Keyless Entry is it fallible?

[MVrod]

Hello all Lexi fiends,

Just reading on the news about amazon and eBay are being lobbied to stop selling the key readers that are being used to steal keyless equipped cars , so my question is what about the system Lexus uses is it susceptible to these readers and do you think the Lexus is the type of car that has been targeted ? 

Do we have to all have the OAP special of a big yellow steering lock across the wheel (would cramp Lexus owners style IMHO) .

 

 

[Linas.P]

The answer - yes very susceptible. There was video of CT being stolen in seconds. But that is not only keyless cars - all cars with remote/central locking.

The amazon and eBay don't need to be lobbied they need to be fined - clearly those tools have no other purpose but to commit crime, so should not be on sale.

[madasahatter]

7 minutes ago, MVrod said:

Hello all Lexi fiends,

Just reading on the news about Amazon and eBay are being lobbied to stop selling the key readers that are being used to steal keyless equipped cars , so my question is what about the system Lexus uses is it susceptible to these readers and do you think the Lexus is the type of car that has been targeted ? 

Do we have to all have the OAP special of a big yellow steering lock across the wheel (would cramp Lexus owners style IMHO) .

 

 

Yes i would think most key less entry vehicles could be stolen. I also believe Mercedes and Big off roaders are the main targets, reason been are targeted by eastern 

europeans or the likes, forged documents and then resold on. I personally hate key less vehicles, key in a lock has worked for many years. Trouble is all manufactureers

are like sheep one does all do because its better?? 

[Linas.P]

I love keyless, especially the way it works on Lexus - it is so big thing for me that it is part of the reason why I got back to Lexus. To be honest by now most German cars get to the similar level, but say in 2012 BMW/MB had appalling keyless solution. where you could open the door, but still had to enter the key in to start the engine (I guess that mush more secure).

Anyway - the big targets are any expensive German cars and whilst eastern Europeans play part the biggest trade goes outside of EU (fields of stolen cars in Kenya/Uganda/Nigeria/SAR) 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506268/Stolen-car-haul-worth-1million-returns-UK-discovered-UGANDA.html

The reason for that - anywhere in EU they have same database and you would not be able to register stolen car (maybe Russia/Ukraine/Belarus). If any cars gets stolen for eastern EU, then it would be disassembled for parts etc. Therefore targets for EU trade are "common cars" e.g. Audi A4, BMW 3, Golf, Fiesta, Focus etc. and they goes for parts. The big and expensive cars goes outside of EU.

[MVrod]

Well I am looking at a 62 plate IS250 and will purchase if it is still around in May I will therefore rig a switch to disable the shift lock until I am in the car methinks as no scroat is going to have mine.

[MVrod]

3 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

I love keyless, especially the way it works on Lexus - it is so big thing for me that it is part of the reason why I am sticking with Lexus. To be honest by now most German cars get to the similar level, but say in 2012 BMW/MB had appalling keyless solution. where you could open the door, but still had to enter the key in to start the engine (I guess that mush more secure).

Anyway - the big targets are any expensive German cars and whilst eastern Europeans play part the biggest trade goes outside of EU (fields of stolen cars in Kenya/Uganda/Nigeria/SAR) 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3506268/Stolen-car-haul-worth-1million-returns-UK-discovered-UGANDA.html

The reason for that - anywhere in EU they have same database and you would not be able to register stolen car (maybe Russia/Ukraine/Belarus). If any cars gets stolen for eastern EU, then it would be disassembled for parts etc. Therefore targets for EU trade are "common cars" e.g. Audi A4, BMW 3, Golf, Fiesta, Focus etc. and they goes for parts. The big and expensive cars goes outside of EU.

read the article and is an interesting read but no mention of anyone being caught or prosecuted.

[Linas.P]

No... In UK car crime is almost decriminalised nowadays - so you very rarely see any prosecution. As for criminals themselves - stolen cars are worth very little (I heard that the actual people who steals the cars gets £500-2000, regardless of the car). If they are in any doubt or suspect something they will simply dump the cars - as such you will rarely see anyone arrested in these raids.

