End of The GS in the UK

[Ten Ninety]

1 hour ago, Jamesf1 said:

This topic has gone  all beige cardigan

Years ago, when I sold the last in a series of fast cars in order to buy a nicer house, I actually bought a beige cardigan to wear ironically as a reminder of what I'd given up. I promised myself that within 5 years I'd be back in a serious motor.

12 years on, there's still no sign of anything 'interesting' on my drive, and I'm actually happy with that. I don't want the frustration of owning a powerful car and being constantly unable to enjoy its potential. The roads are just too full of 35-driving morons and angry people who want to shout at you just for executing a perfectly safe overtake. In my younger days I honestly never thought I'd lose my love for 'spirited' driving, but clearly I have.

I still have the cardigan, and regularly wear it around the house. It's comfy, easy to get into and inoffensive to look at. Which is just how I like my cars, these days.

[dutchie01]

Could the new ES be the perfect taxi?

not being sarcastic here but reliability plus 4 cyl hybrid plus massive room in the back plus comfort...

depends a bit on the purchaseprice but it will transport its cutomers in style!

[gdh300]

Surprised to find a largely favourable review on the TG website which I assumed would be the usual understeer, oversteer, power tosh. And I quote:

Should I buy one? This is a moment for you to consider what driving you really do, rather than what you would like to do, but don’t. While TG will go to its grave defending your right to having a drift-worthy V8 that consumes tyres and petrol in equal measure, there are some of us who just want or need to get somewhere in the least stressful way possible. Often with luggage and passengers. For those people, cars like the Volvo S90 and now the new Lexus ES are not just a sensible choice, but the correct one.

The new Peugeot 508 also treads its own path by all accounts, wilfully different form the usual (Germanic) suspects. 

Perhaps there's finally the start of seismic shift in the motoring press, from baseball cap to cardigan? I won't hold my breath though!

[st4]

It might be a very good marketing ploy going after the S90 and alternative players rather than going head to head with bmw and Mercedes.

I’d rather have a rear drive car but one of my all time favourites was my old S80. Mainly because it was so comfortable and relaxing to drive.


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[Linas.P]

On 6/16/2018 at 2:52 PM, dutchie01 said:

How about an 130i manual. 320 horses straight six and they are up for grabs. If youre driving it you dont see the outside so dies this tick your box?

No it won't, it is not luxurious or comfortable - it is more small/sports coupe, in which case I would rather go for Nissan 350/370z. Manual gearbox was nowhere on my list either, maybe DSG equivalent or fast auto/seq. Just to be clear I am not looking for track weapon, I do most of my driving on congested London roads. However,  BMW 640 does interest me, BMW 4-series maybe (but it is very poorly equipped).

@First_Lexus - again same argument, 300h was quick enough for your taste. I have nothing against it, you obviously decide for yourself - but to suggest it is enough for everyone is a bit much. Neither it justifies not having faster option, nor it compares with German rivals. And I completely agree that Lexus is level above Germans in terms of equipment and quality, but it doesn't compare well in terms of speed. Take for example BMW530e 6.1s 0-60 and suddenly calling Lexus 8.9s quick enough sounds unjustified, not only that - BMW as well has 20Miles pure EV range and overall better MPG. Now if you make GS300h PHEV which does 0-60 in ~6s it would be completely different story.

I guess my point is - car doesn't need to be slow to be economical, luxurious, comfortable or well built and certainly making slow cars is not the compromise Lexus needs, they have all best tech and large parent company to bank-roll it. It seems just lazy for me... lack of interest to compete, to prove worthy... is pretty much as you described - "oh.. it is quick enough, so we end here as long as people buys it... oh they don't buy it anymore, I guess we close the shop then". That is not how established brands got there, not by doing "just enough", but by continuously improving, by continuously competing. Lexus approach is just lazy - slap universal engine into all cars and call it a day, I don't think it respect me as a customer, hence I cannot justify respecting and promoting the brand. If BMW would have used same lazy philosophy, we would have had BMW 520i for most of 90's, then 525i for 1998-2003, from where we would have had only 530d until ~2016 and then only 530e. With such philosophy BMW would have joined Lexus in competition for niche maker long ago. Respect has to be earned and Lexus has done nothing since release of GS mk3 and release of IS mk2 to earn it.  I mean .. ok there was LF-A, IS-F as sort of showcase models, but that hasn't translated into any useful mainstream model... they kept me stuck in 250 and now further retarded to 300h - as a consumers I am not getting much from Lexus. 450h was legacy from 2005 and now they are dismantling even that, so for me it is just becoming harder and harder to justify respect and loyalty to the brand.

