size saloons, whereas in US they have them as one single group of bloated 4 doors cars. So at least in my opinion initial Lexus take of focusing on GS and IS for EU and probably for ES in US made sense for respective market traditions and expectations.

[TBi]

I always thought the ES was just a rebadged camry, not a standalone Luxury car like the IS or GS. It should be cheaper than the GS.

[Linas.P]

2 hours ago, TBi said:

I always thought the ES was just a rebadged camry, not a standalone Luxury car like the IS or GS. It should be cheaper than the GS.

I definitely was and my view is the same, Lexus boast that they have completely re-engendered it and even if it shares Avalon platform it is not the same car... I am yet to be convince of that.. 

[rayaans]

18 hours ago, Linas.P said:

Previous LS ... 

Yes but different price points and sizes. 

To be fair, the new Avalon reviews are fairly favourable. Redline Reviews did one recently and usually, he's not very fond of Lexus/Toyota - always talking about the Germans. 

[Steve44]

16 hours ago, Linas.P said:

I think in EU we have more distinctive sizes like entry luxury "sedans", and then full size saloons, whereas in US they have them as one single group of bloated 4 doors cars. So at least in my opinion initial Lexus take of focusing on GS and IS for EU and probably for ES in US made sense for respective market traditions and expectations.

Errr.. no we don't - see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_classification  EU has less car classifications than USA

3 hours ago, TBi said:

I always thought the ES was just a rebadged camry, not a standalone Luxury car like the IS or GS. It should be cheaper than the GS.

 

1 hour ago, Linas.P said:

I definitely was and my view is the same, Lexus boast that they have completely re-engendered it and even if it shares Avalon platform it is not the same car... I am yet to be convince of that.. 

ES is based on same platform as the Avalon, but 

it has different body in white

it has extra bracing in rear seats

it has different suspension

it has different interior

it has more sound deadening

etc etc etc

Its built in a different factory production line.  It's a different car.

[Linas.P]

29 minutes ago, Steve44 said:

Errr.. no we don't - see here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_classification  EU has less car classifications than USA

 

ES is based on same platform as the Avalon, but 

it has different body in white

it has extra bracing in rear seats

it has different suspension

it has different interior

it has more sound deadening

etc etc etc

Its built in a different factory production line.  It's a different car.

That doesn't really convince me it is "better" thought ...

As we gone "Wikipedia ways", shall I use it as well:

Quote

The American and Canadian classification of entry-level luxury (formerly dominated by premium marques e.g. Buick, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Chrysler) is a broad category which includes not only compact executive cars, but also midsize to large cars and SUVs such as the Lexus ES, Acura TL, Buick LaCrosse, Lexus RX being similar in price to the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class.[36] However, the ES, TL, and LaCrosse do not fall under the European luxury classification of compact executive car nor are they sold in Europe. The ES and TL actually began as badge engineered versions of the mid-size Toyota Camry and Honda Accord, respectively, retaining the front wheel drive transverse engine layout, whereas Toyota's current Lexus IS does not share a platform with mass market Toyota cars. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luxury_vehicle

Now obviously "nor are they sold in EU" needs updating as ES going to be sold, but the rest of the points remain "broad category", "does not fall under EU luxury classification". So indeed ES is mid-size to large car which by it's size matches that of 5-Series and A6, but is not considered luxury/executive car. I shall I say was.. I still not convinced it has any fighting chance against like BMW 5.

 

[Ian J. Parsley]

I'd be surprised (but some of you may well know better) if Lexus goes much down the "individual options" route for Europe. It's fundamentally not how they do things, and it makes each individual car considerably less profitable. When sales are relatively low to begin with, I don't know why they would do that.

It's an interesting move but it's one of those - for me, the GS was absolutely superb and yet its sales dwindled.

[rayaans]

19 hours ago, Ian J. Parsley said:

I'd be surprised (but some of you may well know better) if Lexus goes much down the "individual options" route for Europe. It's fundamentally not how they do things, and it makes each individual car considerably less profitable. When sales are relatively low to begin with, I don't know why they would do that.

It's an interesting move but it's one of those - for me, the GS was absolutely superb and yet its sales dwindled.

Because the mid saloon segment is literally covered by company cars and fleet vehicles, all being diesel 

[Linas.P]

7 hours ago, rayaans said:

Because the mid saloon segment is literally covered by company cars and fleet vehicles, all being diesel 

Now that is changing slowly towards PHEVs, sadly Lexus missed the boat again, by not offering PHEVs... I am now literally in talks of getting company car and options are S90, 530e, E350e... no GS... 

As for LS, yes that was flagship/limousine, but from "not selling" and "loss making" perspective I am sure it was even worse then GS, but Lexus still keeping it in UK for some reason.. I know deals can be made on GS... I struggle to imagine what sorts of deals are made to sell LS at £99k... are they giving 20k off?

For me it would seem more reasonable to drop LS from UK and introduce new GS.. like 500h L ... not quite competitor for S-Class, but almost there with BMW 7 and Audi A8.

[Ian J. Parsley]

The LS isn't really about profit per se, but indeed about being the flagship. It exists so that, from CT to RX, we can all say we drive the same brand as Harvey in Suits gets driven about in... :)

[rayaans]

8 hours ago, Ian J. Parsley said:

The LS isn't really about profit per se, but indeed about being the flagship. It exists so that, from CT to RX, we can all say we drive the same brand as Harvey in Suits gets driven about in... :)

Similiar to BMW M and Merc AMG cars I guess - hence why we have loads of Mercs and BMWs with inappropriate AMG and M badges

Dread the days when I have to put an F on the RX to fit in with the rest of the population.....