Congestion charges and Euro ratings

johnatg · April 5, 2018

I see this morning that Bath may be going to introduce a congestion charge according to Euro emissions ratings (and some other cities already have)

I visit Bath quite often as my daughter lives there, although I haven't driven into the city itself for quite some time. (Use the handy bus pass!!!!)

The key ratings are Euro 4 and Euro 5. UK market IS250s met Euro 4 from 2005 to 2010. From 2011 onwards they met Euro 5.

Not sure about diesels, but more restrictions can be expected!

jackcramerr · April 5, 2018

When are they going hybrid or electric only?

I personally think diesel are done with and petrol is also outdated unless hybrid.

Bluesman · April 5, 2018

I don't see how we will ever go full electric with cars. Yes, sure there will be some around but that will only be for those who have private land to enable a charging system installed. There are millions of people who live in the inner cities that cant get their cars within a bus ride of where they live so charging for them is going to be at best difficult at worst impossible. The best the world can hope for is to get rid of diesel and all new cars to be made Petrol Hybrid, this gets rid of the need to constantly plug your car in for charging. There is lots of energy lost in cars that design engineers need to recapture and this will further help the Hybrid.

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

"Outdated" are the roads in UK. Most of modern cars are fine in free flowing traffic, what causes pollution is congestion. And congestion is caused by the roads which were designed with 19th century in mind and are no longer sufficient. Considering that government has over 30bn of unspent extra cash from motorists every year they should get on fixing this.

Back to the EU standards - I don't know about Bath, but at least in London (proposed new congestion area) IS250 and IS220d would be exempt, so I would be quite surprised if Bath would use different approach or different standards.

3 minutes ago, Bluesman said:

I don't see how we will ever go full electric with cars. Yes, sure there will be some around but that will only be for those who have private land to enable a charging system installed. There are millions of people who live in the inner cities that cant get their cars within a bus ride of where they live so charging for them is going to be at best difficult at worst impossible. The best the world can hope for is to get rid of diesel and all new cars to be made Petrol Hybrid, this gets rid of the need to constantly plug your car in for charging. There is lots of energy lost in cars that design engineers need to recapture and this will further help the Hybrid.

very well said... I was toying with electric idea for a while, but there is no way for me to have it. It is hilarious when politician starts boasting about "green" initiatives and blaming motorists for pollution.

Where I live fully electric car is out of question (Tesla, BMW i3, Leaf or any other fully electric/quick charging cars). That is because electrical installation is not rated for such load (the apartments were build in 12/2015, I moved into brand new flat on 03/2016). You can charge plug-in hybrid from normal socket, but only if you can somehow take the cable to the parking lot. I have seen 2 charging points, because in those spaces people have their flat wall against the parking lot and they simply drilled hole from apartment into the parking lot - so there are 2 BMW 330e.

Now going into where I drive to - Tower Hamlets (Canary Wharf, Wapping). In 2009 council introduced 660 discounted parking spaces for electric cars. In 2011 same council removed all but 30 places - quoting that scheme was "too successful" and "electric car adoption challenged public transport". As such even if I invest all that money to electric/phev I would have nowhere to park. Talking about those remaining 30 spaces, they are all in 2 multi-store parkings which are crazy expensive. I currently pay £5/day for my ICE parking. For EV/PHEV I would only have an option to pay £25+1.2/day or flat £2.7/h +7.70/Month (both effectively in excess of £20/day).

So yes - in this rate we will never have electric cars... even even if we do without massive boost to maybe nuclear power we would have no way to produce enough electricity.

NemesisUK · April 5, 2018

On-street charge points, monies available but total lack of interest..

"The purpose of the Scheme is to increase the availability of on-street charging points in residential streets where off-street parking is not available, thereby ensuring that off-street parking is not a pre-requisite for realising the benefits of owning a plug-in electric vehicle."

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/672818/residential-on-street-chargepoints-plug-in-electric-vehicles-grants.pdf

"Residents can put in a request with their local authorities for On-Street chargepoints"

https://pod-point.com/landing-pages/on-street-residential-chargepoint-scheme

"Uptake of the On-Street Residential Chargepoint scheme has been described as 'extremely disappointing'"

"Just Portsmouth city council, Cambridge city council, Luton borough council, Kettering borough council and the royal borough of Kensington and Chelsea have utilised the scheme so far, prompting ministers Jesse Norman and Claire Perry to pen a letter urging councils to take action."

"According to the Department for Transport, there is still £4.5 million left in the fund – enough to fund thousands of extra charge points."

https://uk.motor1.com/news/227431/residential-chargepoint-scheme-disappointing/

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

That is apples vs. oranges - this is used as vague disinformation to detract from actual problems and results.

Firstly - Residential points is exactly that - It is for people with resident permits to park their own cars. For me driving to work that is useless.

Secondly, from opposite perspective there is obvious reason for lack of interest - what is the point for me to invest into PHEV/EV and apply for residential charging point if I have nowhere to drive the car, because in my destination there are no charging points - which leads back to first reason.

Tertiary - the information above doesn't take a lot of practical issue into consideration e.g. infrastructure on the street. So the council can only install the point where there are already sufficient connection. As such maybe 90% of people who applied found they they cannot get the grand. So it is not lack of interest, but lack of comprehensive offer. How do I know - it is because I tried myself and find out, that I cannot have "fast charging point", which limits choice already and further even for "slow charging point" I need to find the way to get the cable from my home to my parking lot myself.

So lack of interest is from government to government, not from motorists. Central goverment gave stupid (little) amount of money and local goverment could not care less to do anythign with it. £4.5 million left - That is exactly what I have called hilarious. For some perspective:

Money unspent from motoring related duties £30bn (that is 30,000 millions)
Failed "Garden bridge project" £200million, 37million lost without any result after cancellation.
Bojo superhighway £50-70million - mostly unused.

Here we are taking about £4.5million to boost electric cars - that is teardrop in the sea... disgusting.

For any scheme to work it could be centralised and comprehensive, but first we need to understand the underlying infrastructure. UK already faces electricity shortages - there are no capacity for electric cars unless we get maybe 8 new nuclear power stations by 2030. Secondly, electrical installation in residential areas are "light duty", not fit for purpose to charge large number of electric cars, so all that needs to be updated... and then every single EV/PHEV drivers needs charging point, both at home and in the destination (and sometimes in between). That is probably on average 2.5 charging points for every single EV car.

Now I read there is plan for 120 new charging point's in London by 2020 and another 160-180, by 2025. That is almost funny... but is not... it is actually disgusting. There are ~600 petrol stations in London. Each station has ~6-8pumps for petrol and diesel each, so ~15 cars can be refueled on the same time. Additionally, it take 1 minute to refuel petrol car and 30 minutes to recharge EV... so in comparison there will be effectively 300 charging points in London by 2025, which will be comparable to 0.6 (because 300/30/15) petrol pump in capacity vs 600 petrol pumps and the ration will be 1:1000.... and they are "serious" about pollution solving and electric car uptake...

johnatg · April 5, 2018

Quote:

'Back to the EU standards - I don't know about Bath, but at least in London (proposed new congestion area) IS250 and IS220d would be exempt'

Not so in France, though - Euro 5 petrol cars get a Crit-Air 1 sticker, Euro 4 petrol cars and Euro 5 and 6 diesel cars get a Crit-Air 2 and Euro 4 diesels get a Crit-Air 3 sticker. And it's not just a charge - complete bans during more or less working hours come into force progressively at the Authorities' whim.

And I can't get a Crit-Air sticker at all for my MX-5 (pre-1997) - no more 'driving through Paris in a sports car with the warm wind in (my) hair' !

Bluesman · April 5, 2018

It is noticeable that if you go into motorway service areas up and down the UK they are shutting down disabled parking bays and replacing them Tesla charging points. Thanks Tesla. As if life isn't tough enough already for us disabled car drivers.

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

For me all that is all pointless - the problem we have are not pollution standard, the problem is the roads capacity (or lack of it). It is not-OK to be in standstill traffic or traffic jam. I know we increasingly getting used to that... to the level that is almost new norm. But that is not normal - in fact it should never ever happen unless there is emergency e.g. accident. On all other occasions for every single minute of traffic one politician should be publicly hanged.

NemesisUK · April 5, 2018

Cars are too affordable these days...

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

That is one of contributing factors - agree. As well driving licenses and roads are "too inclusive" - there are far too many people who should not be on the roads (I am not trying to "act-a-god" - just purely based on their driving-ability).

Obviously, it is not possible to point out one single factor as this is very complex situation, but there are solutions for it and they are all in government control... government just ignores and cashes-out. It is same like continue selling ticked into fully booked theater and then blame guests for standing. Option 1 - don't sell the tickets "Singapore style" or Option 2 - for the tickets income build extra capacity. What governments does - it keeps selling tickets, but when it comes to boosting capacity they point fingers to everyone - typical fraudster manner.

is200 Newbie · April 5, 2018

All this money the government is taking from the motorist - for what ..... The privilege to drive on less than 3rd world roads in most cases ... ridiculous !!

Pot hole heaven !

April 5, 2018

typical fraudster manner.

Nail - head - hit

VED raises about 6billion. It just goes in the pot.

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

Indeed.... and for a while I was like - "ohhh those UK drivers whinging about pot holes - they haven't seen potholes in the country I came from".. however, this year I must say it is worse in UK then in poor eastern EU country. What is most annoying for me is that they have the money to paint new lines (over pot holes) they have money to build new speed humps every 10 meters (on 30MPH roads, where they should not be installed, each cost over £10k), the useless islands every 50m or so, the segregated cycling lanes on the road where one cyclist cycles per day, narrow gates, unnecessary no-turn signs with ANRP... but they have no bloody money to fix simple potholes!

That seems to be just a matter of simply wrong priorities.

ohh and remember this? £500k ******** hilarious...

NemesisUK · April 5, 2018

Perhaps the Japanese have the solution?