[spacenase]

Linas.P I understand and share your frustration when manufacturers choose not to sell the car you'd most want to buy. I've had similar problems with other manufacturers. Watching the US road tests, it looks like the ES350 might appeal a lot more if Lexus could be persuaded to sell it over here. I think the problem is that they see the mid-luxury saloon car market in the UK (and possibly Europe) as far too small to invest in more options. I think they've just chosen the engine that they think will sell the best and has the image they want to present.

 

[dutchie01]

Well, Lexus follows their own strategy which is completely different than the big Germans. The irony of course is that customers like Linas will fall overboard as vehicles they are looking for will not be developed or built by Lexus. As special part of the Toyota Group Lexus is not looking for volume, their aim is to grow 10% on global sales year on year. They furher want to become a connoiseurs brand chosen by customers that really want it for its styling, imge. TOver thenext couple of years the Lexus brand will be developed into an "international Urban Lifestyle"by adding airport lounges hotels restaurants. The productportfolio is in the middle of an overhaul and my personal guess is that in 2 yrs time it will be  UX-NX-RX-LM( the big SUV no official name yet), the ES - LS and the LC. So it will turn into a SUV manufacturer with some other Halo like cars.( LCF or LS Hydro). main market states and China, europe not so relevant.

and that is were it gets tough for existing loyal european customers looking for another lexus as like Linas the very limited range overhere makes it almost impossible to choose. The only option left is to buy another brand and leave lexusfor maybe in some years time when there are attractive models again.

For info i am also in that position having owned an IS300 for 3 yesr and not wanting to leave Lexus drove an NX for a day did not really like it and then took spin in a Volvo XC40T5. I personally found the difference between these cars truly shockingly big. I could not believe how good the Volvo was after the Lexus. Forr me the NX just feels 2 generations old. I went for the Volvo.....

anyway, just my opinion..

 

  

[First_Lexus]

Interesting @dutchie01how opinions can differ. Before I bought my first NX last year, I looked at the Volvo XC60. Having had Hondas for years I was genuinely shocked by the quality - inconsistent paintwork, poor finishing especially under the bonnet, and some of the panel gaps in the interior were shocking. The test drive revealed rattles on a car only a few hundred miles old.

I can understand that some of the tech in Volvo /BMW etc is ahead of the Japanese brands, but that doesn't bother me. I just want something simple that works. What I couldn't live with is perceived poor quality. That's why I ended up with a Lexus, and in my opinion it is light years ahead on that score. 

Hopefully you'll enjoy your new XC40 - it wasn't released when I looked, so it may be a big leap forward for Volvo. A colleague ended up giving his new S90 back to the lease company after it left him stranded for the third time in so many months (electrical issues). Mind you, that particular individual has gone and got a Peugeot SUV hybrid instead...😂

[Jamesf1]

The plot thickens. The Avensis in the UK is to be replaced by the Camry hybrid - The ES with a Toyota badge and a few £k off the price

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-camry-return-britain-mondeo-hybrid-rival

[Jamesf1]

16 hours ago, dutchie01 said:

Well, Lexus follows their own strategy which is completely different than the big Germans. The irony of course is that customers like Linas will fall overboard as vehicles they are looking for will not be developed or built by Lexus. As special part of the Toyota Group Lexus is not looking for volume, their aim is to grow 10% on global sales year on year. They furher want to become a connoiseurs brand chosen by customers that really want it for its styling, imge. TOver thenext couple of years the Lexus brand will be developed into an "international Urban Lifestyle"by adding airport lounges hotels restaurants. The productportfolio is in the middle of an overhaul and my personal guess is that in 2 yrs time it will be  UX-NX-RX-LM( the big SUV no official name yet), the ES - LS and the LC. So it will turn into a SUV manufacturer with some other Halo like cars.( LCF or LS Hydro). main market states and China, europe not so relevant.

and that is were it gets tough for existing loyal european customers looking for another lexus as like Linas the very limited range overhere makes it almost impossible to choose. The only option left is to buy another brand and leave lexusfor maybe in some years time when there are attractive models again.

For info i am also in that position having owned an IS300 for 3 yesr and not wanting to leave Lexus drove an NX for a day did not really like it and then took spin in a Volvo XC40T5. I personally found the difference between these cars truly shockingly big. I could not believe how good the Volvo was after the Lexus. Forr me the NX just feels 2 generations old. I went for the Volvo.....

anyway, just my opinion..

 

  

I think that as there is so much quality in a Lexus you can become brand blinkered. Im changing my GS to accomodate carrying 2 new dogs. SUV's are not my bag, - simply didnt want an NX or last gen RX (current RX out of budget) so started looking for an estate car - so Lexus was out. Really struggled to move away from Lexus, but found a replacement I'm really pleased with - new Mazda 6 estate in top spec with 2.5 auto. Test drove a pre facelift 2.0 petrol in top spec and the drive was a revelation. The car is so much more alive on the road. And its bursting at the seems with kit, leather etc. Interior space better too. And at least its also Japanese. 

[Linas.P]

17 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

The plot thickens. The Avensis in the UK is to be replaced by the Camry hybrid - The ES with a Toyota badge and a few £k off the price

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-camry-return-britain-mondeo-hybrid-rival

... yes but that makes total sense. They replace smaller (or say less premium) FWD car with bigger FWD car + hybrid upgrade and sells it cheaper then before. If I would be Avensis owner now looking to buy another Avensis I would be very happy about it.

As well it makes sense for Toyota itself - Camry is probably one of the best selling cars of all time (maybe just after Corolla, Golf and Beatle), it is strong on hybrid sales as well. Avensis was critically acclaimed car, but hardly ever massive sales success or market leader, it is mostly European model as well which had no hybrid version. So options they had were to develop brand new platform for Avensis hybrid from scratch or simply replace it by existing model, which is already hybrid is better value for money and actually cheaper to manufacture due to the economies of scale. 

I do agree that this is related in the way Toyota/Lexus trying to optimise their line-up and employ lean manufacturing where possible to increase profitability. Bet whereas Avensis replacement by Camry makes total sense for everyone, replacement of GS with ES is very disappointing. 

[Vlady]

18 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

I think that as there is so much quality in a Lexus you can become brand blinkered. Im changing my GS to accomodate carrying 2 new dogs. SUV's are not my bag, - simply didnt want an NX or last gen RX (current RX out of budget) so started looking for an estate car - so Lexus was out. Really struggled to move away from Lexus, but found a replacement I'm really pleased with - new Mazda 6 estate in top spec with 2.5 auto. Test drove a pre facelift 2.0 petrol in top spec and the drive was a revelation. The car is so much more alive on the road. And its bursting at the seems with kit, leather etc. Interior space better too. And at least its also Japanese. 

Really? Mazda can be compared to Lexus? No offence James (honestly), I always liked Mazda6, the design of it and I have heard it is a good car to drive and I always liked one, even thought I will be considering one when the time comes to change my car (BMW). When I test drove a GS, the same garage had a 2016 Mazda 6, 2.2td with Auto gearbox, beautiful car and everything to my taste, colour, wheels, interior colour, but, when I sat in it after the Lexus (even after BMW) I could not find a single bit of interior that matches Lexus or BMW for quality, it is well screwed together but cheap to touch imo, I sat in the car for 20 seconds and got out disappointed and just admired the car from outside. :)

 

[Jamesf1]

36 minutes ago, Vlady said:

Really? Mazda can be compared to Lexus? No offence James (honestly), I always liked Mazda6, the design of it and I have heard it is a good car to drive and I always liked one, even thought I will be considering one when the time comes to change my car (BMW). When I test drove a GS, the same garage had a 2016 Mazda 6, 2.2td with Auto gearbox, beautiful car and everything to my taste, colour, wheels, interior colour, but, when I sat in it after the Lexus (even after BMW) I could not find a single bit of interior that matches Lexus or BMW for quality, it is well screwed together but cheap to touch imo, I sat in the car for 20 seconds and got out disappointed and just admired the car from outside. :)

 

Didnt say it could.. Quality of plastics isnt the only - or main-  thing I look for in a car.

The key phrase was "found a replacement I'm really pleased with". In response to the other poster who didnt want to leave lexus but found a Volvo that for him blew away an NX.

in terms of quality - material, then no its not on the same level in some areas. Build and reliabilty - time will tell but probably not. But then again my GS isnt on the same level as the Mazda for economy, space, practicality, handling or kit. 

20 seconds is hardly a thorough appraisal though is it?

[st4]

The plot thickens. The Avensis in the UK is to be replaced by the Camry hybrid - The ES with a Toyota badge and a few £k off the price

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-camry-return-britain-mondeo-hybrid-rival

 

This might be a savvy buy [emoji4] - certainly compared to an ES.

 

It seems two very different cars get axed - the GS and avensis and two very similar cars are sold at different price points.

 

If I had an Avensis I’d be ecstatic about this.

 

 

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[Linas.P]

Just need to get few of these and you have yourself Lexus ES for half price 😄 

[st4]

Just need to get few of these and you have yourself Lexus ES for half price [emoji1] 

I like the Camry-it looks nice inside and out and I’d be keen to save money over an ES.

I’d sooner have an IS for rear drive but if faced with two essentially identical transverse mounted hybrids I’d take the Camry and put the money aside for better use.


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[Linas.P]

As I said - it just makes so much more sense for everyone - Toyota, the buyers.. etc.  it is better car with more equipment, hybrid as well and cheaper like for like. It makes sense in competitive environment as well e.g. Avensis was kind of lagging behind Ford Mondeo as realistically current Mondeo is actually rebadged Fusion, which like Camry was mid size car rather then entry/compact. Simply they now going to have more competitive product. Same cannot be said about ES.

[mpls]

The new Lexus ES (7th Gen)  & 6th Gen is based on the Avalon platform (Japan only car) .. 1st to 5th gen ES were based same platform as Camry..

[mpls]

9 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

The plot thickens. The Avensis in the UK is to be replaced by the Camry hybrid - The ES with a Toyota badge and a few £k off the price

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/toyota-camry-return-britain-mondeo-hybrid-rival

 

Not Quite..

Only the first 5 generations of ES were based on the Camry, since the 6th Gen  the ES has been based on the Avalon platform..

As others may have alluded ( as well as some US reviewers) , i think  the new ES may well come with a 4WD variant..

[Vlady]

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

Didnt say it could.. Quality of plastics isnt the only - or main-  thing I look for in a car.

One of the main things to me.

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

The key phrase was "found a replacement I'm really pleased with". In response to the other poster who didnt want to leave lexus but found a Volvo that for him blew away an NX.

in terms of quality - material, then no its not on the same level in some areas. Build and reliabilty - time will tell but probably not. But then again my GS isnt on the same level as the Mazda for economy, space, practicality, handling or kit. 

Agree for most parts, but kit? Is Mazda better specced? Uau! Nice!

8 hours ago, Jamesf1 said:

20 seconds is hardly a thorough appraisal though is it?

It was enough for me to understand that the car is not for me even though I like the way it looks from the outside.

[Jamesf1]

8 minutes ago, Vlady said:

One of the main things to me.

Agree for most parts, but kit? Is Mazda better specced? Uau! Nice!

It was enough for me to understand that the car is not for me even though I like the way it looks from the outside.

Kit same as my GS plus

adaptice headlights

radar cruise

Emergency city braking

powered tailgate

head up display

4 zone climate

heated rear seats

360 parking camera

front/rear cross traffic warning

sunroof

19” wheels

touchscreen

thats all I can think of off the top of my head

 

[Jamesf1]

37 minutes ago, mpls said:

The new Lexus ES (7th Gen)  & 6th Gen is based on the Avalon platform (Japan only car) .. 1st to 5th gen ES were based same platform as Camry..

Actually Camry, ES and Avalon now all share the same platform (TNGA ga-k from memory) The new Rav 4 also uses this platform

[Linas.P]

46 minutes ago, mpls said:

i think  the new ES may well come with a 4WD variant..

In US it will come as AWD and as 350 as well, same as the old one did.. no surprises here. Not in UK thought...

[st4]

In US it will come as AWD and as 350 as well, same as the old one did.. no surprises here. Not in UK thought...

 

The Camry over there has that 350 engine too.

 

They get all the good stuff in the states including the gs300 and gs350.

 

At least we’re getting the Camry. I’m far keener than that as an idea than an ES and it comes down to money.

 

A prestigious car (which a Lexus IS and a Toyota isn’t) shouldn’t have a transverse mounted engine. It just doesn’t sit right with me. I don’t mind having a car with a transverse engine as such but I’m not paying posh car make money for one.

 

 

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[J Henderson]

50 minutes ago, Jamesf1 said:

Kit same as my GS plus

adaptice headlights

radar cruise

Emergency city braking

powered tailgate

head up display

4 zone climate

heated rear seats

360 parking camera

front/rear cross traffic warning

sunroof

19” wheels

touchscreen

thats all I can think of off the top of my head

 

Pretty loaded then. I like how those new Mazdas look. Enjoy the car.