I have red the article from eastern EU about raids on car breakers (the ones who steal for parts) and even though many arrests are made, very few gets prosecuted and the jail time is very rare and very low. The reason for this - usually there are gaps in the chain, so depending where they get caught only limited liability can be proven. Police tracks down the garage where car is being dismantled (usually they can dismantle the entire car in 8-24h after it being stolen) and rounds up everyone in the garage (say 10 people), but there are no tools for stealing only normal garage tools - they  all claim that it is their friend car they were asked to "repair". Most say, they just hanging around and have nothing to do with car altogether. Obviously, everyone gets arrested, but probably only 1 or 2 going to be charged... likely because they own garage, were closest to the vehicle or had similar charges previously - 8 going to get away without any charge. Other 2 probably going to be charged with minor crime like "assisting the crime" - because no actual link can be proven between steeling and the people disassembling. And that is in eastern EU where law is much more straightforward and the requirements for proving it are much lower then in UK. I guess in UK even those last 2 get away, because police would not be able to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" they have stolen the car.

The biggest penalty and highest risk of prosecution is literally straight after the car being stolen e.g. when they get into the car and drives away. Most of the time they have tools for the crime with them and are clearly in stolen car. Therefore you will see unbelievable car chase scenes in such circumstances. But realistically very few gets intercepted... majority gets intercepted in later stages where culpability for the crime or the criminals themselves are very hard to establish.

[johnatg]

I guess that's all true - there are reports today of the very low rate of house burglary attendance by the police, let alone detection or prosecution. And I would expect taking a car without intrusion into a house to be rated even less seriously than burglary. Keyless cars are more susceptible than just remote centrally locked cars because you can not only open the door but also start and drive the car without the key with one of these wireless devices. And central locking only remotes are generally passive until you press a button - they don't respond to an enquiry signal so these responder devices don't work with them.

There are some things you can do - keep your car keys as far away from the front of the house as possible and preferably inside a metal box. Don't forget the spare key - maybe take the Battery out of that until you need it. And don't use the keyfob locking/unlocking facility especially in public car parks - use the door button instead - that way you're not transmitting a code to anyone around and the signal can't be interrupted to intercept locking of the car. And check that the car is locked (try a back door) before walking away.

But the market for Lexus and in particular parts is going to be a lot less than for prestige and common makes - the most vulnerable these days are Ford Fiestas which I guess are mostly stolen for parts.

[Vince Donald]

I listen to the Security Now podcast and this topic was covered on one episode of that.

The keyless entry are especially susceptible because of how they work.  What they criminals do is they have a couple of bits of equipment which are basically like receiver/transmitters which work at the frequencies used by the car manufacturers, they are linked by what in effect are wifi modems, so basically one piece of equipment is place close to your key (ie near your front door) and the other is placed by your car where you would normally stand to open the door, the equipment basically relays the comms between the car and key , so the car thinks the key is right by the car, so opens, and again thinks the key is then in the car and theres not a lot the car manufacturers can do to defeat this.

In theory, they could limit the time allowed for a response since the signals are being relayed so this adds a small propagation delay but this is so tiny it would need extremely expensive electronics to try and defeat the  "hack".  I just turn it off at home since you can disable the key with a few button presses, but elsewhere I don't as they would need to know exactly where you are to get close to your key.

As Steve Gibson, the security expert on the podcast often says, security and convenience are often not compatible with each other.

 

Vince

[Linas.P]

@johnatg - that if one of great side of having rare car, Lexus'es are not popular for parts, even less popular as whole car for non-EU trade. 

One simple solution would be engaging imobiliser when key is not detected in car. Currently, once you start you can drive forever unless you stop and shut down the engine. If car would continuously check for key proximity the car would simply stop after 100 meters.

Car biometric security options are available for more then decade now, but had no particular interest from owners or manufacturers and it would be both secure and convenient - in fact you wouldn't even need the key, it would be as simple as unlocking your smartphone.

[sorcerer]

I know this is a very serious topic and I certainly don't want to become a victim but in one sense I think it's a bit overblown.

I have an RX450h with keyless entry/stop/start and as we know, these systems work by proximity to the car. I noticed that when I approach the car, the interior lights come on and the puddle lights in the door mirrors activate. However, I have to be within six feet of the car for this to happen, which means that even using a relay box, the criminal has to be within about 12 feet maximum of the car, ie, 6 feet from key to relay box plus 6 feet from relay box to car.

I suppose that when parking in a public area someone could be close enough but when at home, surely it shouldn't be difficult to keep the keys more than 12 feet away from the car?

Having said that, I keep the keys in a Faraday pouch and also use a StopLoc Pro Elite steering wheel lock whenever I leave the car. Hopefully, the sight of the Stoploc alone will act as a deterrent and get the ne'er-do-well's to move on somewhere else.

[J Henderson]

I always lock my car by pressing the little button on the door handle - twice, to also engage the deadlocks.

Am I right in thinking that these devices the thieves are using will just open the car up completely anyway? ie: deadlocks and all?