"Get your parking certificate. Without a parking certificate, you won’t be able to bring your new car home - as all cars must have a registered parking space and parking on the roadside is prohibited."

https://transferwise.com/gb/blog/buying-a-car-in-japan

Our guide whilst in Japan confirmed, without a parking space, certificated and paid for, you can't take delivery of your (paid for) car ...

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

That would be fine (as per my previous "Option 1" - stop selling tickets) - except of last 3 words

Quote

(paid for) car ...

Because what that makes - "sell the tickets, but do not allow to enter"....

You simply should not be allowed to buy, they need to ask for the certificate before you buy. That is why I have mentioned Singapore - there you have to get permit, before buying the car. The permit lasts 10 year, and then you need to extend it. I think that is not ideal either, but lets face it - we have no issue with space like Singapore or Japan. In fact only 3% of space is used in UK, not even 1% is used for the roads.

Therefore in UK I believe Option 2 is better - sell the cars collect the tax and improve the roads. I always like to share this graph (car tax income vs. expenditure):

£36bn raised last year and only ~ £5-6bn allocated to various activities related with transportation (not necessary related to roads and even more not necessary spent, and even even more not necessary spent efficiently if at all).

NemesisUK · April 5, 2018

11 minutes ago, Linas.P said:

You simply should not be allowed to buy, they need to ask for the certificate before you buy

So, the dealership ends up policing the regulations? Not their responsibility. It's up to the purchaser to ensure the vehicle can be parked legally

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

What is wrong with that? Who needs to ensure the legalities of gun trade? Is that the person buying or gun dealer who does the background checks?

No need to over-complicate it - I can write you the system for that in 15 minutes. If you have parking space you call for council worker to confirm it - all good they give you the code, which is registered in database. With new flats even easier - you get your code with your house keys. You go to the dealer with money and the code in hand. Dealer goes to website linked to database - puts the code and enter car reg. Click confirm and all done. If you already used that space for another car, the website declines - sale cannot proceed.

It is dealer work to sell the car, they have to do what they have to do. Maybe counting money is not their job either? Why do they need to take responsibility for counting it right or car being sound and road worthy, maybe everything should be buyers responsibility?

What is more important to me is to know where £30 billions we paid last year to goverment in various motoring duties were spent.. and to be honest I don't want to know as long as there are no pot holes and no traffic jams. Sad reality, that roads are now littered with pot holes and traffic jams just getting worse every day.

Funny enough just got message Yesterday "£305 was paid from you account, you balance is...." that was for "road tax", few weeks ago I got letter showing me how much of my income taxes were spent and where. At very bottom of the list it is "EU contributions" - £52.

So here is the deal - we are exiting EU, which will cause havoc and already causing noticeable havoc which I can feel everyday in my life and finance.. and that is for mere £52/year! Here I am paying bloody £305 and I cannot even drive straight on the road without loosing tire in the pothole! What is even more interesting that I have spent £206 from my income tax on something called "Transport"... so wait what?

Government is not only not accountable for "road tax and duties" £30bn of which are spent on hell knows what, but on top of that they are spending my income tax on some unicorn transport projects, where I don't see any accountability either.

In summary the answer - the goverment needs to be accountable and needs to do policing - now it is just shambles.

jackcramerr · April 5, 2018

Petrol Hybrid is the way to go for now. I never thought I would advocate for a hybrid but I am impressed by it for now.

Only electric is a pain but taxi drivers and delivery folkes swear by it that it works perfectly for them.

Petol hybrid, Plenty of power and very good on the pocket. They are efficient. I look at my is250 as dated smog machine. And diesel as spreading free lung cancer machine ;)

It is all down to personal experince.

Question... even with dpf... how is it acceptable for a diesel to do re gen and dump the soot all at once on the road? Is that not as evil?

Linas.P · April 5, 2018

I am not advocating diesel, however quite clearly people using it wrong and goverment did nothing to educate them (quite opposite actually, was feeding everyone diesel cars troughs the ***).

Diesel is perfectly fine and in long term more environmentally friendly then electric or hybrid electric car if only used ever on motorway. What makes diesel deadly - is short, congested, start/stop city journeys - guess where most people using diesel... on the city rides. If we go back to pre-2000 diesel popularisation era with only 10% of diesel cars and only used by people doing high miles in rural areas... DPF regent would not be a thing. DPF doesn't need to regent under normal circumstances, but our roads in UK are not normal... they are shameful to the level of illegal.

One thing you forgetting - there are tailpipe emissions and there are car life-cycle emissions. Any car with lithium Battery will be terrible on life-cycle emissions, the bigger the Battery the worse. In that respect - Tesla is baby seal killer number 1, however it has 0 tailpipe emissions as any other EV, so it is very preferable in the urban environment.

My point - ICE is not dead and nowhere near, they have their advantages and disadvantages. EV's are great in limited numbers in the cities, but if we would replace all car cars with EV's then we would not only have lung cancer in cities, we would destroy entire planet, that is even before we start discussing how electricity is produced from the coal.