End of The GS in the UK

[Jamesf1]

Having read its a Passt CC rival - Im more in agreement with you to be honest. The GS is a RWD 5 series competitor. The ES is a FWD Passat competitor. This does leave me feeling somewhat underwhelmed. But, I will wait for the ES and hope it suprises me. In a good way.

 

[Jamesf1]

Lexus have announced a new model reveal at the Beijing motorshow at the end of April -looking at the teaser pic of the front grill and the pic Rayaans posted its the New ES...

[rayaans]

11 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Lexus have announced a new model reveal at the Beijing motorshow at the end of April -looking at the teaser pic of the front grill and the pic Rayaans posted its the New ES...

Yes it is, I mentioned that in the post with the pic I posted.

Dont know what people are on tbh - the Arteon is a brilliant car and so is the new A4, even in 190ps FWD 2.0l guise. 

Most people don't care about FWD vs RWD, if you do, get a proper sports coupe. 

There's no reason that Lexus can't drop the 3.5l Twin Turbo into the ES with an AWD setup and call it an ES-F

[Jamesf1]

"Dont know what people are on tbh - the Arteon is a brilliant car and so is the new A4, even in 190ps FWD 2.0l guise."

but the GS isnt a PassatCC or A4 equivalent car. if the ES is a replacement for the GS then it seems like it may be a step down.....

[Linas.P]

Oh yes... it is definitely step down... the only questions is how much "down". Initially, I wasn't so critical because there was a slim chance it is going to be just rebadging thing and new ES will be somewhat in the middle between old loafy FWD ES and RWD GS i.e. MB CLS type of car. 4 door, RWD coupe. And that would have been great!
What actually happened is much more simple - Lexus discontinuing GS and and simply introducing 6th gen ES to worldwide. ES was always disgusting loafy FWD car for americans and the only difference now it is going to be available here. So from my perspective it is massive step down... From A6/5-series/E-Class competitor to Passat/Mondeo/Mazda 6/Honda Accord competitor. For me that outright dumb, because in my opinion IS was already equipped to rival those cars. 

2 hours ago, rayaans said:

Dont know what people are on tbh - the Arteon is a brilliant car and so is the new A4, even in 190ps FWD 2.0l guise. 

Passat CC/Arteon is junk car - I don't care what you say. A4 is fancier version of Passat (mainly because of the Audi badge), but Arteon is actually step down from normal Passat. Based on equipment it is more like inflated version of Golf GTI, every part inside is directly transferred from Golf (including engine). The actual Passat has better standard equipment and overall better value for money. Buying Arteon is reversed economy - you get smaller cars with less equipment, but you pay more because it looks "fancier".

The final elephant in the room will be ES price... from what it is ... it sounds like dub-IS car, but I am almost certain it will be in the price range of RC if not more. If they going to price it with GS... then it is going to be outright suicidal. The obvious choice woudl be to price it with VW Arteon - it's main competitor, but that would be weird to see Lexus focusing on inferiour brand pricing. What next Kia/Hyundai? Maybe Dacia and Renault?

[dutchie01]

Linas are you on drugs?

[Linas.P]

I wouldn't know where to get the stuff Lexus Management team was on when they decided that FWD ES - "will do instead of GS". Except of that - why ask? It looks like I would tell you... 

[Jamesf1]

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lexus-es-previewed-first-official-picture

[rayaans]

8 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/lexus-es-previewed-first-official-picture

Fairly interesting article  but doesn't confirm anything as such that we didnt already know.

Seems like it is going for the 5 series, A6 and E class after all and will be priced as such. 

Linas - pipe down and stop repeating the same thing over and over again - if you wish to make constructive comments, then so be it but nobody really wants to hear your opinions every alternate post

[Linas.P]

Seen that.. but the article is just assumptions and nothing of any substance. There are no arguments to support it will be BMW 5 series competitor either - Passat CC isn't. How they expect to rival 5-series with FWD 4 door coupe.. RWD super-saloon praised for precision steering and superior driving performance. That is counter intuitive.

I can repeat is as much as I like... stop repeating that Arteon is good car, or that FWD is fine for luxury car. No it isn't..

[Jamesf1]

whilst I lament the loss of the GS, we shouldnt let our perception of the current ES cloud our judgment of the new one. Its on a new platform which has beemn well recieved in other models and has LS inspired styling - which is good thing. IF this car has been designed\engineered to step up from the current generation ES to rival that class of car then thats encouraging.

[Linas.P]

23 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

 IF this car has been designed\engineered to step up from the current generation ES to rival that class of car then thats encouraging.

Well that was my hope, but all signs showing otherwise. LS inspired styling is nothing more but new grille and headlight, for comparison you can see mk4 GS before and after facelift - still the same car. So it is not that difficult to figure out what the car will look like:

Take this loaf on wheels:

and add more aggressive grille and headlights:

 

... oh and by the way - I am not challenging the financial sense of this decision. Toyota simply wanted the pie of compact 4 doors coupe market, because it is easier to enter then large/luxury 4 door coupe market (especially in Europe). It as well works well with their new direction to attract more young buyers. So obvious choice was to introduce Avalon to rival cars such as Arteon and CLA. The second thing they realised - you can slap Toyota badge on it and sell it for £27k, or slap Lexus badge on it and sell it for £37k - double the profit margin. So it makes financial sense for Toyota and probably will sell well, but it doesn't make it good car even by the long shot. The sad side of this - in Lexus keeps very lean product line so they could not accommodate ES without sacrificing GS. That is the trend I don't like - instead of improving their offer they just slash any loss making cars and replaces them with some trendy rebadged Toyotas. 

[Martin J]

Recently I drove a couple of thousand kms in a RAV4. I mention this because it shares (most of) the floorpan and firewall with the NX (and the drivetrain in the hybrid version). Despite this, I was surprised (and reassured) by the differences between them. As well as being much better looking, the NX rides and handles much better than the RAV4, is much quieter, and much better built. So sharing the basic platform architecture is a *long* way from "slapping on" a Lexus badge.  I imagine that the new ES will have a similar relationship with the Camry/Avalon. Of course some purists may prefer RWD, but I will take the superior wet weather traction and safer handling of FWD any day. And we can confidently expect some motoring journalists to refer to badge engineering in relation to the ES. That will tell you more about those motoring journalists than it will about the intrinsic merits of the ES. 

[Linas.P]

47 minutes ago, Martin J said:

 but I will take the superior wet weather traction and safer handling of FWD any day.

That is when I say - driving in UK is too inclusive. If someone cannot handle RWD car in wet, then they probably should not be driving at all. Safer handling is as well much more related to driver skill and not the car. Finally, considering that most likely version in UK going to be ES300h it is mundane point - it won't have power to break traction .. any day. Not to mention we are not in 80's and that any reasonable car of today have all stability control systems you can imagine (Lexus being the most intrusive).

[mpls]

On 11/03/2018 at 12:23 AM, Initial P said:

No Diesels no good for the rep mobile crowd ala BMW 520d or in the infamous/typical Vauxhall Insignia SRI (Sales Rep Inside) model.

I love having a car that I hardly see on the road unlike my previous car BMW E60.

 

Regarding diesel, I think this is changing, i know a  mate whos company always used to Diesel cars in their fleet, they are now looking into Hybrids..

I think Lexus needs to further improve (no doubt they would be),  but also  to then tune their hybrids into various guises..  to give a slightly more variation between fuel economy  vs performance..

 

[Linas.P]

Yep... 450h just disappeared. We do have one new option 250h, but that is only available on UX. If they choose to switch to hybrid, then why not offer 200h,250h,300h,450h on every model they offer? Obviously, then the argument goes - but the biggest appeal of Lexus is that is rare and therefore Lexus doesn't want to expand too much to meet everyone needs (that is kind of debunked, by discontinuation of GS).

Overall, I agree - you can have any engine as long as it is 300h doesn't work for me either - very specifically that is why I am stuck with old IS250.

[Jamesf1]

Except of course there are New shape is250’s and 200t, RC 200t. RCF, GS450h, GS250, NX200t - autotrader.com - your hardly stuck on a last gen is250 if you don’t want 300h

[Linas.P]

nah.. that is discontinued as well. Oh and did I mention that stinking Passat CC I had, 2.0t... awfull engine. Oh yes IS200t very similar, reminded me that Passat - massive step down from V6 in mk2. IS300h at least economical, IS200t neither economical, nor fast - total waste of time (damn I forgot not to mess-up with IS200t owners... now some of them going to come and swing racial abuse at me).

[Jamesf1]

Yet the 200 t is both faster and more economical than v6.....

[Linas.P]

Yes - nice comparison, 6 times more expensive as well. One car is 2005 model and costs ~£3000, another is 2013 model and costs £18000. For that money you get ~30 more hp, 0.5s less to 60MPH and 10MPGs, but only if you stick to 65MPH on the motorway, at @90MPH there is hardly any difference and in the city there is no improvement in MPG either. Not to mention it sounds like trash can... though this last bit is subjective... though on second though L4 are not known for beautiful sound, whilst most of V form engines are, kind of uphill battle for anyone reasonable to try to prove this statement wrong - not trying to compare V6 to V8, but still light years better then L4. 

[Jamesf1]

Just responding to your assertion 200t neither fast or economical, yet better than 250 on both counts. Of all the cars you claim to have owned and all the cars available you claim to be stuck in a gen2 250 for the weirdest reasons. 

[Linas.P]

That exactly what I said, in absolute terms IS200t is neither fast nor economical. I never said it is not slightly more economical then IS250, nor that it is not slightly faster... but for 2013 car it is absolute disgrace, whereas IS250 for 2005 car is just about average. Point is - IS200t is not an upgrade for IS250 and therefore I cannot find the justification in it or in the entire Lexus range to upgrade my car. There are cars which I like e.g. I like RC, but not 300h, I like 450h, but not GS... I like RC-F as a whole, but it is not exactly practical car as a daily... so I am a bit stuck. My personal problems with Lexus options were already discussed in great detail, so I don't want to expand to much.

I guess I would wrap-up with stating that loss of GS is not for good, neither new FWD ES... so instead of improving the line-up Lexus continues undermining themselves as serious option for somebody who maybe wants a little bit more then metal can to get from point A to B.

[Chafford1]

9 hours ago, rayaans said:

Yes it is, I mentioned that in the post with the pic I posted.

Dont know what people are on tbh - the Arteon is a brilliant car and so is the new A4, even in 190ps FWD 2.0l guise. 

Most people don't care about FWD vs RWD, if you do, get a proper sports coupe. 

There's no reason that Lexus can't drop the 3.5l Twin Turbo into the ES with an AWD setup and call it an ES-F

Agree the Arteon is a very good car. More spacious than an A5 and approaching it in terms of quality.  

Also agree FWD is not an issue in regular driving.

 

[Linas.P]

In regular driving it is not an issue to drive Nissan Micra or other cheap car. The luxury brands are trying to very hard to differentiate themselves from even remotely "regular", because if they don't why I don't just get Mazda6 or Mondeo for half a price - sorry you need to try harder Lexus.

[dutchie01]

I am really looking forward to the introduction of the new ES/GS  end of this month. It looks very promising indeed given the little bits of information that have been teased so far. What we know is that the car will be longer and lower than the old GS and is aimed directly at the 5 series/A6/E class. The design will trickle down from the LS and especially the interior is likely to set Lexus apart from the sombre BMW interior and the beautifully crafted but cold Audi ones. The Japanese Takumi craft could stand out and make it a special place to sit in. apple car play or Android available? who knows! Then the chassis and underpinnings. If it is based on the new 2018 Camry it will be good news indeed as this car got raving reviews in the motoring press with top notch figures about roadholding, chassis control and cornering, in some reviews it is even placed above the BMW 3 series. So if Lexus can spray a little magic dust on this to give it that little oomph it could be a great car indeed! Drivetrains not confirmed yet but of course a 4 cylinder hybrid unit ( new version with new Battery and more power?) and maybe an F-Sport with a twin turbo 6 pot pumping out 350 hp??  Who knows, but i cant wait as it seems a much more competitive package than the old GS  that was a very disappointing car ithat nobody bought ( a total salesflop tbh)  The king is dead bring on the new one!