[ColinBarber]

18 minutes ago, J Henderson said:

Am I right in thinking that these devices the thieves are using will just open the car up completely anyway? ie: deadlocks and all?

Yes, deadlocks are only there to stop the door being opened from the inside (smash window and reach in).

[ColinBarber]

2 hours ago, Vince Donald said:

In theory, they could limit the time allowed for a response since the signals are being relayed so this adds a small propagation delay but this is so tiny it would need extremely expensive electronics to try and defeat the  "hack".  I just turn it off at home since you can disable the key with a few button presses, but elsewhere I don't as they would need to know exactly where you are to get close to your key.

I think it would actually be quite cheap to implement the timing element to the system, but I'm not sure Toyota or anybody else is doing it yet which is a shame.

[johnatg]

43 minutes ago, sorcerer said:

I know this is a very serious topic and I certainly don't want to become a victim but in one sense I think it's a bit overblown.

I have an RX450h with keyless entry/stop/start and as we know, these systems work by proximity to the car. I noticed that when I approach the car, the interior lights come on and the puddle lights in the door mirrors activate. However, I have to be within six feet of the car for this to happen, which means that even using a relay box, the criminal has to be within about 12 feet maximum of the car, ie, 6 feet from key to relay box plus 6 feet from relay box to car.

I suppose that when parking in a public area someone could be close enough but when at home, surely it shouldn't be difficult to keep the keys more than 12 feet away from the car?

Having said that, I keep the keys in a Faraday Pouch and also use a StopLoc Pro Elite steering wheel lock whenever I leave the car. Hopefully, the sight of the Stoploc alone will act as a deterrent and get the ne'er-do-well's to move on somewhere else.

Well a lot of cars, Mercedes, BMWs and Ford Fiestas in particular have been stolen in this way.

The devices you can buy on amazon and eBay for £257 work up to about 30 metres from the key, without obstruction. Metal and walls etc reduce the range but by some random amount. The further from the front of the house and the more metal in the way, the better. The Faraday pouch is a good idea, so obviously you do take it seriously - probably more so than the rest of us, until now!

[ColinBarber]

39 minutes ago, sorcerer said:

 which means that even using a relay box, the criminal has to be within about 12 feet maximum of the car, ie, 6 feet from key to relay box plus 6 feet from relay box to car.

No, they use a two box system. One near your key, the other by your car. They use a different technology to transmit between the two devices, the distance can be 100s of metres.

The device nearest your key can also use a more sensitive receiver/stronger transmitter so it can be further away from the key than 12 feet.

[Linas.P]

45 minutes ago, sorcerer said:

Which means that even using a relay box, the criminal has to be within about 12 feet maximum of the car...

That is why they have independent receiver and transmitter. The person with receiver comes close to your house and amplifies the signal which would pick-up the key fob signal from further than 6-12 feet. Another person stands next to the car which can be even several 100's of meters away and receives the signal via relay and transmits it to the car - car thinks that key is in proximity.

Faraday cage pouch does block it however.

... @ColinBarber was faster! 

[sorcerer]

Ah right, didn't realise that the gadgetry they were using was so powerful.

It may not look pretty but in tests it took more than five minutes to defeat the Stoploc Pro Elite, which is why I hope the scrotes move on to an easier target instead of making lots of racket hammering, grinding or sawing it off  

 

 

[Linas.P]

To be honest it doesn't matter how long it takes to defeat the locks... as long as they are bright and visible - that is biggest deterrence. My point - yes it will work fine - it is big and yellow and as you said "scrotes will look for easier target (always)".  It is sad UK is back to 90's where you cannot simply lock your car and expect it to be were you left next day - I have a feeling we going to go back to "secret" switches, alarms which goes-off from the falling leaf, wheel and gear locks and other "custom" security nonsense which was already on the way out just few years ago.

Problem is that police tactics against car theft is outdated - they still looking at it as if the thief going to try to keep the car in it's entirety. That is not the case, thieves realised that and now their tactics is obviously to minimise risk - e.g. flash dismantling, segregation of tasks etc. The law has to change accordingly e.g. so that the person found with single stolen part can be charge for theft - not merely for handling of stolen goods. Finally, in UK police tactics seems to be even worse then elsewhere - it ends with "call your insurance". No! wait a second - it is your job to investigate the crime, insurance is my problem not yours, so I claim it when if feel like so! Now go on and fount the thief!

[Linas.P]

Oh... here is the video I've mentioned with CT - took about 15s to steal: